500+ ci LSx
IMHO, piston speed/acceleration is a factor that needs to be looked at as well as piston weight. It has an effect on compression and inertial loads that the rotating/reciprocating parts are subjected to. It may not cause a piston to come flying off the rod, but it could have an effect on the big end distortion.
99% of the time, off the shelf parts are used and are really over-engineered anyways. It's the engines pushing the ragged edge (NASCAR. Pro Stock, etc) that should be concerned.
99% of the time, off the shelf parts are used and are really over-engineered anyways. It's the engines pushing the ragged edge (NASCAR. Pro Stock, etc) that should be concerned.
530 RWHP will not do 10.22 @ 138 in the 1/4 mile. 700 would accomplish that. With a weight of 3700 lbs, do the math HERE. A 3700 lb vehicle that will go 10.22 should have 685 at the wheels and 890 a the flywheel. That's a lot of loss according to them. 20% loss should be right giving it 712 at the wheels which is only 5 RWHP off.
Speaking of, you think 530hp out of a 500ci LSx would be the same as 530hp out of a 347ci LSx?
This thread is right below this one now:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-pump-gas.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-pump-gas.html
When we took the car up to Fastlane to get tuned, thats what they had said. I didn't look at the screen, but that's what they said it had made. Maybe it wasn't a full pull, I dunno.
Speaking of, you think 530hp out of a 500ci LSx would be the same as 530hp out of a 347ci LSx?
Speaking of, you think 530hp out of a 500ci LSx would be the same as 530hp out of a 347ci LSx?
If you seen the car and spoke to the people who built it then there you go, I'm only going by the article I posted. Guess you really shouldn't believe everything you read.
BTW, $51K for 700 RWHP. No freekin' way. Go spend $7K for a TT with fuel pump and injectors. Spend $1,200 for some L92 CNC ported heads, $600 for an LS7 intake, $750 for a cam install kit and put that much to the ground if not more and still have reliability. Shoot!, put in a 413 stroker (LS2) or a 406 (LS1) and make 800+. But $51K for that? Oh I didn't add the $3K + to beef up the drivetrain which you will certianly need. My pockets will never go that deep, even if I DO win the lottery.
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Verdad Gallardo BTW, $51K for 700 RWHP. No freekin' way. Go spend $7K for a TT with fuel pump and injectors. Spend $1,200 for some L92 CNC ported heads, $600 for an LS7 intake, $750 for a cam install kit and put that much to the ground if not more and still have reliability. Shoot!, put in a 413 stroker (LS2) or a 406 (LS1) and make 800+. But $51K for that? Oh I didn't add the $3K + to beef up the drivetrain which you will certianly need. My pockets will never go that deep, even if I DO win the lottery.
That particular 500ci engine is just way under powered "for a 500ci", but I guess its making the power for what it was built for though. There will be other 500ci's coming out soon that will kill that thing.
But yeah, $51K, hilarious.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: Indiana
I agree that spending 51K on a shortblock is crazy. Our shortblocks aren't 51,000.00 though. The cost of our 500ci shortblock outright with the new block, sleeving, machining, billet main caps, bronze lifter bushings, block is decked, hot tanked, stress relieved, finish cylinder honed, align honed, 4.500 stroke crank, Carrillo rods, Wiseco pistons, Comp custom cam, clevite bearings, ARP MSK, 1/2 HSK, Cometic headgaskets, Intake spacer plates to mach your heads, fully balanced, blueprinted and assembled shortblock is only $14,100.00 retail. Sorry for the confusion and please if you send an email and you don't get a response then please call us at 812-948-0011 and I 100% guarantee someone will answer it anytime between 7:30 am - 5:00 pm eastern std. Please let us know if there are any questions we can answer for you about the 500 ci.
I agree that spending 51K on a shortblock is crazy. Our shortblocks aren't 51,000.00 though. The cost of our 500ci shortblock outright with the new block, sleeving, machining, billet main caps, bronze lifter bushings, block is decked, hot tanked, stress relieved, finish cylinder honed, align honed, 4.500 stroke crank, Carrillo rods, Wiseco pistons, Comp custom cam, clevite bearings, ARP MSK, 1/2 HSK, Cometic headgaskets, Intake spacer plates to mach your heads, fully balanced, blueprinted and assembled shortblock is only $14,100.00 retail. Sorry for the confusion and please if you send an email and you don't get a response then please call us at 812-948-0011 and I 100% guarantee someone will answer it anytime between 7:30 am - 5:00 pm eastern std. Please let us know if there are any questions we can answer for you about the 500 ci.
Thanks for the info.
...The cost of our 500ci shortblock outright with the new block, sleeving, machining, billet main caps, bronze lifter bushings, block is decked, hot tanked, stress relieved, finish cylinder honed, align honed, 4.500 stroke crank, Carrillo rods, Wiseco pistons, Comp custom cam, clevite bearings, ARP MSK, 1/2 HSK, Cometic headgaskets, Intake spacer plates to mach your heads, fully balanced, blueprinted and assembled shortblock is only $14,100.00 retail....
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
Piston speed is all good.
It is what makes heads flow and air and fuel move through the cylinder heads.
At a given piston speed the head will get too fast and then it will flow no more or less (aka get turbulent and back up).
With the very large stroke of an engine like ERLs 4.500 inches this means that any given head will peak much earlier in rpm.
This means that a head that is much bigger and better may now be used on the street instead of a 10,000 rpm drag race engine.
This also means that the corresponding amount of power can now be made at this much lower and safer rpm that allows a hydraulic roller or street solid roller with lower pressure springs and longer life parts.
You can't turn "too much piston speed" as the heads will simply give up the ghost and you will be on the downside of the power curve after the engine peaks way earlier.
Again the whole point is that this in turn means you can run these newer crazier bigger heads and bigger cams on the street without needing Ti valves and triple springs and rebuilding the engine every 50 passes.
You can run taller gears and tighter coverters and still absolutely haul *** without turning NHRA PS rpm!
Not a real hard to understand concept!
I am waiting for the ERL 550!
ERL Rocks!
It is what makes heads flow and air and fuel move through the cylinder heads.
At a given piston speed the head will get too fast and then it will flow no more or less (aka get turbulent and back up).
With the very large stroke of an engine like ERLs 4.500 inches this means that any given head will peak much earlier in rpm.
This means that a head that is much bigger and better may now be used on the street instead of a 10,000 rpm drag race engine.
This also means that the corresponding amount of power can now be made at this much lower and safer rpm that allows a hydraulic roller or street solid roller with lower pressure springs and longer life parts.
You can't turn "too much piston speed" as the heads will simply give up the ghost and you will be on the downside of the power curve after the engine peaks way earlier.
Again the whole point is that this in turn means you can run these newer crazier bigger heads and bigger cams on the street without needing Ti valves and triple springs and rebuilding the engine every 50 passes.
You can run taller gears and tighter coverters and still absolutely haul *** without turning NHRA PS rpm!
Not a real hard to understand concept!
I am waiting for the ERL 550!
ERL Rocks!
Piston speed is all good.
It is what makes heads flow and air and fuel move through the cylinder heads.
At a given piston speed the head will get too fast and then it will flow no more or less (aka get turbulent and back up).
With the very large stroke of an engine like ERLs 4.500 inches this means that any given head will peak much earlier in rpm.
This means that a head that is much bigger and better may now be used on the street instead of a 10,000 rpm drag race engine.
This also means that the corresponding amount of power can now be made at this much lower and safer rpm that allows a hydraulic roller or street solid roller with lower pressure springs and longer life parts.
You can't turn "too much piston speed" as the heads will simply give up the ghost and you will be on the downside of the power curve after the engine peaks way earlier.
Again the whole point is that this in turn means you can run these newer crazier bigger heads and bigger cams on the street without needing Ti valves and triple springs and rebuilding the engine every 50 passes.
You can run taller gears and tighter coverters and still absolutely haul *** without turning NHRA PS rpm!
Not a real hard to understand concept!
I am waiting for the ERL 550!
ERL Rocks!
It is what makes heads flow and air and fuel move through the cylinder heads.
At a given piston speed the head will get too fast and then it will flow no more or less (aka get turbulent and back up).
With the very large stroke of an engine like ERLs 4.500 inches this means that any given head will peak much earlier in rpm.
This means that a head that is much bigger and better may now be used on the street instead of a 10,000 rpm drag race engine.
This also means that the corresponding amount of power can now be made at this much lower and safer rpm that allows a hydraulic roller or street solid roller with lower pressure springs and longer life parts.
You can't turn "too much piston speed" as the heads will simply give up the ghost and you will be on the downside of the power curve after the engine peaks way earlier.
Again the whole point is that this in turn means you can run these newer crazier bigger heads and bigger cams on the street without needing Ti valves and triple springs and rebuilding the engine every 50 passes.
You can run taller gears and tighter coverters and still absolutely haul *** without turning NHRA PS rpm!
Not a real hard to understand concept!
I am waiting for the ERL 550!
ERL Rocks!
Erik's point is you don't NEED to spin big rpms with 500ci, and if you do you'll be way past the heads anyways, so the "max rpm" concept is moot. BTW, the 4.5" stroke at 7k-rpm does the same piston speed as a stock Honda S2000 motor at 9k-rpm -- (~5000fpm). But it is piston acceleration that really determines the stress on the parts, and in that you'll have to spin the 4.5" combo to 7700 to match the Honda (~5100 G's)
For comparison's sake and give some perspective on what standard shelf parts are capable of, Joe and Amber's 408 does 10000+rpm with a 4" stroke and nothing fancy in the shortblock, producing 7000fpm and 8300 Gs of piston acceleration. F1 engines do ~4700fpm and ~8200 Gs and NHRA Pro-Stock is well over 9000 Gs.
For comparison's sake and give some perspective on what standard shelf parts are capable of, Joe and Amber's 408 does 10000+rpm with a 4" stroke and nothing fancy in the shortblock, producing 7000fpm and 8300 Gs of piston acceleration. F1 engines do ~4700fpm and ~8200 Gs and NHRA Pro-Stock is well over 9000 Gs.
Last edited by drz; Feb 5, 2009 at 12:22 AM.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
That's an open ended question. Probably with a strong rod and light pistons and a fully counterweighted crank maybe 10,000 rpm easy probably more but almost no head imaginable would make power up there so it wouldn't matter.
"Safely" would depend on the power being made and on all the parts and the crank and damper etc. of course but less rpm for a long time obviously. RPM never increases reliability on anything.
A Top fueler can turn over 8,000 rpm while making over 5000 hp or whatever they limit their fuel to now and they are also 4.500 stroke engines swinging ungodly heavy top fuel slug pistons with crowbar piston pins and super heavy and thick rods.
IHRA Pro Stock spins 8,000 rpm with a 5.700 crank and hemi style heads that can flow a lot more air on a given bore than a wedge style NHRA style head. They make 1800 hp NA.
The IHRA "Hemi style" valvetrain is much worse for high rpm than the more wedge style NHRA heads but the IHRA "Hemi" deals don't need to turn 10,000+ rpm either because of their 5.700 stroke cranks.
Most great race style wedge heads make peak power as high as 5500 FPM piston speed so that would mean that possible a full out race version of a 4.500 stroke engine might be able to peak at 7500 rpm or so?
I just built an engine with a 4.250 stroke crank that pulls to 7000 rpm with a hydraulic roller and runs 9.3xs in the quarter and people on here told me it wouldn't pull past 5500! I am running a little more cam and a lot more stroke and the ETs have dropped over half a second. Oh well reality sucks some times.
"Safely" would depend on the power being made and on all the parts and the crank and damper etc. of course but less rpm for a long time obviously. RPM never increases reliability on anything.
A Top fueler can turn over 8,000 rpm while making over 5000 hp or whatever they limit their fuel to now and they are also 4.500 stroke engines swinging ungodly heavy top fuel slug pistons with crowbar piston pins and super heavy and thick rods.
IHRA Pro Stock spins 8,000 rpm with a 5.700 crank and hemi style heads that can flow a lot more air on a given bore than a wedge style NHRA style head. They make 1800 hp NA.
The IHRA "Hemi style" valvetrain is much worse for high rpm than the more wedge style NHRA heads but the IHRA "Hemi" deals don't need to turn 10,000+ rpm either because of their 5.700 stroke cranks.
Most great race style wedge heads make peak power as high as 5500 FPM piston speed so that would mean that possible a full out race version of a 4.500 stroke engine might be able to peak at 7500 rpm or so?
I just built an engine with a 4.250 stroke crank that pulls to 7000 rpm with a hydraulic roller and runs 9.3xs in the quarter and people on here told me it wouldn't pull past 5500! I am running a little more cam and a lot more stroke and the ETs have dropped over half a second. Oh well reality sucks some times.
Check out the block deck spacers by ERL Performance. They use a 1" thick deck spacer like they use in 4 cylinders to make 500ci out of an LS2. A bit pricy but I think its pretty cool.
http://www.inteli-com.com/erl/techbr...eve_Design.pdf
http://www.inteli-com.com/erl/techbr...eve_Design.pdf
530 RWHP will not do 10.22 @ 138 in the 1/4 mile. 700 would accomplish that. With a weight of 3700 lbs, do the math HERE. A 3700 lb vehicle that will go 10.22 should have 685 at the wheels and 890 a the flywheel. That's a lot of loss according to them. 20% loss should be right giving it 712 at the wheels which is only 5 RWHP off.
3700 lbs and 480 rwhp will go 10.2s easy
530rwhp goes 9.50 here at 3200#
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
I got to this thread too late but a lot of the stuff in the beginning is just a big jumble of misinformation. I know SAM's ERL 500 has also gone over 140+ mph with it's pretty mild setup like Brian Nutter said and they were having issues hooking all the power up big time. It made a little over 700hp on the engine dyno at a fairly lower rpm and over 900 Hp with the 200 shot. Gray or "Big Bronco" posted all the correct information for all the LS1tech members a long time ago. The school or SAM as we know it has a huge list of projects on it's plate all the time and is a very busy place to say the least and you guys will see this ERL 500 inch car go MUCH faster here in the near future as well.
I got to this thread too late but a lot of the stuff in the beginning is just a big jumble of misinformation. I know SAM's ERL 500 has also gone over 140+ mph with it's pretty mild setup like Brian Nutter said and they were having issues hooking all the power up big time. It made a little over 700hp on the engine dyno at a fairly lower rpm and over 900 Hp with the 200 shot. Gray or "Big Bronco" posted all the correct information for all the LS1tech members a long time ago. The school or SAM as we know it has a huge list of projects on it's plate all the time and is a very busy place to say the least and you guys will see this ERL 500 inch car go MUCH faster here in the near future as well.
So I guess an engine that only spins 6300 rpm, but makes a ton of power/torque just isn't the right engine for me.
I PM'ed you a question about a 454ci, I have to know something.