Ideas on increasing power without losing ANY torque
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 578
Likes: 4
From: REALITY
He needs to call the engine builder and ask em how to get more power since they are so great at doing that......
An LS6 intake might make power over 6 grand on a cammed 346, but it doesn't mean it will work the same on a 408. I can tell you we've seen drastic differences in power just from bigger throttle bodies. The 78mm on this thing is probably responsible for the biggest loss in power up top.
As for increasing power without sacrificing torque, nothing you do as far as long tubes of intake manifold/throttle body should loose any torque. If anything you'll gain.
If the above is all true, why is he here asking people he does not know what he needs to do to his engine.
Like everyone had stated, it needs to get more air in, 370 engines are making more horsepower and this one is revving like its a stock 6.0L truck engine.
Overall just a bad combination of parts.
Go find Kevins (WKMCD screen name) old thread about L92's on a 408 with 521 RWHP and great driveability.
Like everyone had stated, it needs to get more air in, 370 engines are making more horsepower and this one is revving like its a stock 6.0L truck engine.
Overall just a bad combination of parts.
Go find Kevins (WKMCD screen name) old thread about L92's on a 408 with 521 RWHP and great driveability.
Only thing I was getting at is the cam choice isnt the biggest thing hurting his combination like bozzhawg would lead you to believe.
Intake, exhaust and heads in that order is what is hurting his engine the most IMO. It seems he already knows what to do but was coming on here to ask and confirm his thoughts.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 578
Likes: 4
From: REALITY
1 3/4 shorty headers are not the same as 1 3/4 long tubes. Totally different performance levels.
An LS6 intake might make power over 6 grand on a cammed 346, but it doesn't mean it will work the same on a 408. I can tell you we've seen drastic differences in power just from bigger throttle bodies. The 78mm on this thing is probably responsible for the biggest loss in power up top.
As for increasing power without sacrificing torque, nothing you do as far as long tubes of intake manifold/throttle body should loose any torque. If anything you'll gain.
An LS6 intake might make power over 6 grand on a cammed 346, but it doesn't mean it will work the same on a 408. I can tell you we've seen drastic differences in power just from bigger throttle bodies. The 78mm on this thing is probably responsible for the biggest loss in power up top.
As for increasing power without sacrificing torque, nothing you do as far as long tubes of intake manifold/throttle body should loose any torque. If anything you'll gain.
When I see a motor produce tons of peak torque and peak early as it did you think cam since the cam is the brain of the engine..... It will be a shame if the OP spends $1800-$2200 and the same **** happens or only a 25-40HP increase..... I do not make comments based on whats popular or whatever body else is doing.....
Like I stated before, what happens when peak torque occurs? This is the point where max cylinder pressure is reached..... Once peak torque has been reached, the individual or cam spec'r who can master a way to keep the torque curve dropping slowly will make more horsepower.... The faster the drop in torque curve, the less peak horsepower........
Chuuurrch
I understand that you are secure with your builder, but I am going to side on physics and you can interpret what you want bro......
The LS6 intake, and those heads and TB are not the quote on quote optimal for a 408ci motor for building top end power, but there would not be enough of a restriction to make your motor tap out at 5500rpms...... Those are tune related and timing events related........
1 3/4 headers are sufficient and the LS6 intake has worked on motors that have been turned up to 6000+ EASY......
Its rare to see a engine peak torque so early, and peak power so early...... without it being a camshaft timing issue involved... I think even if you bought all of the other stufff you will still be dissapointed.....
The LS6 intake, and those heads and TB are not the quote on quote optimal for a 408ci motor for building top end power, but there would not be enough of a restriction to make your motor tap out at 5500rpms...... Those are tune related and timing events related........
1 3/4 headers are sufficient and the LS6 intake has worked on motors that have been turned up to 6000+ EASY......
Its rare to see a engine peak torque so early, and peak power so early...... without it being a camshaft timing issue involved... I think even if you bought all of the other stufff you will still be dissapointed.....
Alright keyboard warrior, besides the fact that I have years of experience with these engines, youre questioning one of THE top lsx engine builders in the world. Anyone with any experience in engines can see exactly what is going on.
Are your valve reliefs cut for L92 valves? Youre going to have to mill a good chunk off to get the CR where youre currently at...
Are your valve reliefs cut for L92 valves? Youre going to have to mill a good chunk off to get the CR where youre currently at...
Monday I am going to pick up all of the paperwork for the engine, build specs, invoices, etc. Erik wasn't in when I picked up the engine. I need to drop off some straps and pick up those invoices, but wanted to get the car running before I went back. A few of the builders were interested in the combo, considering I was re-using everything from the 346 aside from the shortblock.
If the above is all true, why is he here asking people he does not know what he needs to do to his engine.
Like everyone had stated, it needs to get more air in, 370 engines are making more horsepower and this one is revving like its a stock 6.0L truck engine.
Overall just a bad combination of parts.
Go find Kevins (WKMCD screen name) old thread about L92's on a 408 with 521 RWHP and great driveability.
Like everyone had stated, it needs to get more air in, 370 engines are making more horsepower and this one is revving like its a stock 6.0L truck engine.
Overall just a bad combination of parts.
Go find Kevins (WKMCD screen name) old thread about L92's on a 408 with 521 RWHP and great driveability.
I know it is a bad combination of parts, but if insurance cut you a check and all you could afford was a new shortblock, what would you of done? The old shortblock was hydrolocked, what was I supposed to do? Let it sit for months until i could afford a new top end? Especially considering what I have set up now may choke, but is in no way running like crap. Damn thing screams like a raped ape. Torque out the wahzoo straight off idle. This is a perfect setup for a budget street car.
I am not looking to swap heads now, nor for a while. In a few months I want to add a FAST 90 or 102 for cathedral ports with new TB, possibly delete MAF and some cheap LTs and y-pipe. This should mostly increase power, BUT all I want to do is just barely remove the restriction so I can keep the torque. If I go too big, the low end will suffer some.
Edit: I did not put any thought into the current setup as all I could do was reuse the top end I already had. Only thought I put into it was gasket thickness to attain the 11.5:1. I want to post results of a combination that I picked out and setup. That will be putting everything I have learned to the test. This does not mean I will not consult with Tech or the builder or the tuner, but I want to be making the suggestions and getting confirmations or different suggestions, not answers. I want the pride of the high power engine and to know I spec'd it myself.
Only reason I picked up the HKE shortblock is because it was only $200 more for the assembled engine than if I were to order parts and get machine work done. I bought it through someone in Oregon so I didn't have to pay sales tax, didn't have to pay shipping, and I didn't have to wait 5-6 months for the usual HKE build time. Who wouldn't of picked up this shortblock?? Considering I only have my rental for 30 days...and we all now, **** happens.
1 3/4 shorty headers are not the same as 1 3/4 long tubes. Totally different performance levels.
An LS6 intake might make power over 6 grand on a cammed 346, but it doesn't mean it will work the same on a 408. I can tell you we've seen drastic differences in power just from bigger throttle bodies. The 78mm on this thing is probably responsible for the biggest loss in power up top.
As for increasing power without sacrificing torque, nothing you do as far as long tubes of intake manifold/throttle body should loose any torque. If anything you'll gain.
An LS6 intake might make power over 6 grand on a cammed 346, but it doesn't mean it will work the same on a 408. I can tell you we've seen drastic differences in power just from bigger throttle bodies. The 78mm on this thing is probably responsible for the biggest loss in power up top.
As for increasing power without sacrificing torque, nothing you do as far as long tubes of intake manifold/throttle body should loose any torque. If anything you'll gain.
Next step after that is to shoot for 600+ to the tire with a little bit more radical cam.
Because this is the first thread on tech ever that a guy has a professional engine builder build his engine and still asks questions on here
Only thing I was getting at is the cam choice isnt the biggest thing hurting his combination like bozzhawg would lead you to believe.
Intake, exhaust and heads in that order is what is hurting his engine the most IMO. It seems he already knows what to do but was coming on here to ask and confirm his thoughts.
Only thing I was getting at is the cam choice isnt the biggest thing hurting his combination like bozzhawg would lead you to believe.
Intake, exhaust and heads in that order is what is hurting his engine the most IMO. It seems he already knows what to do but was coming on here to ask and confirm his thoughts.
And the shorties/mids should help build more top end power, but they don't in this application, we can go back and forth all day about this or that.... And thats bull about the LS6 not being able to wind up, I have seen it on 364's,383's, hell even a 402..... etc......
When I see a motor produce tons of peak torque and peak early as it did you think cam since the cam is the brain of the engine..... It will be a shame if the OP spends $1800-$2200 and the same **** happens or only a 25-40HP increase..... I do not make comments based on whats popular or whatever body else is doing.....
Like I stated before, what happens when peak torque occurs? This is the point where max cylinder pressure is reached..... Once peak torque has been reached, the individual or cam spec'r who can master a way to keep the torque curve dropping slowly will make more horsepower.... The faster the drop in torque curve, the less peak horsepower........
Chuuurrch
When I see a motor produce tons of peak torque and peak early as it did you think cam since the cam is the brain of the engine..... It will be a shame if the OP spends $1800-$2200 and the same **** happens or only a 25-40HP increase..... I do not make comments based on whats popular or whatever body else is doing.....
Like I stated before, what happens when peak torque occurs? This is the point where max cylinder pressure is reached..... Once peak torque has been reached, the individual or cam spec'r who can master a way to keep the torque curve dropping slowly will make more horsepower.... The faster the drop in torque curve, the less peak horsepower........
Chuuurrch
I AM looking to spend around $1800 - $2200 for around 50 more horsepower and similar torque. FAST 90 or 102, new TB, new exhaust setup, that just about fits that price tag, in not more! Damned hobby is expensive! I ran up receipts, this car already has around 16-17K in it, and I am no where near done...
Look at the graph, I do not see a sharp decrease in torque. It stays pretty constant for around 1000 RPMs and then peters off a little bit more after that, but nothing crazy that just falls on it's face.
Ebay stainless steel 1 3/4" headers = $180
Find a used Fast78 = $300-$400
Completely port fast, match to heads and open up to 85mm = 15 hours my time
85mm Professional products tb = $180
MAF delete coupler (4" id x 6" long silicone) = $30 with stainless t bolt clamps
Thats what I did over my ls6 intake, gained 20+ ftlb's through the entire curve with unported 243's and a 224 cam. Map reading dropped 4-5 kpa with 85mm LS6, now with Fast 85 0-1 kpa map drop, 20 + rwhp gain.
Bolt ons vs LS6 head / cam vs Fast85 + underdrive pulley, more torque = more power = win
Find a used Fast78 = $300-$400
Completely port fast, match to heads and open up to 85mm = 15 hours my time
85mm Professional products tb = $180
MAF delete coupler (4" id x 6" long silicone) = $30 with stainless t bolt clamps
Thats what I did over my ls6 intake, gained 20+ ftlb's through the entire curve with unported 243's and a 224 cam. Map reading dropped 4-5 kpa with 85mm LS6, now with Fast 85 0-1 kpa map drop, 20 + rwhp gain.
Bolt ons vs LS6 head / cam vs Fast85 + underdrive pulley, more torque = more power = win
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FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
The top end will go up a bunch with a less restrictive intake. 95 KPA is already costing you probably 447 / .95 = 470 RWHP or about 25 hp. A FAST 90/02 will pick you up everwhere even down low I think especially with the bigger TB as well.
Obviously with bigger heads and intake and with bigger headers you will gain a lot on top. But if there is any way to get rid of teh inlet restriction on top right now you'll already pick up a bunch of power on top but there may be no way to do that.
Obviously with bigger heads and intake and with bigger headers you will gain a lot on top. But if there is any way to get rid of teh inlet restriction on top right now you'll already pick up a bunch of power on top but there may be no way to do that.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 578
Likes: 4
From: REALITY
Yes, because who ever wants to setup a combination on their own and see the results? I guess everyone just wants a builder to build everything for them...
Edit: I did not put any thought into the current setup as all I could do was reuse the top end I already had. Only thought I put into it was gasket thickness to attain the 11.5:1. I want to post results of a combination that I picked out and setup. That will be putting everything I have learned to the test. This does not mean I will not consult with Tech or the builder or the tuner, but I want to be making the suggestions and getting confirmations or different suggestions, not answers. I want the pride of the high power engine and to know I spec'd it myself.
Only reason I picked up the HKE shortblock is because it was only $200 more for the assembled engine than if I were to order parts and get machine work done. I bought it through someone in Oregon so I didn't have to pay sales tax, didn't have to pay shipping, and I didn't have to wait 5-6 months for the usual HKE build time. Who wouldn't of picked up this shortblock?? Considering I only have my rental for 30 days...and we all now, **** happens.
I hope so! That's the goal, absolutely no loss in low end, just barely remove the restriction to attain a little more power. I am no shooting for anything crazy with the next step. Same torque, and around 500 horses to the tire. Thats nothing questionable. The step after that I will be building a setup to attain 575+ to the tire and still retain moderate street-ability. That is when I do the heads, FAST 102, Kook's headers, flow merged y.
Next step after that is to shoot for 600+ to the tire with a little bit more radical cam.
Thank you, I plan to keep the cam for a while, as it appears to be a pretty good contributor to the power/torque for this displacement. I was talking to Patrick about getting him to spec me one. He said to keep it in there and when I am ready for the 575+ step, see if it can make that power. He likes it for this displacement, aside from the LSK lobes, and I can agree considering those lobes are going to kill this street car!
Long tubes build more top end power? Mids and shorties are to retain low end?
I AM looking to spend around $1800 - $2200 for around 50 more horsepower and similar torque. FAST 90 or 102, new TB, new exhaust setup, that just about fits that price tag, in not more! Damned hobby is expensive! I ran up receipts, this car already has around 16-17K in it, and I am no where near done...
Look at the graph, I do not see a sharp decrease in torque. It stays pretty constant for around 1000 RPMs and then peters off a little bit more after that, but nothing crazy that just falls on it's face.
Edit: I did not put any thought into the current setup as all I could do was reuse the top end I already had. Only thought I put into it was gasket thickness to attain the 11.5:1. I want to post results of a combination that I picked out and setup. That will be putting everything I have learned to the test. This does not mean I will not consult with Tech or the builder or the tuner, but I want to be making the suggestions and getting confirmations or different suggestions, not answers. I want the pride of the high power engine and to know I spec'd it myself.
Only reason I picked up the HKE shortblock is because it was only $200 more for the assembled engine than if I were to order parts and get machine work done. I bought it through someone in Oregon so I didn't have to pay sales tax, didn't have to pay shipping, and I didn't have to wait 5-6 months for the usual HKE build time. Who wouldn't of picked up this shortblock?? Considering I only have my rental for 30 days...and we all now, **** happens.
I hope so! That's the goal, absolutely no loss in low end, just barely remove the restriction to attain a little more power. I am no shooting for anything crazy with the next step. Same torque, and around 500 horses to the tire. Thats nothing questionable. The step after that I will be building a setup to attain 575+ to the tire and still retain moderate street-ability. That is when I do the heads, FAST 102, Kook's headers, flow merged y.
Next step after that is to shoot for 600+ to the tire with a little bit more radical cam.
Thank you, I plan to keep the cam for a while, as it appears to be a pretty good contributor to the power/torque for this displacement. I was talking to Patrick about getting him to spec me one. He said to keep it in there and when I am ready for the 575+ step, see if it can make that power. He likes it for this displacement, aside from the LSK lobes, and I can agree considering those lobes are going to kill this street car!
Long tubes build more top end power? Mids and shorties are to retain low end?
I AM looking to spend around $1800 - $2200 for around 50 more horsepower and similar torque. FAST 90 or 102, new TB, new exhaust setup, that just about fits that price tag, in not more! Damned hobby is expensive! I ran up receipts, this car already has around 16-17K in it, and I am no where near done...
Look at the graph, I do not see a sharp decrease in torque. It stays pretty constant for around 1000 RPMs and then peters off a little bit more after that, but nothing crazy that just falls on it's face.
You missed my point bro....
There's an old saying
"if you knew better, you'll do better, and you don't do better, evidently you didn't know better"
Good luck, since you already know what you need to do, if you knew better you would have done better from the begining....... and we wouldn't even be posting here.....
Last edited by bozzhawg; Aug 1, 2010 at 02:48 PM.
You missed my point bro....
There's an old saying
"if you knew better, you'll do better, and you don't do better, evidently you didn't know better"
Good luck, since you already know what you need to do, if you knew better you would have done better from the begining....... and we wouldn't even be posting here.....
There's an old saying
"if you knew better, you'll do better, and you don't do better, evidently you didn't know better"
Good luck, since you already know what you need to do, if you knew better you would have done better from the begining....... and we wouldn't even be posting here.....
Bozzhawg, what do you think about this? Since you think I may have a problem with the power dropping off to early, this could be a reason, although I have the stock balancer, the rubber and parts are 8+ y/o with 75K miles and I am sure years of abuse.
Post 36, I would of linked to view the single post, but it takes everything out of context.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-again-2.html
Post 36, I would of linked to view the single post, but it takes everything out of context.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-again-2.html
