What do you want to see from Katech in 2011?
01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
#81
This thread has really went down hill.
I don't know how you can compare Katech to other shops. They spend millions in equipment and r&d to bring you the best possible products.
Let's compare 2 shops at camshaft design.
Shop 1-they begin with taking what they think will be a good cam design. They do engine simulation to get a basic design(oh yeah, some of this simulation software is $30,000 per year to lease) After engine simulation they go to valve train simulation or spintron work. After which they put one in a engine, usually after 2-3 cams in the engine dyno you are happy. Lots of money invested into 1 cam.
Shop 2- they pick a couple lobes out of a catalog, put it a car run it on the chassis dyno-done.
Shop 1- sells their cams for $500.00
Shop 2 -sells their cams for $385.00
is the shop 2 cam near as good for longevity of the valvetrain and optimal power-very, very doubtful unless they got lucky.
so how many cams does shop 1 have to sell to make of for the tens of thousands of dollars they spend to bring you that cam?
you can't put a price tag on that kind of research. Most don't have the ability to even do that kind of r&d and many of those who do, doesn't sell it. So you really should be appreciative that Katech will even let you buy parts from them that have that kind of r&d put into them. You have to remember, everything they learn goes into those products,whether it's from the track or dyno-like i said,how do you put a price tag on that experience?
I don't know how you can compare Katech to other shops. They spend millions in equipment and r&d to bring you the best possible products.
Let's compare 2 shops at camshaft design.
Shop 1-they begin with taking what they think will be a good cam design. They do engine simulation to get a basic design(oh yeah, some of this simulation software is $30,000 per year to lease) After engine simulation they go to valve train simulation or spintron work. After which they put one in a engine, usually after 2-3 cams in the engine dyno you are happy. Lots of money invested into 1 cam.
Shop 2- they pick a couple lobes out of a catalog, put it a car run it on the chassis dyno-done.
Shop 1- sells their cams for $500.00
Shop 2 -sells their cams for $385.00
is the shop 2 cam near as good for longevity of the valvetrain and optimal power-very, very doubtful unless they got lucky.
so how many cams does shop 1 have to sell to make of for the tens of thousands of dollars they spend to bring you that cam?
you can't put a price tag on that kind of research. Most don't have the ability to even do that kind of r&d and many of those who do, doesn't sell it. So you really should be appreciative that Katech will even let you buy parts from them that have that kind of r&d put into them. You have to remember, everything they learn goes into those products,whether it's from the track or dyno-like i said,how do you put a price tag on that experience?
Shop 1 does all this research and cam design and has to turn a profit after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing this cam. In turn they price their cam for $500.00 to make the profit margin they need to see.
Shop 2 makes and educated guess on some lobes on the given information from a motor and bypasses all this research and development so their profit margin is lower and they price their cam for $389.00
Now here is where the consumer comes in.
Both cams make very good power, so good in fact that they are in within 5-10 hp of each other on a motor with the same cubes. The word gets out with a great internet site such as your truly "ls1tech" about the 2 cams. Now I ask you which cam is the consumer going to buy. You guessed it, shop 2's cam.
So now shop 1 has spent all this money on r&d and probably most likely will just break even or turn a little profit and shop 2 is making a chunk load of money.
Look around this site and see how many people are running TSP 228's ot Tr224's or Trex cams. Then look and see who is running Katech cams, not many.
Don't get me wrong If I had a race team or I am building a max effort race car to extract every bit of power I would be calling you or Katech to design something for me that works only with my combo to get that last ounce of horsepower.
As far as this thread, there are not many more innovative ideas that can be made as far as the LS f body platform and motor. If there is it will be a very expensive venture that will not turn a profit so We are going to have to keep moving on in the progression of the LS platform one small step at a time.
01-26-2011, 01:17 PM
#82
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I understand what you are saying Shawn but let put this into another scenario.
Shop 1 does all this research and cam design and has to turn a profit after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing this cam. In turn they price their cam for $500.00 to make the profit margin they need to see.
Shop 2 makes and educated guess on some lobes on the given information from a motor and bypasses all this research and development so their profit margin is lower and they price their cam for $389.00
Now here is where the consumer comes in.
Both cams make very good power, so good in fact that they are in within 5-10 hp of each other on a motor with the same cubes. The word gets out with a great internet site such as your truly "ls1tech" about the 2 cams. Now I ask you which cam is the consumer going to buy. You guessed it, shop 2's cam.
So now shop 1 has spent all this money on r&d and probably most likely will just break even or turn a little profit and shop 2 is making a chunk load of money.
Look around this site and see how many people are running TSP 228's ot Tr224's or Trex cams. Then look and see who is running Katech cams, not many.
Don't get me wrong If I had a race team or I am building a max effort race car to extract every bit of power I would be calling you or Katech to design something for me that works only with my combo to get that last ounce of horsepower.
As far as this thread, there are not many more innovative ideas that can be made as far as the LS f body platform and motor. If there is it will be a very expensive venture that will not turn a profit so We are going to have to keep moving on in the progression of the LS platform one small step at a time.
Shop 1 does all this research and cam design and has to turn a profit after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing this cam. In turn they price their cam for $500.00 to make the profit margin they need to see.
Shop 2 makes and educated guess on some lobes on the given information from a motor and bypasses all this research and development so their profit margin is lower and they price their cam for $389.00
Now here is where the consumer comes in.
Both cams make very good power, so good in fact that they are in within 5-10 hp of each other on a motor with the same cubes. The word gets out with a great internet site such as your truly "ls1tech" about the 2 cams. Now I ask you which cam is the consumer going to buy. You guessed it, shop 2's cam.
So now shop 1 has spent all this money on r&d and probably most likely will just break even or turn a little profit and shop 2 is making a chunk load of money.
Look around this site and see how many people are running TSP 228's ot Tr224's or Trex cams. Then look and see who is running Katech cams, not many.
Don't get me wrong If I had a race team or I am building a max effort race car to extract every bit of power I would be calling you or Katech to design something for me that works only with my combo to get that last ounce of horsepower.
As far as this thread, there are not many more innovative ideas that can be made as far as the LS f body platform and motor. If there is it will be a very expensive venture that will not turn a profit so We are going to have to keep moving on in the progression of the LS platform one small step at a time.
Let's say you buy the shop 2 cam for $115.00 less. Shop 2 can't give you any advice because they don't fully understand valvetrain dynamics because they don't have the equipment to study the dynamics. Now the engine goes into valve float and drops a valve. I guess you can take the $115.00 and put it towards your $4000.00 rebuild.
Shops like Katech build their reputation by putting out the best possible product, not the highest volume. Race teams aren't looking to team up with the shop with the highest volume.
01-26-2011, 01:29 PM
#83
TECH Resident
I agree with VA Speed and Baker Engineering....
Horse Power is just one of the parts in the equation. Besides Peak HP does not win races, what about the power behind the dyno queen peak number. What about torque?
But enough about power/torque. Unless you do not care about reliability and valve train geometry, and you want to replace springs much earlier than necessary, or rebuild due to a dropped valve, then the R&D means something.
Take for example all the hype right now about Geoff's new EPS lobes, its not that hey make more power than a comp lobe, but they are quieter and easier on the valve train. (just an example, nothing to do the Katech)
Horse Power is just one of the parts in the equation. Besides Peak HP does not win races, what about the power behind the dyno queen peak number. What about torque?
But enough about power/torque. Unless you do not care about reliability and valve train geometry, and you want to replace springs much earlier than necessary, or rebuild due to a dropped valve, then the R&D means something.
Take for example all the hype right now about Geoff's new EPS lobes, its not that hey make more power than a comp lobe, but they are quieter and easier on the valve train. (just an example, nothing to do the Katech)
01-26-2011, 01:33 PM
#84
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You don't have to shop on price alone, but take Texas Speed for example. 100s and 100s of hours of dyno testing on multiple engines, multiples of different head and intake combos testing all sorts of cam profiles and combos, yet still their cams are ground by Comp Cams and they sell for $379..Figure that one out..
01-26-2011, 01:45 PM
#85
your assuming that most of the members here are uneducated buyers shopping on price alone. Because an educated buyer will realize that shopping on price alone usually costs you more in the long run.
Let's say you buy the shop 2 cam for $115.00 less. Shop 2 can't give you any advice because they don't fully understand valvetrain dynamics because they don't have the equipment to study the dynamics. Now the engine goes into valve float and drops a valve. I guess you can take the $115.00 and put it towards your $4000.00 rebuild.
Shops like Katech build their reputation by putting out the best possible product, not the highest volume. Race teams aren't looking to team up with the shop with the highest volume.
Let's say you buy the shop 2 cam for $115.00 less. Shop 2 can't give you any advice because they don't fully understand valvetrain dynamics because they don't have the equipment to study the dynamics. Now the engine goes into valve float and drops a valve. I guess you can take the $115.00 and put it towards your $4000.00 rebuild.
Shops like Katech build their reputation by putting out the best possible product, not the highest volume. Race teams aren't looking to team up with the shop with the highest volume.
Both shops selling their cams knows what it takes to control their cams so most of the time it is the consumer who is using the wrong product that causes the catastrophic failure you are describing. Not the cam like you are stating.
I agree with you on the race team thing but not many guys here are on a professional race team or have race team money. We just buy 385 dollar cams
01-26-2011, 09:23 PM
#88
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Personally I think you guys are missing the boat on some business with regard to the flywheel. No clutch company will ever make that flywheel. It would be completely counter productive, since they are in the business of making clutches. I understand that you want to sell complete, well engineered kits, which makes perfect sense. It assures that num nuts doesn't mix and match components and then blame you for the troubles. However, by pricing the flywheel so high you are missing on the oddball applications, such as TKO, Richmond, T10 or some other transmission mounted behind an LSx engine.
If it is your companies decision to actively ignore those customers, then so be it. Regardless of your strategy, the cost of your flywheel is completely out of line, as is Lingenfelter's. Remember your economics 101 class; if you build it, they will come.
Andrew
01-26-2011, 09:39 PM
#89
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You're misinterpreting my responses.
Simply not true.
Regarding the flywheel, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. When we spend thousands of dollars engineering a clutch kit we intend to sell a clutch kit. We don't intent to sell one small part of it and include a how-to guide to to make the kit yourself.
Regarding the GM parts, we simply can't sell them at any less than list price. We're not a GM parts warehouse, we don't have the hook up prices. There are plenty of GM Parts warehouses and we don't need to begin to compete with them. We should be focusing our efforts on designing unique products.
We did handle a complicated project like that when we designed and manufactured the XV16. If somebody was footing the bill we could do it again with a V10.
Simply not true.
Regarding the flywheel, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. When we spend thousands of dollars engineering a clutch kit we intend to sell a clutch kit. We don't intent to sell one small part of it and include a how-to guide to to make the kit yourself.
Regarding the GM parts, we simply can't sell them at any less than list price. We're not a GM parts warehouse, we don't have the hook up prices. There are plenty of GM Parts warehouses and we don't need to begin to compete with them. We should be focusing our efforts on designing unique products.
We did handle a complicated project like that when we designed and manufactured the XV16. If somebody was footing the bill we could do it again with a V10.
01-27-2011, 07:30 AM
#90
For the record, Lingenfelter is out of their minds too, with regard to pricing. In fact, you have the better deal since, Lingenlefter seems to have a cast flywheel compared to your aluminum wheel.
Personally I think you guys are missing the boat on some business with regard to the flywheel. No clutch company will ever make that flywheel. It would be completely counter productive, since they are in the business of making clutches. I understand that you want to sell complete, well engineered kits, which makes perfect sense. It assures that num nuts doesn't mix and match components and then blame you for the troubles. However, by pricing the flywheel so high you are missing on the oddball applications, such as TKO, Richmond, T10 or some other transmission mounted behind an LSx engine.
If it is your companies decision to actively ignore those customers, then so be it. Regardless of your strategy, the cost of your flywheel is completely out of line, as is Lingenfelter's. Remember your economics 101 class; if you build it, they will come.
Andrew
Personally I think you guys are missing the boat on some business with regard to the flywheel. No clutch company will ever make that flywheel. It would be completely counter productive, since they are in the business of making clutches. I understand that you want to sell complete, well engineered kits, which makes perfect sense. It assures that num nuts doesn't mix and match components and then blame you for the troubles. However, by pricing the flywheel so high you are missing on the oddball applications, such as TKO, Richmond, T10 or some other transmission mounted behind an LSx engine.
If it is your companies decision to actively ignore those customers, then so be it. Regardless of your strategy, the cost of your flywheel is completely out of line, as is Lingenfelter's. Remember your economics 101 class; if you build it, they will come.
Andrew
. Seriously though some of the posters in this thread are on crack. Tsp comparison to katech.... Really?
01-28-2011, 08:34 PM
#92
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What about custom F-Body motor mounts or a custom K-member and mounts to sit the engine lower in the engine bay? I recall seeing some sort of 1 inch lowering mounts some time ago but I can't recall where. Lowering the car's center of gravity would be nice... being able to fit a twin screw would be nicer. What if I had a dry sump pan, how low could I mount the engine then?
02-10-2011, 10:26 AM
#93
Here is a simple one, if Katech is even still looking at this, an engine oil cooler adapter with built in thermostat, -10 fittings, port for temperature sender and mounts above the oil filter as your other adapter does.
02-10-2011, 11:39 AM
#94
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02-16-2011, 04:26 PM
#95
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All I see is a bunch of cheap bastards On here that want everything handed to them. News flash people, you can't build a car off your unemployment checks. IT COST TO BE THE ******* BOSS! If you can't afford it go by forza 3 for 50 bucks and mod all you want.
02-16-2011, 04:55 PM
#96
How about some lightweight (~75g) hollow stem steel valves for smaller bore engines? I don't think you can get the LS6 intake valves from GM anymore, so I think there might be a gap to fill there. Maybe offer them a little longer for taller a installed height, maybe like an LS7.
02-18-2011, 01:11 AM
#98
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and again for racing purposes i feel there is a big need for a decent priced intake that works for the ls engine. i have seen l92heads flow 350+cfm @28inches and then bolt on the intake and watch it drop to 307cfm.....hmm maybe thats why the cncd version l92 heads dont gain much power.
02-18-2011, 01:16 AM
#100
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how about testing with piston cooling, maybe could get better bsfc(brake specific fuel consumption) as well as a few other benifits..i think theres a few pros n cons application depending to this