440 or 454 Stroker, Which is better?
05-10-2010, 07:37 PM
#42
FormerVendor
05-10-2010, 07:56 PM
#43
If your staying N/A or nitrous i would say 440 because you will not see much of a difference from 14 cubic inches.
If you are going to be FI i would do a 454...
Example 440 LS7 vs 454 LSX. 14 cubic inches will not compensate for 110 extra pounds N/A.
You mean a 4.100 stroke.
If you are going to be FI i would do a 454...
Example 440 LS7 vs 454 LSX. 14 cubic inches will not compensate for 110 extra pounds N/A.
You mean a 4.100 stroke.
05-10-2010, 08:34 PM
#44
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If your staying N/A or nitrous i would say 440 because you will not see much of a difference from 14 cubic inches.
If you are going to be FI i would do a 454...
Example 440 LS7 vs 454 LSX. 14 cubic inches will not compensate for 110 extra pounds N/A.
You mean a 4.100 stroke.
If you are going to be FI i would do a 454...
Example 440 LS7 vs 454 LSX. 14 cubic inches will not compensate for 110 extra pounds N/A.
You mean a 4.100 stroke.
05-12-2010, 07:02 PM
#46
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i talked to je today and thay suggested a 4.0 crank over the 4.1 running a big shot of n20 .because the 4.0 has a compresson hight around 1.15 and the 4.10 will lose 50 thousands and possably brake a pistion.
05-22-2010, 01:50 AM
#48
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I would agree with Eric based on the numerous builds we have done.
We have had no problems with 4.200" bore LSx setups running tons of passes on a plate 200hp jets using standard GM MLS 6-bolt head gaskets. Doesnt take much to do a safe tune on 200hp pills. I've run alot of 5.3 stock shortblock pickup motors on 200hp pills safely, I dont see any concern on 200hp or less on a LSx block deal at any bore size.
We have had no problems with 4.200" bore LSx setups running tons of passes on a plate 200hp jets using standard GM MLS 6-bolt head gaskets. Doesnt take much to do a safe tune on 200hp pills. I've run alot of 5.3 stock shortblock pickup motors on 200hp pills safely, I dont see any concern on 200hp or less on a LSx block deal at any bore size.
05-22-2010, 05:35 AM
#50
You know, its ok for some forum members (not you Eric) to tell people, especially beginners like the OP, that the should go for REALLY BIG bores on their first expensive stroker motors and spray the hell out of it..........as long as its not their money being spent on the project.
I realize there's a "click" here on LS1tech.com and everyone has to agree with certain people no matter what..........but the OP is a beginner asking how big he should bore his expensive motor..............it seems that you AGREE that going with a a REALLY BIG bore like 4.185" with a big shot....is NOT advisable.
Kumar.......yeah, big giant 500ci engine.....makes cheesy power for a 500ci engine.....but he's some expert because he has a bank account.
stangs bane.....just likes to rag on anything and everyone with ideas about how to make more power.
sr71bbjr......you love to just tell everyone that everything is possible...build it and it will be wonderful. You're a jackass. The OP is a newbie looking for sound advice. You are giving him **** advice. Just build it to the max and you will be great.....as long as EVERYTHING is PERFECT. If everything was always perfect...we'd all be sucking lollypops and young Colombian girls and running 8 second 1/4 miles with no engine trouble at all. Because taking it to the max is OK all the time for everyone.
as I know there might very possibly be a few unscheduled rehones in it's future so I wouldn't want to already be near the edge of the block right off the bat.
Yeah...stupid me is with you on that about NOT going to the edge right off the bat....but I'm an idiot I guess to some people.
If you are extremely sure of yourself with tuning and your NOS knowledge though you could do it right away but you are potentially taking some life away from your engine if anything bad goes down.
I doubt the OP is Mr. Badass and has big bore engines and BIG shots down to a science..........I don't. I've learned that tuners really can care less about cars AFTER they tuine it....if it lasts they can say..."hey man, I tuned that 8 second car". If it blows...well, its the builders fault. Its hilarious.
And ERIC.....much props, you're like the badass of LSx engine building, we all know that. But jeez, all I said to the OP was "don't" do a 4.185" bore for your first expensive engine and spray it with a big shot of spray. MY GOD, the guy isn't looking to enter competition drag races with a a full on built 1/4 mile car. He's a friggin street/strip kind of guy that needs his engines to last a little while. Sounds like to me you actually dis-agree when posts are looked at in detail. Which is all I was saying.
So.....little me...who has learned whatever I know about LSx engines from this site.....recommends that nobody takes a new block to 4.185" bore and spray it with a big shot? And, Steve at RED also advised me NOT to take any block to more than 4.155" with a 200 shot of nitrous.
Later......
.
05-22-2010, 09:59 AM
#51
05-22-2010, 11:39 AM
#52
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I'll be spraying a 200 on my 4.200" bore motor and not really worried about it.
I also know several people spraying a 200 on a bone stock LS7 shortblock.
200 isnt a BIG shot these days.
I also know several people spraying a 200 on a bone stock LS7 shortblock.
200 isnt a BIG shot these days.
05-22-2010, 12:14 PM
#53
FormerVendor
4.185" bore ....IS a really large bore. Correct?????
You know, its ok for some forum members (not you Eric) to tell people, especially beginners like the OP, that the should go for REALLY BIG bores on their first expensive stroker motors and spray the hell out of it..........as long as its not their money being spent on the project.
I realize there's a "click" here on LS1tech.com and everyone has to agree with certain people no matter what..........but the OP is a beginner asking how big he should bore his expensive motor..............it seems that you AGREE that going with a a REALLY BIG bore like 4.185" with a big shot....is NOT advisable.
Kumar.......yeah, big giant 500ci engine.....makes cheesy power for a 500ci engine.....but he's some expert because he has a bank account.
stangs bane.....just likes to rag on anything and everyone with ideas about how to make more power.
sr71bbjr......you love to just tell everyone that everything is possible...build it and it will be wonderful. You're a jackass. The OP is a newbie looking for sound advice. You are giving him **** advice. Just build it to the max and you will be great.....as long as EVERYTHING is PERFECT. If everything was always perfect...we'd all be sucking lollypops and young Colombian girls and running 8 second 1/4 miles with no engine trouble at all. Because taking it to the max is OK all the time for everyone.
I haven't had nitrous....but I also have ~140,000 miles on my 427ci stroker motor. If I listened to a few morons back in 2002 to push my resleeved LS6 block to the edge, I probably would have had a rebuild long ago. Not a single one yet and still going strong.
Yeah...stupid me is with you on that about NOT going to the edge right off the bat....but I'm an idiot I guess to some people.
And again, not directed to you Eric....just using your educated post as a point:
I doubt the OP is Mr. Badass and has big bore engines and BIG shots down to a science..........I don't. I've learned that tuners really can care less about cars AFTER they tuine it....if it lasts they can say..."hey man, I tuned that 8 second car". If it blows...well, its the builders fault. Its hilarious.
And ERIC.....much props, you're like the badass of LSx engine building, we all know that. But jeez, all I said to the OP was "don't" do a 4.185" bore for your first expensive engine and spray it with a big shot of spray. MY GOD, the guy isn't looking to enter competition drag races with a a full on built 1/4 mile car. He's a friggin street/strip kind of guy that needs his engines to last a little while. Sounds like to me you actually dis-agree when posts are looked at in detail. Which is all I was saying.
So.....little me...who has learned whatever I know about LSx engines from this site.....recommends that nobody takes a new block to 4.185" bore and spray it with a big shot? And, Steve at RED also advised me NOT to take any block to more than 4.155" with a 200 shot of nitrous.
Later......
.
You know, its ok for some forum members (not you Eric) to tell people, especially beginners like the OP, that the should go for REALLY BIG bores on their first expensive stroker motors and spray the hell out of it..........as long as its not their money being spent on the project.
I realize there's a "click" here on LS1tech.com and everyone has to agree with certain people no matter what..........but the OP is a beginner asking how big he should bore his expensive motor..............it seems that you AGREE that going with a a REALLY BIG bore like 4.185" with a big shot....is NOT advisable.
Kumar.......yeah, big giant 500ci engine.....makes cheesy power for a 500ci engine.....but he's some expert because he has a bank account.
stangs bane.....just likes to rag on anything and everyone with ideas about how to make more power.
sr71bbjr......you love to just tell everyone that everything is possible...build it and it will be wonderful. You're a jackass. The OP is a newbie looking for sound advice. You are giving him **** advice. Just build it to the max and you will be great.....as long as EVERYTHING is PERFECT. If everything was always perfect...we'd all be sucking lollypops and young Colombian girls and running 8 second 1/4 miles with no engine trouble at all. Because taking it to the max is OK all the time for everyone.
I haven't had nitrous....but I also have ~140,000 miles on my 427ci stroker motor. If I listened to a few morons back in 2002 to push my resleeved LS6 block to the edge, I probably would have had a rebuild long ago. Not a single one yet and still going strong.
Yeah...stupid me is with you on that about NOT going to the edge right off the bat....but I'm an idiot I guess to some people.
And again, not directed to you Eric....just using your educated post as a point:
I doubt the OP is Mr. Badass and has big bore engines and BIG shots down to a science..........I don't. I've learned that tuners really can care less about cars AFTER they tuine it....if it lasts they can say..."hey man, I tuned that 8 second car". If it blows...well, its the builders fault. Its hilarious.
And ERIC.....much props, you're like the badass of LSx engine building, we all know that. But jeez, all I said to the OP was "don't" do a 4.185" bore for your first expensive engine and spray it with a big shot of spray. MY GOD, the guy isn't looking to enter competition drag races with a a full on built 1/4 mile car. He's a friggin street/strip kind of guy that needs his engines to last a little while. Sounds like to me you actually dis-agree when posts are looked at in detail. Which is all I was saying.
So.....little me...who has learned whatever I know about LSx engines from this site.....recommends that nobody takes a new block to 4.185" bore and spray it with a big shot? And, Steve at RED also advised me NOT to take any block to more than 4.155" with a 200 shot of nitrous.
Later......
.
I think the confusion is over head gasket sealing versus cylinder wall strength on some blocks versus having something left to hone again if you burn through some pistons.
I am not taking any sides here but my own and what I really see week after week and I am not really disagreeing with you or the other guys either as I would play it a lil more safe in general since we see the aftermath every few days when something bad does happen.
05-25-2010, 10:09 PM
#54
4.185" bore sleeved blocks I just want to clear up the deal on 4.185" bore. My opinion on going to 4.185" bore was on a dry sleeved block using Darton sleeve material. The sleeves themselves will take the power but the block is apt to crack behind the sleeves leading to a leaker. The same holds true for after market dry sleeved blocks as well. My recommendation would be to go with an MID block for bores above 4.155". The MID sleeves are more than strong enough at their max. bore of 4.200" to take a three or four hundred plus shot of nitrous. The MID sleeves do not rely on the block wall for support like a dry liner block does.
I was telling Erik today that I have put MID liners in several Ford aluminum 5.4 GT 40 blocks that are holding 2,200 hp. The same can be said of the smaller 3.5 liter Nissan aluminum VQ35 V6 which are making 2,200hp @ 65 lbs. of boost, both on methanol. Sleeve thickness for these two engines are very similar to the MID liner thickness on the LS series sleeves at their max. bore of 4.200"
Note that the above blocks have four head bolts per hole, same as the LS. The Nissans run larger studs and or L19 studs with Cometic Phusion head gaskets. Cometic makes Phusion head gaskets for the LS engine as well but there is a limit on bore size with these gaskets. There needs to be enough room between the bores for the gas filled sealing rings and some gasket material between the rings to support them. http://www.cometic.com/phuzion.aspx
Steve
I was telling Erik today that I have put MID liners in several Ford aluminum 5.4 GT 40 blocks that are holding 2,200 hp. The same can be said of the smaller 3.5 liter Nissan aluminum VQ35 V6 which are making 2,200hp @ 65 lbs. of boost, both on methanol. Sleeve thickness for these two engines are very similar to the MID liner thickness on the LS series sleeves at their max. bore of 4.200"
Note that the above blocks have four head bolts per hole, same as the LS. The Nissans run larger studs and or L19 studs with Cometic Phusion head gaskets. Cometic makes Phusion head gaskets for the LS engine as well but there is a limit on bore size with these gaskets. There needs to be enough room between the bores for the gas filled sealing rings and some gasket material between the rings to support them. http://www.cometic.com/phuzion.aspx
Steve
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
05-26-2010, 07:58 AM
#57
I just want to clear up the deal on 4.185" bore. My opinion on going to 4.185" bore was on a dry sleeved block using Darton sleeve material. The sleeves themselves will take the power but the block is apt to crack behind the sleeves leading to a leaker. The same holds true for after market dry sleeved blocks as well. My recommendation would be to go with an MID block for bores above 4.155". The MID sleeves are more than strong enough at their max. bore of 4.200" to take a three or four hundred plus shot of nitrous. The MID sleeves do not rely on the block wall for support like a dry liner block does.
I was telling Erik today that I have put MID liners in several Ford aluminum 5.4 GT 40 blocks that are holding 2,200 hp. The same can be said of the smaller 3.5 liter Nissan aluminum VQ35 V6 which are making 2,200hp @ 65 lbs. of boost, both on methanol. Sleeve thickness for these two engines are very similar to the MID liner thickness on the LS series sleeves at their max. bore of 4.200"
Note that the above blocks have four head bolts per hole, same as the LS. The Nissans run larger studs and or L19 studs with Cometic Phusion head gaskets. Cometic makes Phusion head gaskets for the LS engine as well but there is a limit on bore size with these gaskets. There needs to be enough room between the bores for the gas filled sealing rings and some gasket material between the rings to support them. http://www.cometic.com/phuzion.aspx
Steve
I was telling Erik today that I have put MID liners in several Ford aluminum 5.4 GT 40 blocks that are holding 2,200 hp. The same can be said of the smaller 3.5 liter Nissan aluminum VQ35 V6 which are making 2,200hp @ 65 lbs. of boost, both on methanol. Sleeve thickness for these two engines are very similar to the MID liner thickness on the LS series sleeves at their max. bore of 4.200"
Note that the above blocks have four head bolts per hole, same as the LS. The Nissans run larger studs and or L19 studs with Cometic Phusion head gaskets. Cometic makes Phusion head gaskets for the LS engine as well but there is a limit on bore size with these gaskets. There needs to be enough room between the bores for the gas filled sealing rings and some gasket material between the rings to support them. http://www.cometic.com/phuzion.aspx
Steve
Great post. I think you answered many questions. I do have a couple more though. What is the sleeve length like on the MID liners compared to the Dry sleeves and what is a rough $$$ difference?
Also, I have noticed that many people will not relseeve a ls1 block anymore due to the ls2 block being superior. Would the MID system alleviate this concern??
Thanks
Keith
05-31-2010, 06:48 AM
#58
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Another question....if a block was M.I.D. sleeved & you had a catastrophic failure, could you just install a single sleeve without a ton of machine work being done?
05-31-2010, 12:56 PM
#59
sleeve length, etc. Sleeve length has been standardized at 5.800" on both dry and MID wet liners. The length on the original MID sleeves was 5.675" which were increased to 5.800" to allow for longer strokes and still have enough over stone clearance to the main webs for honing. Erik at HK asked me to make the sleeves longer.
MID sleeve pricing was recently lowered for the LS engine blocks, all LS engine blocks. The wet liner install is roughly $750 more than the dry liner install. I stress relieve these blocks (both wet and dry) twice during the machining process. Stress relief keeps the bores round after the engine is up and running.
I put MID sleeves in LS1, LS2, LS3, and LS7 blocks. I like the LS1 blocks for MID because they have solid mains, no breather holes. The coolant jacket was raised on the Gen IV blocks so the MID sleeves are different. The Gen IV blocks have breather holes in the mains but because the coolant jacket is higher, these blocks have more than adequate strength for MID sleeves. I have installed MID sleeves in LS6 and 5.3 liter blocks but I will not install the 4.200" bore sleeves in these two castings because of the low water jackets and breather holes in these castings.
And yes, one of the advantages of the MID sleeves is the ability to replace a bad sleeve and put the block back into service. I have done this on more than one occasion. For example, I repaired an Acura V6 block which broke a con rod in the FX Motorsports Time Attack car which I sponsor. I welded up the holes in the block and put a couple of new liners in there. FX won every event they entered last year and set a new track record at every event in the process. This with a 3.2 liter V6 making 900 at the flywheel.
Steve
MID sleeve pricing was recently lowered for the LS engine blocks, all LS engine blocks. The wet liner install is roughly $750 more than the dry liner install. I stress relieve these blocks (both wet and dry) twice during the machining process. Stress relief keeps the bores round after the engine is up and running.
I put MID sleeves in LS1, LS2, LS3, and LS7 blocks. I like the LS1 blocks for MID because they have solid mains, no breather holes. The coolant jacket was raised on the Gen IV blocks so the MID sleeves are different. The Gen IV blocks have breather holes in the mains but because the coolant jacket is higher, these blocks have more than adequate strength for MID sleeves. I have installed MID sleeves in LS6 and 5.3 liter blocks but I will not install the 4.200" bore sleeves in these two castings because of the low water jackets and breather holes in these castings.
And yes, one of the advantages of the MID sleeves is the ability to replace a bad sleeve and put the block back into service. I have done this on more than one occasion. For example, I repaired an Acura V6 block which broke a con rod in the FX Motorsports Time Attack car which I sponsor. I welded up the holes in the block and put a couple of new liners in there. FX won every event they entered last year and set a new track record at every event in the process. This with a 3.2 liter V6 making 900 at the flywheel.
Steve
Steve,
Great post. I think you answered many questions. I do have a couple more though. What is the sleeve length like on the MID liners compared to the Dry sleeves and what is a rough $$$ difference?
Also, I have noticed that many people will not relseeve a ls1 block anymore due to the ls2 block being superior. Would the MID system alleviate this concern??
Thanks
Keith
Great post. I think you answered many questions. I do have a couple more though. What is the sleeve length like on the MID liners compared to the Dry sleeves and what is a rough $$$ difference?
Also, I have noticed that many people will not relseeve a ls1 block anymore due to the ls2 block being superior. Would the MID system alleviate this concern??
Thanks
Keith
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
05-31-2010, 02:17 PM
#60
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Nice Steve,
For everyone's info, Steve will be doing an MID LS1 for me in a few weeks, I plan on running big boost with these MID liners. I have full confidence in the sleeves, it's the missing hole for the stud that lsx blocks have that worries me.
Steve will also be machining the block for bigger studs and possibly machining the sleeves to help keep the heads on the block.
For everyone's info, Steve will be doing an MID LS1 for me in a few weeks, I plan on running big boost with these MID liners. I have full confidence in the sleeves, it's the missing hole for the stud that lsx blocks have that worries me.
Steve will also be machining the block for bigger studs and possibly machining the sleeves to help keep the heads on the block.
Sleeve length has been standardized at 5.800" on both dry and MID wet liners. The length on the original MID sleeves was 5.675" which were increased to 5.800" to allow for longer strokes and still have enough over stone clearance to the main webs for honing. Erik at HK asked me to make the sleeves longer.
MID sleeve pricing was recently lowered for the LS engine blocks, all LS engine blocks. The wet liner install is roughly $750 more than the dry liner install. I stress relieve these blocks (both wet and dry) twice during the machining process. Stress relief keeps the bores round after the engine is up and running.
I put MID sleeves in LS1, LS2, LS3, and LS7 blocks. I like the LS1 blocks for MID because they have solid mains, no breather holes. The coolant jacket was raised on the Gen IV blocks so the MID sleeves are different. The Gen IV blocks have breather holes in the mains but because the coolant jacket is higher, these blocks have more than adequate strength for MID sleeves. I have installed MID sleeves in LS6 and 5.3 liter blocks but I will not install the 4.200" bore sleeves in these two castings because of the low water jackets and breather holes in these castings.
And yes, one of the advantages of the MID sleeves is the ability to replace a bad sleeve and put the block back into service. I have done this on more than one occasion. For example, I repaired an Acura V6 block which broke a con rod in the FX Motorsports Time Attack car which I sponsor. I welded up the holes in the block and put a couple of new liners in there. FX won every event they entered last year and set a new track record at every event in the process. This with a 3.2 liter V6 making 900 at the flywheel.
Steve
MID sleeve pricing was recently lowered for the LS engine blocks, all LS engine blocks. The wet liner install is roughly $750 more than the dry liner install. I stress relieve these blocks (both wet and dry) twice during the machining process. Stress relief keeps the bores round after the engine is up and running.
I put MID sleeves in LS1, LS2, LS3, and LS7 blocks. I like the LS1 blocks for MID because they have solid mains, no breather holes. The coolant jacket was raised on the Gen IV blocks so the MID sleeves are different. The Gen IV blocks have breather holes in the mains but because the coolant jacket is higher, these blocks have more than adequate strength for MID sleeves. I have installed MID sleeves in LS6 and 5.3 liter blocks but I will not install the 4.200" bore sleeves in these two castings because of the low water jackets and breather holes in these castings.
And yes, one of the advantages of the MID sleeves is the ability to replace a bad sleeve and put the block back into service. I have done this on more than one occasion. For example, I repaired an Acura V6 block which broke a con rod in the FX Motorsports Time Attack car which I sponsor. I welded up the holes in the block and put a couple of new liners in there. FX won every event they entered last year and set a new track record at every event in the process. This with a 3.2 liter V6 making 900 at the flywheel.
Steve