JayplaySS

iTrader: (15)

Agreed but as the guys stated, LG and Vengeance are not as willing to disclose the exact cam specs. Pat will actually tell you exactly what to get and why.

He is a great help when choosing a cam.

8ByGoat

iTrader: (2)

And while I understand this.....

If given the choice between (just throwing #'s out there):

1. Knowing the specs and getting 515/500

Or

2. Not knowing the specs and getting 540/520

Which would you choose.

To me personally I could care less about specs as long as the results are there.

Brasil

I concur, results are important, but I live thousands of miles away from some of the most respected LS3 experts in the industry, and cannot have my car tuned and the installation performed at their facility. Given that, I would like to have the cam specs to see if the place that is installing and tuning my car agree with the specs and for materials. All of the cam specs are important to calculate lift, compression, what head gaskets to use, etc...

Stang's Bane

iTrader: (22)

If that is the case just have them spec you a cam. It seems like they are going to have the final say, so just cut out the middle man.

old motorhead

iTrader: (10)

I always have to wonder. Most of the time, it's your car on their dyno with their "secret" cam installed. Always big #'s. Are there any independent tests on the "secret" cams vs. Pat G or other guys cams that aren't so secret? I'll leave the secret cams to those that fall for that BS. Hope you're happy with your cam.

Stang's Bane

iTrader: (22)

.

EDIT: Not going down this road again, disregard what I said.

8ByGoat

iTrader: (2)

Well my secret cam is not secret anymore-I know the specs. I will gladly reveal the specs. Thing is all the "experts" think it is TOTALLY wrong for L92/LS3 heads so I doubt you will ever see anyone else run it (which is fine by me). But there is more to a cam than just "specs". If you found something that really works and it is how you make your living you shouldn't feel obligated to release those specs. I don't have a problem saying because the shop I used closed.

Mine has produced the same power on 4 different dynos-the last time it produced the most ever.

And the timeslip speaks for itself.

10's coming real soon.

zippy

I tune with a wideband. I pretty much have no use for what the stock O2's are reading. I don't like fuel trims that far off though. That leaves little room for error in fuel choices or other. I have alot of extra info in the log for more than just idle tuning. I didn't make a cfg. file just for the idle tuning. The car is tuned with some torque management in it which is why some of that is in there. The oil pressure is in there because I wanted to monitor it on the dyno. I like to see the oil pressure when I turn a stock short block to almost 7000. Some other stuff I didn't need, but was already there for other reasons and didn't take it out. Why would extra info be an issue? Pick something in my list and I'll tell you why it is there. I'm not trying to come off as a smart ***, just giving opinion and info based on personal knowledge. I'm not new at this. I had my own performance business and work for one currently.

Back on the cam thing, the one thing I've really learned over the years is that you will at random see someone take an off the shelf cam which is technically not right for the application and beat someone's time or dyno number with their "secret" cam that they won't show the spec's too. When cam selection is most important seriously is when idle and emissions testing is involved. Even a cam that is too big can often be a decent driver with the right converter and tuning. I once spec'd a cam that had 22 degrees of split between intake and exhaust for a L92 headed 370 in a truck. It ran beautifully, idled very smooth (about as lumpy as a stock LS7), and made peak power at around 6k. It dyno'd at 495hp spinning wheels that were 93lbs each through a 9.5" 14 bolt rear, 4L65E trans, and a 60lb or so 2 piece steel driveshaft. That was in Las Vegas in 87 degree air at 2300 feet altitude at 6psi on 91 octane. The difference between the right cam and what can work is often only 15-20RWHP. The big difference in the wrong and right cam is getting the drivability and exact idle you want without sacrificing anything.

My opinion is still that a setup like this you keep the cam reasonably small and make the big difference up in other parts. Big flowing heads, intake, and exhaust will make the power and raise the rpm range. The small cammed LS2, LS6, and LS7 all show that as an example.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

Patrick G is the man, I have had his help on several occasions when discussing cams, he is a great guy to work with.

As for the idle speed, to each his own. There is no right or wrong way, just what the tuner prefers. If it were me, I would have that car idling a little higher and it would be in the low 40's for manifold vacuum. I have my car idling solid at 47 kPa of vacuum, with a 230/232. The main thing I came across in a study I did on this was the better fuel economy around town with the higher idle and a better off idle feel. With this being said, I still have the guys that want the low/rough sounding idle, if that is what they want, I give it to them lol

I think Jimmy's comments were dealing with sample rate. Jim, on these new computer you can sample much more and not lose sampling rate, it is nice! lol

zippy

The off idle feel should be great if you have the timing where it needs to be and even more if you have some converter work with the cam. Timing is what really helps the idle out though. Stock idle timing with a bigger cam makes it lope and sound all mean like. Moving the timing way up cleans the idle up alot pick's up alot of vacuum. Idle timing adjustments and bigger cams are a must.

The sampling rate on the new computers is a huge improvement, I agree.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

Amazing how this thread sounds exactly like another long drawn out post on CF.

In the event it isn't, basic cams for the LS3 aren't just that much rocket science. 224/228 115 113 should pass emissions, be easy to tune, and decent top end. Personally, I think a reverse split would even work here.

8ByGoat

iTrader: (2)

LOL.

My cam specs are 232/236 600/600 113lsa in my 4k pound GTO that is a DD in Atlanta.

Driveability before I took at to Vengeance was mediocre at best. Now it idles at 950 and I can drive along in drive at 40mph and 1k rpms.

To the op if you are that concerned with the outcome I would either:

1. Make a road trip to a shop and make a week of it.

or

2. Spend another 1k and get the car transported there.

Brasil

Rag, a variation of that cam was great on the LS1 and LS2, but according to LG and other tuners, the LS3 commands different configurations, hence redesigned cams. The shop that I plan to use in S CAL is great, but they do not have much experience in cams with the LS3's.

Jimmyz

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for speaking for me Mike...LOL!

Yup, this is what I was trying to ask about Zippy...All good man.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

Trust me, I know this. Even with that, I still did not like the way the car responded at a lower RPM but mainly the poor economy. When doing a lot of city driving, the least amount of fuel used and more efficient you are at idle is the best.

You shared your experience on the topic to the OP and I shared my experience, not trying to argue with you, just clearing up my reasoning

Jimmyz

iTrader: (3)

Also, if you put too much timing in at idle the car will buck like hell at lower rpms in gear. At least that's my experience.

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

This was the same logic that was around in the early LS1 days too. You wouldn't believe how many posts were about what supposedly won't work in an LS1. Well guess what, some cams may do a little better than others, but small tweaks are just that, small tweaks. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to squeeze the last 5 HP out, but changing an ICL a degree or two, or changing overlap 2* isn't going to be a 20HP change.

If the good designs are so secret, its time for you to pony up and buy from a shop that posts a dyno graph you like. If their design is worth 10 HP and you spend an extra $50 for the cam, so what. Where else are you going to get 10 HP for $50?

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

My experience and answers to the questions I asked concerning the LS7/LS3/L92 head engines is that the (original GMPP) cam designs are what they are to address the differences in flow between the intake and exhaust sides with these heads. The LS3 heads are NO slouches for flow being direct decendants of the C5R heads! There is just an inherent imbalance between the intake and exhaust numbers. Short of just massaging the exhaust side, you aren't going to change the flow values much. And even doing that, you won't change the balance enough to be able to cam it like an LS1/LS2 and get away with it. GM spent millions designing cams to work with the engines they designed to begin with.
That said, it is stupid to try and reverse engineer LS1/LS2 cam designs to work with an LS3.. especially one that is bored and stroked to end up closer to an LS7 than anything else. The LS7 cam profiles are designed to take advantage of scavenging the cylinders by way for the extra exhaust duration and overlap. I'm not sure whats up with the 107 LSA with the stage3 cam. But I'm sure it works, or it wouldn't exist. The bean counters would have killed it.
It boils down to what you're willing to put up with in road manners to get every last drop of power vs. passing emissions (if you have to or care), and the skill of your tuner.
I think the "secret cam" thing is played out too. How much can a guy actually do with 360 degrees? Whats there is already there. In the HP aftermarket, the differences in cam performance (end result) most often boil down to tuning skill rather than the hyped "variation on a theme" design of the reengineered cam -per application.
-just my learned .02...

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

I agree there are head flow differences that need to come into play. Even though the LS3 exhaust seems to be weak, it actually works pretty well.

But just look at the stock LS3 cam. There is NO new technology here. The intake lobe is the 02 Z06 cam valve events and lift. The exhaust lobes are identical to the LS2 in events and lift. GM went for the 02 Z06 cam and decided it need less exhaust help.

The Hotcam is the same one being stuck in crate motors for years and it makes more power. Could you make more power with a zero overlap cam and slightly altered events, probably, but GM advertises a 50 HP gain with the cam, not to shabby.
I agree. A good tuner can squeeze another 5 - 10HP out of a cammed car compared with an ok tune. That can account for the success of certain cams vis-a-vis other similar grinds. My point to Brasil is that he has been handwringing for weeks over this and peace of mind is not worth saving $50.

108dragon

iTrader: (5)

I didn't say that the exhaust flow on these heads is weak. I said there was an inbalance between the intake and the exhaust. It would be fair to say that the intake flow is "too good"... if that is possible. We have to remember that GM's hands are tied in that they have to balance performance, emissions, and drivability issues and not just peak power production numbers.
I think that GM has gotten a bit lazy lately. Thier cams do work. But it seems that most of thier specialized stuff is in thier racing programs -which is to be expected. This is the reason I pointed out the Stage 3 cam. It seems to be the extreme in the spectrum of GM's trying to wring out every bit of power from the LS7/LS3/L92 head flatform. It exemplifies what is required in a cam profile to do so. And it tells us exactly what the heads' strong and weak points are in simply looking at the direction this cam went in its design. We can back off on the lift and duration numbers, and even LSA. The "lesson learned" here is that the extra exhaust duration and overlap is required to rectify the flow imbalance and to design more "streetable" cams along this line. To do anything else, you may as well just install an LS1 cam and tune it to taste... Which while it IS doable, is still another unnessessary compromise.
I just got a Stage 3 cam from "Burgers". And I'm checking it out in my LS3 now. Haven't installed and run the engine. But just hand turning the engine, the timing events are wicked. The way its set up, you wouldn't think the thing would even run. Advertised exhaust duration is in the neighborhood of 335. lol -The magic of electronically tuned internal combustion engines, huh?