So who was the company that did the CNC port work? I don't think I missed it in the thread anywhere.

 

PMd ya the info, better not post it on here, they are a sponser and we all know how the Mods feel about saying anything bad about the $pon$ers.

 

Its obvious who did the work after reading this thread and all I can tell you is the pictures they show for the "100% CNC heads" does not look like what you got, and to me that proves they owe you a better port job weather it flows better or not. They should at least match the pictures and the pictures show no casting marks just fresh endmill ridges throughout the heads. Plus they say "100%" CNC'd, right.

 

Correct 100% CNCd In/Ex and CC. we got into a pissing match, and they found out I posted the photos on LS1 tech (witout mentioning there name) and now, will not return a call, or text or email.

 

I agree, the photos on their web site show completely CNCd runners on the heads...

 

How do all of you not understand what "100% CNC'd" means?

It means that a CNC machine does 100% of the work, not that a machine will touch 100% of every surface. If your reasoning were correct, the machine would remove material that does not need to be removed just to satisfy your understanding. Port work is about getting air speed and volume up, not removing metal needlessly.

If a head casting varies due to shift or changes year to year, it may have less metal in some places and more in others. The result is that the machine will port the same shaped port in the head but more or less clean up (pretty ridges) will be present in those areas. The absence of cleanup does not somehow mean that a port will flow less or that the machine did not pass through that area.

I am shocked that you all can't seem to grasp the obvious and somehow relate looks to performance.

If this head had been hogged out to 285cc (which is huge and way too big for many engines) it would have cleaned up everywhere. Instead, you see a small efficient port.

 

Yes, that is a complete CNC head. Only a CNC machine did the porting. That machine removed all the metal necessary to create the port shape you paid for.

I don't even remember if I got a flow sheet with mine. But lets be honest, does the flow sheet change the power it makes? If I did get the flow sheet today, would I go faster or make any more power than it did when dynoed without it? No, a flow sheet doesn't change one thing. The reason, flow sheets sell heads, they don't add to performance. Bragging about or comparing those numbers is irrelevant because every bench is different and the parameters of use are all different.

You really care about getting an invoice that is marked paid? I have never seen a person that wanted a completed invoice because it carried such importance. Almost odd.

You seem like a customer that can't be made happy because of your own inherent beliefs about the process. You put crazy bars/hurdles in your own way. If you were my customer or a possible future customer (TEA/WCCH), I would likely avoid your business. There are customers that simply aren't worth the hastle. Like the customer who gets an oil change and then complains about the AC not working after the work.

 

A flow sheet does sell heads but it also allows a person that is spec'ing the cam one more piece of information to go by when a cam is being spec'd for their application. As far as an invoice, I would want one also because he was asked to pay by certified check, no credit card or debit card. I would want something to show if I had a dispute with them.

As far as these heads OP, I would just put them on and see the power you make with your engine size and see if yours is relative to engines of the same size and cam selection.

I see what you are saying Tireburnin but do you think his castings are that bad off for the cnc not to touch them in certain spots? Do you think the maybe the company who ported the heads have a totally different cnc program than some of the other head companies out there?

My heads from PRC's look just like what litle88 posted the pics of his heads from LPE. So I ask is it the CNC machine or is the casting at fault here or is it just the CNC program is different from what I and litle88 posted here?

 

I agree, when all the other major vendors heads(TEA,LPE,PRC,WCCH) come with fully CNCd ports and you pay big $$$s for CNC work from a company who has pictures posted on their web site of fully CNCd ports and thats not what you get add to that you requested a flow sheet/invoice and were told yes, I would be pissed to...

 

Tak'em to court and sue the **** out of them. You've got all the evidence you need from their website and the finished product. Being that I am a owner of a performace shop (silent). I would never stop answering the phone unless, I had something to hide. ONE MAD customer will bury you. You atleast have them for False Respresentation of their product and/or service.

I would make this right or get on here and explain why my port job looks this way and not that way.....

 

Gentlemen, I wanted to take the time to address some of the questions, misconceptions, and outright lies posted in this thread. If you are actually interested, it should prove educational, or entertaining if nothing else. At the end I'll provide a synopsis with dates, as well as a representative sampling of the correspondence from Ed which should help paint a vivid picture of what has actually transpired. While I'm sure it is obvious to some, the rest will likely find that the added context upends the discussion entirely. If you would prefer to only read what actually transpired during our business dealings, then please scroll past the questions to On Ed, Eddy B, Nasti98Z, etc.:

I'll address the posts first, because regardless of the legitimacy of the thread, the questions are most certainly legitimate. If my answer or observation regarding your post is curt, I hope you won't take it personally.


It is interesting that you say "this shop does not give out flow numbers" and "this shop provides flow #'s" in the same sentence. We are fortunate that both your irrational behavior, and obvious fundamental lack of understanding carries over into this thread. It will make it much easier to illustrate the reality of the situation.



This is how it works with everyone who CNC ports heads. For the people who cannot come to terms with the fact that flow #'s, insofar as the end user is concerned, are for marketing, we are all required to post up some form of representative data.



Lie - Ed was told the truth - flow #'s are neither comparable, nor do they dictate or accurately describe potential performance. Anyone who has read the forums knows I have been the model of consistency regarding our take on arbitrary (to the customer) data like flow #'s. Ed was specifically told that NO heads are raced on the flowbench, because it is entirely fruitless.


Lie - Your heads arrived 12/6-12/8, were cut immediately (12/8-12/10), and then sat because you failed to send in payment. It was at this point that we began to become concerned about Ed. Per our phone conversation Ed wanted heads ASAP and would send payment immediately. However, this all changed once we received his castings. At that point Ed began the cam theory interrogation, and ultimately could not accept that I would not tell him what he wanted to hear in that regard. He clearly wanted to be told that reading forums had provided him a formidable understanding regarding valve train and cam selection. Most people realize that you can peruse the WebMD forums all you like, but you aren't going to cultivate anything remotely comparable to the skillset of a medical professional. The same carries over to forums for automotive enthusiasts, and the majority recognize that. After much wasted time, Ed stated that he didn't have the $ to purchase a cam and finish the engine. At this point we assumed that two week long cam/flow interrogation was a stalling tactic due to him being embarassed that he didn't have the $ to send in with his heads. Finally, on Dec 17th Ed mails a check, and we send the P.O. to Manley for the components (in stock) utilized in his build. Manley confirmms P.o. received on 12/16, so we expect parts approximately when payment arrives on Dec 21/22. While we work over the holiday week, many do not, and for whatever reason parts we were told shipped did not. Post holiday, we had the components shipment expedited because Ed's demeanor continued to deteriorate despite the fact that in reality he received a turnaround time of less than one business week.




Lie - Ed was sent a Paid invoice, as is S.O.P. Ed also has the initial quotes and invoice(s). Ed said nothing about his used up components, I actually brought them up and noted that due to his attitude, I was not inclined to go out of pocket again for someone like him. Yes, I said again.. the story gets better.



No disrespect intended, but that is incorrect in many instances. If your contention is that the areas that do not 'clean up' stray from the design, then it is illogical to conclude that grinding the port even farther from the intended design will bring it back around. If your contention is that going from as cast to polished with 40-1200grit matters beyond aesthetics then it is also incorrect. Part of what sets our work apart is that we have taken the time to ensure probable areas of non cleanup blend in ideally with areas that are touched by the CNC porting. I understand that is not the case with many other shops.



Lie - Again, not only did Ed receive all of this, in fact he received much more than he actually paid for. I will expound in my synopsis.



You are correct, it is not possible to have 100% cleanup in this family of heads, regardless of porter until you are 20-30cc larger than stock, or 28X-29Xcc. This leaves porting shops with a compromise to make - performance vs. aesthetics. Naturally, most of us have larger versions that exhibit significantly improved cleanup. The caveat is that in applications where the port is already too large, you'd be asking us to prioritize arbitrary characteristics over performance. The rest of your post is based on lies presented by the O.P., so you'll have to forgive me if I don't address them again.




No offense, but that exemplifies the fundamental lack of understanding in regard to what "CNC" actually means on the forums. 100% CNC means that there is no hand work done beyond deburring and possibly light blending in the event machine work from the casting manufacturer is off - guide centerlines for instance. We have no control over the varying port core locations that are aparrent in All cast heads. The work on Ed's heads is 100% CNC machined, is the entire program he requested, and does ensure cleanup in the areas that actually matter in regard to performance.




Lie - There was no "pissing match." You unwisely threatened to attempt to denigrate our reputation because I refused to capitulate to your demand that we pay you 13X-14X% of your invoiced amount. When it became obvious that not only were you A. willing to lie, B. a person who thinks they can weasle out of having to pay by making threats, and C. entirely irrational and unreasonable, I told you that I would address you publically.

Continued...

 

On Cleanup, the non-issue at hand:

The simple fact is that any time any shop is CNC porting a head that is large enough to run as cast, we have to contend with areas that will be left untouched because they are outside the bounds of the shape we are cutting into the casting. There is a core shift tolerance specified by GM, and it leaves us an area of uncertainty of approximately .080" in several directions. Smaller ports will typically exhibit 90%+ clean up being cut between 15-20cc oversize. On larger ports like the LS3/l92 family it will require a port design 20-30cc larger than stock. Unfortunately with this family of heads there are already portions that are larger than we want them to be before port work. Cutting them larger serves only to dilute the performance improvement you are actually buying when you come to us. Keep in mind, if you want a larger port for improved cleanup, even in instances where we suggest the smaller runner, then all you have to do is specify your desires and we will accommodate them. It is also important to note that Ed's castings are the oddball L92/LS3 family head - casting 5364. As the two prevalent castings are 821 and 823's, we are able to note and compensate somewhat for core shift trends as we cut more and more of them. All of this has been more thoroughly articulated to Ed over a significant accumulation of correspondence, as well as via this link to an old page I'd begun to put together years ago on the topic: http://www.advancedinduction.com/AiCleanup.html


On Flow #'s:

As has been previously stated, the entire point of CNC porting is to consistently reproduce a passage that our R&D efforts have gone into developing. The fact of the matter is that steady state flow testing is simply not representative of how the head operates in real life. Furthermore, comparing data reported on any given test apparatus must necessarily include a tolerance so large that it completely negates the usefulness of attempting to compare #'s between varying setups. We have been entirely up front and truthful in this regard, to the point of upsetting some people who still insist the public rely on arbitrary and incomparable data vs. the characteristics that actually make a difference. As previously stated, the overwhelming probability is that you will not duplicate most claimed flow #'s within a small tolerance (+/- 2cfm) due to variances in flow bench fixturing, head location, inlet type, inlet location, inlet radii, transducers present, environmental conditions, methodology, and so forth. Please understand that if racing arbitrary data like flow #'s is your priority, then we are not offended if you go to any of the multitude of head providers who cater to that desire. Our heads are designed to work on engines, not flow benches.



On Ed, Eddy B, Nasti98Z, etc.:

I realize that this is getting long, but now for the truly enlightening part. As any vendor, customer service rep, etc. with any experience knows, 95% of customers are completely normal and business proceeds normally. Of the remaining percentage perhaps there are miscommunications, issues, etc. that sour the feeling of the process itself. However, in a select few instances we become entangled with individuals who are truly special cases in the sense that they are a 1 of 500 or 1 of 1000 customer.


11/29-12/6
Initially, Ed was referred to us in this thread: https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...c-porting.html

You'll notice that he denigrates TEA for allegedly not calling him back here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/14179490-post12.html
Initially I interpreted this as a probable high maintenance customer - no big deal. In chatting on 11/30 I noticed that Ed seemed preoccupied with misc. bench racing topics commonly discussed in public forums. In hindsight I should have realized that when he asked the same questions repeatedly, he was actually unable to comprehend and/or accept anything contrary to his preconceived notions.

Ed was sent a .pdf quote for $1495 which included our $995 full CNC work and labor, a $500 Manley Nextek spring kit, and ~$330 in Manley valves. In a hurry making quotes that evening I added the Manley Valve line in the description, but mistakenly did not add the actual cost of the valves to the quote. While many would not honor an incorrect quote that cut half their margin out, we did, and Ed was lucky enough to fall into a 33% discount right off the top.


12/6-12/21
Ed's heads arrived and were cleaned, prepped, and CNC'd between 12/6 and 12/8. At this point we were well into the continued discussion wherein he simply could not bring himself to trust that we can provide an ideal cam grind for his application. Ed could not handle the fact that he does not have an accurate or useful understanding of engines in general, and I am not inclined to take hours to describe theory and how it is practically applied. Most of our customers are more experienced, do their research, come to us ready to trust in the overwhelming probability that we will deliver for them as we have others. Typically, throughout our conversation(s) the trust and comfort will build as questions and concerns are logically addressed. Contrary to the norm, Ed's demeanor began to slide the other way.

12/22-1/5
Finally, the gentleman who claims to be an "independently wealthy" business owner, and also to not have $395 for a camshaft sends in payment. His heads have long since been cut, and we are now three weeks past 12/1 when Ed was sent a quote/pricing for the heads. It is important that I note at this point that Ed sent in castings that he had previously burnt up on n2o. Ed never mentioned that he had managed to melt a large portion of the spark plug boss out of a chamber. Repair entails welding the area up, re-shaping that portion of the chamber, machining the spark plug bore, and re-machining the spark plug threads. In Ed's case it was a bit over 1.5hr of labor, but we'll call it $100 for simplicity's sake. We did not bill Ed for the repair, because at this point his attitude had changed so drastically that we simply did not care to deal with him further.

For those not paying attention, Ed actually received what should have been $1925 for $1495. Put another way, minus parts, Ed paid ~$570 for $995 in labor, a roughly 43% discount.

It was during this time period that I noticed Ed began to blatantly lie about correspondence. Though he did leave many text messages, he'd claim to have left messages he did not. He'd also leave a text message, and then immediately send an email railing on how he felt slighted because he "never got a response." In one case that stands out we received the "How could you not respond to me!" email ELEVEN MINUTES after he sent the text message. It doesn't take a genius to look at the level of discourse out of Ed and realize that he immediately went to work on his angry email after sending the text. Behavior consistent with the attitude of a man who will not allow himself to be made happy.


1/10-present

Ed's paranoia is coming to full song at this point, and I cannot claim I didn't expect it by now. We begin to receive more text messages. Most seem to attempt to convey the rabid assumption that he has somehow been slighted. Naturally, we explain and address all of his concerns. Everything that I have said here in regard to his heads is explained to Ed, often more than once. As his primary concern is cosmetics, our immediate response also included an offer to ship his heads back, and run the larger program with significantly improved cleanup. On a job where our margin was cut down to under $300, we offered to put another $500-700 in labor and time into it to ensure the customer is happy even though the problem is not with our work. Why did Ed not, yet again, thank the Gods for his unbelievable luck in dealing with us? If you aren't worn out yet, keep reading.



Since around 12/17 Ed's demeanor has exponentially degraded into a vile, immature, and utterly irrational mess of deluded accusations. Initially, I thought we were dealing with one of those guys who believes he can weasel and threaten his way into free heads. Ed exhibited this behavior when he attempted to force us to pay him $2XXX for his heads under threat of internet aspersion. As the "customer is always right" fallacy has pervaded the buying public, and the internet gives anyone a voice, many businesses will actually capitulate to unwarranted demands.

Continued...

 

Most vendors are hesitant to publically crack the skulls of those who are customers even when they are obviously in the wrong and deserve it. In this case that is compounded by the fact that it has become clear that this gentleman (Ed B., Nasti98z, etc.) is unstable to say the least. However, in the end we have no obligation to allow him to continue to lie to the community about our company or product. I am neither a psychologist, nor am I an armchair Freud, but I have inquired with friends who study psychology to help us classify customer types to better meet their needs. Based on that, and our decade of experience with the public, my unqualified opinion is that Ed is one of these people who has paranoid delusions that make him feel and behave as if everyone were out to get him. This manifests itself in his refusal to even acknowledge the logical, probable, and common sense explanations pertaining to cleanup, flow #'s, and performance. Rather than acknowledge what I had said, he would simply ignore it all, and repeatedly reassert that he was "getting more and more pissed off by the minute." When he was told how little he'd paid, his paranoia turned that into "OH! So you developed a shitty port program just for me!" When he was told that his burnt up chamber was being repaired and he wasnt being billed? Anger. When we offered to invest another $500-700 in shipping and cutting the larger port for improved cleanup, what was the response? Yet again, Ed's personality twists the reality that he's as lucky as they come into the paranoid delusion that our offer is simply another attempt to trick, or get one over on him.


In the end, when it became obvious that something is very wrong with this gentleman, we decided to stop corresponding with him. The emails and texts had deteriorated into the equivalent of an angry gorilla kicking up dust in a desperate attempt to continue the drama and thus enable him to continue to indulge in the fantasy he's described online. Naturally, anyone who has dealt with obsessed, paranoid, and deluded individuals knows that ignoring them does nothing to quell their foaming attempts to get you to re-engage them. If anything, it intensifies it.

In all I have ~40 emails, 20 texts, and one alter ego from Ed.


How about a representative sampling from the body of correspondence we've amassed? Realize that this is in response to explanation and our offer to run the larger program, but it doesn't even register with Ed...



Now, beyond the simply ignoring everything we said or offered, you'll notice that he continues to assert that not only is he a victim, but he thinks we're going to be heading to Iowa to deal with him. To further add context, realize that throughout this entire sob story detailing how he will be forced to sell the heads... they are bolted to his engine. He documents this himself with his photobucket account.
http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...cpZZ1QQtppZZ24

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ndmotor006.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../motorhome.jpg


It gets better, as Ed is utterly consumed by the fantasy that he has been wronged, he creates an alter ego to attempt to restart our "discussion." Read from bottom to top.

"The seller seemed as a honest person," so why wouldn't you wait to ask questions about a part until after you'd paid and it was inbound? It is interesting that the heads are simultaneously 1. sitting waiting for resolution, 2. on their way to another shop and/or apart for work, 3. On their way to "Brian Fizher" and 4. On the engine being installed in his car today: http://www.iowaautoforums.com/viewto...p?f=40&t=15324

Continued...

 

Here are a few gems received via text:




In conclusion, buyers and casual readers beware, there are nefarious reasons some people revert to PM's. On LS1tech, it isn't because it is contrary to a vendor's best interests as this board's moderation is very light in that regard. It is often because their assertions will not hold up under scrutiny. Public forums are unfortunately hit or miss in regard to useful and truthful data. Some people are simply broken, and unfortunately for the rest of us they also shop and post online. Ed has provided an ideal example illustrating why you simply cannot trust much of what is said on forums from unqualified voices. The safest assumption is that information, education, advice, etc. gleaned from public forums is ultimately worth no more than what you paid for it. What can you do as a buyer doing research? You might consider the probability that the vendors are here to serve our best interest, as well as yours if those interests are aligned because you elect to give us your business. While no business is infallible, all of us want nothing more than for customers to be satisfied in the end. How can you be sure? Because when you are happy, we receive more orders, and thus more cashflow/income.

If after all of this you are inclined to believe that Ed has somehow been wronged, or that his behavior is somehow acceptable, then I can only ask that you seek another head/headwork provider. I mean no offense, nor am I unappreciative of the community as a whole. However, we are not inclined to feed what, in our experience is little more than unqualified data misapplied for the sake of marketing. There are many shops who feel differently, and will be happy to accommodate you if your primary concern is flow #'s. Best wishes regardless of what you are inclined to believe.

Hope that helps complete the puzzle for you guys. I did not intend to spend the last couple hours putting that together, you'll have to forgive me if I don't have time to come back to this madness.

-Phil

 

LOL

This as a whole story is even funnier than it seemed from just this thread.

 

BRAVO! Can't ask for anything better than that........Anyone who puts that much effort into a post isn't trying to pull the wool.



I had a customer like this once....I drove 4 hours one-way to be sitting on his porch when he got home from work. Wasn't so tuff and quick with the mouth on that occasion.

 

Funny thing is if you re-read this thread, most people are telling the OP to not get hung up on looks and run the heads. Those who have purchased larger port CNC heads have pointed out that thier heads look like what the OP wants. It should be expected that a head that has 7cc's removed per port looks very different than a head that has 20-30cc's removed per port.

To AI... that's some great vocabulary in your posts....lol. I would imagine that a flow bench is similar to dyno's. They aren't usefull to be compared to other flow benches but could be used beneficially in a before and after scenario to illustrate gains. I'm sure you can explain gains in velocity with increases in flow through smaller ports better then I could.... even though there is more to it then that. Looks like a good head for a stock cubed LS3. I can see your reasoning for not wanting to have to explain cases like this with credit card companies but you are also losing out on a lot of business by not accepting them. Especially if cases are far and few between.

 

Ai, well to start with the photos you have attached are of my motor, not the motor the heads were itended for, better get a close up shot of them. also you may know what your doing on the heads, but my question is this based off the flow# profile you have on your site for LS3/L92 heads, why is there such a differance in #s, they were flowed on 2 different flow benchs. Your correct flow benches are like dynos, they differ. but usually small amounts.

 

I noticed on Ai's site they offer 267cc, 270cc, or 280cc port jobs for LS3 heads..Which did you order??

 

Phil...Nice post, Its makes me feel good inside to know you spent the better part of 2 hrs putting it togather...lol, In my opinion your still a Thief, whats fuunier yet is the photos, not my motor, nor my car, but yes I know the owner, for those of you others, after spending close to $1575.00 with this guy, I still feel I did not get what was promised (Chriswxt) you ask what port job? Good question, was never offer a verity, Flow #s may not be a whole lot, but it does tell a guy what to expect in performance, also the #s were need for the custom cam, as it was asked on the order sheet, anyway I have flowed the heads on 2 different flow benches, (they may not be exactly thenm same, but C'mon within the ballpark would have been nice) I have sent the heads off yesterday to a REAL shop, they also have advised me they will flow them prior to fixing them, 10-14 days they will be back, I will at that time post all the info. Was I being a ******** to this guy YOU! bet, I can honsetly say there is not 1 person on this post who would not be upset, "send them back" he says, ya great, you going correct this time, or just adjust your program to touch up the missed areas to make me happy! People times are tuff out there for everyone, Get what you paid for!!! Its simple, and "Tireburnin" your the reason I sent him thess heads, I wish you never posted on my original topic, and the reason you did not post up any info on your heads is you dont have it either, Oh and Phil... you got your readers that have sympathy for you, but I got the PMs from alot of guys asking who "Fucked up them heads, I am getting ready to start looking for shops and want to avoid them" and as for me worring about you comming to Iowa, get real, I would actually look forward to it, thats not what was being said....figure it out, I dont have any recourse with the Credit Card Co., but it was a Certifeid Bank draft, and I have spoken with them, there is recourse, we will see how it all pans out. Have a great day Phil, I truely feel sorry for the guy/guys heads you will be working on today and in the future.