AFR 205s + ERL 427 (Baseline dyno numbers added, ET Added)
04-02-2011, 09:47 PM
#1
AFR 205s + ERL 427 (Baseline dyno numbers added, ET Added) This build really started a year ago when I had Tony port my AFR 205s and my Fast 90. It ended temporarily in August when I started blowing smoke out my tailpipes during the Ames Performance Pontiac Nationals. A leak-down test found that the #8 ring was bad and #3 wasn’t too far behind. The thing was, the results that I had gotten on the track were showing that the work Tony had done for me would have easily put me in the 11.2s or better with better DA in the fall. My PB to-date had been 11.49.
So I came down to two options, repair my LS1 stock bottom and get to see the results of Tony’s work as originally intended or go to bigger cubes. Then I realized that I could do both. After searching, I couldn’t find very much posted on AFR 205s on large cubes, specifically on a 427. So that’s what I decided to do, max out the 205s and put Tony’s work to a really “big” test. I selected an ERL 427 LS2 short block as the new base to build on. That was the easy part of the build selection. To do this right, however, I knew that I was going to have to have the right cam. I decided to go to Ed Curtis to find the right stick to pull together the marriage of the larger cubes with what many would now say would be undersized heads.
Another thing working against me is that my entire setup was built for the LS1 block and now these components that had work very well for me in the past would restrict both the intake and exhaust. The question is just how much … hopefully it won’t take too long to find that out. I do know two things, regardless of the outcome this build will be the slowest my 427 will ever run and that my 11.49 PB will be history.
The build is being done by Rich and Erik Johnson of BackStreet Performance. BackStreet is the shop that prepared the C5 of Brian Nutter (Weisco) for the 2010 Holly LS Fest, where he placed 1st in the high noon shootout, 1st in autocross comp tire, 2d in the 0-60-0 ABS comp tire and was runner-up for the overall Grand Championship title.
Here’s what I’m working with from last year’s head work
• AFR 205 head milled to 61 cc and ported by Tony Mamo
• 2.020 and 1.600 lightweight REV valves
• PAC Racing 1221 springs installed 155 on seat
• Morel Hydraulic Roller lifters (5206)
• YellaTerra Roller Rockers
The rest includes
• Kooks 1 ¾ Headers with catted mids
• Borla dual exit exhaust 2.25 pipes
• Svede OTRCAI
• 90mm Nick William TB
• 90mm Fast Intake ported by Tony Mamo
• Fast LS1 fuel rails
• Lingenfelter High Flow fuel Pump
• SLP underdrive pully
• Katech Belt tensioner
• Meziere Electric Water Pump
• MSD LS1 Blaster Coils
• Magnecor 8.5 ignition wires
• 42 lb flow matched injectors
• Manley LS2 double timing set
• LS6 ported oil pump
• Precision Industries Vigilante Converter (3200 triple disk)
• Rossler Terminator II Transmission
• Meziere flexplate
• Diff Technics 3.73 gears
• Harrop Diff cover
• Derale Atomic Cool Transmission Cooler
The AFR 205s, as ported by Tony, produced the following flow numbers. Based on other flow numbers I’ve seen, they compare to the intake numbers of an AFR 215 and the exhaust numbers of a AFR 225. ...that's on the 3.9 bore, on the 4.125 they'll be higher.
Intake
.200....154
.300....216
.400....268
.500....296
.550....305
.600....302
Exhaust
.200....132
.300....190
.400....222
.500....238
.600....247
The short block is a 427 ERL dry sleeved LS2. Compression will be 11.5:1 The engine components and specs are shown below
And finally the FlowTech Induction cam. I’m not sure Ed has published the specs for this cam so I’ll have to see if he comments. For now I can tell you this … it’s not a Comp. The power band is “roughly” 3000 to 6200 for 400-427 CID. Last year’s ring problem IMO was caused by my 7200 rev limit, I didn’t want to go there again and with the 427 I don’t need to run the RPMs that high.
The LS1 has been pulled and stripped of parts, the engine compartment has been cleaned and repainted as needed.
The heads were sent out to be cleaned and tested for leaks just to make sure there was no damage done last year. The results were that they are as good as the day I received them from Tony. Just as clean now too.
The lifters were sent to Ed Morel for inspection and they also came back with his good to go.
The build-up on the 427 will begin this week. Time will tell what the results are ... Tony and I already have waited a year to see these heads do their thing.
So I came down to two options, repair my LS1 stock bottom and get to see the results of Tony’s work as originally intended or go to bigger cubes. Then I realized that I could do both. After searching, I couldn’t find very much posted on AFR 205s on large cubes, specifically on a 427. So that’s what I decided to do, max out the 205s and put Tony’s work to a really “big” test. I selected an ERL 427 LS2 short block as the new base to build on. That was the easy part of the build selection. To do this right, however, I knew that I was going to have to have the right cam. I decided to go to Ed Curtis to find the right stick to pull together the marriage of the larger cubes with what many would now say would be undersized heads.
Another thing working against me is that my entire setup was built for the LS1 block and now these components that had work very well for me in the past would restrict both the intake and exhaust. The question is just how much … hopefully it won’t take too long to find that out. I do know two things, regardless of the outcome this build will be the slowest my 427 will ever run and that my 11.49 PB will be history.
The build is being done by Rich and Erik Johnson of BackStreet Performance. BackStreet is the shop that prepared the C5 of Brian Nutter (Weisco) for the 2010 Holly LS Fest, where he placed 1st in the high noon shootout, 1st in autocross comp tire, 2d in the 0-60-0 ABS comp tire and was runner-up for the overall Grand Championship title.
Here’s what I’m working with from last year’s head work
• AFR 205 head milled to 61 cc and ported by Tony Mamo
• 2.020 and 1.600 lightweight REV valves
• PAC Racing 1221 springs installed 155 on seat
• Morel Hydraulic Roller lifters (5206)
• YellaTerra Roller Rockers
The rest includes
• Kooks 1 ¾ Headers with catted mids
• Borla dual exit exhaust 2.25 pipes
• Svede OTRCAI
• 90mm Nick William TB
• 90mm Fast Intake ported by Tony Mamo
• Fast LS1 fuel rails
• Lingenfelter High Flow fuel Pump
• SLP underdrive pully
• Katech Belt tensioner
• Meziere Electric Water Pump
• MSD LS1 Blaster Coils
• Magnecor 8.5 ignition wires
• 42 lb flow matched injectors
• Manley LS2 double timing set
• LS6 ported oil pump
• Precision Industries Vigilante Converter (3200 triple disk)
• Rossler Terminator II Transmission
• Meziere flexplate
• Diff Technics 3.73 gears
• Harrop Diff cover
• Derale Atomic Cool Transmission Cooler
The AFR 205s, as ported by Tony, produced the following flow numbers. Based on other flow numbers I’ve seen, they compare to the intake numbers of an AFR 215 and the exhaust numbers of a AFR 225. ...that's on the 3.9 bore, on the 4.125 they'll be higher.
Intake
.200....154
.300....216
.400....268
.500....296
.550....305
.600....302
Exhaust
.200....132
.300....190
.400....222
.500....238
.600....247
The short block is a 427 ERL dry sleeved LS2. Compression will be 11.5:1 The engine components and specs are shown below
And finally the FlowTech Induction cam. I’m not sure Ed has published the specs for this cam so I’ll have to see if he comments. For now I can tell you this … it’s not a Comp. The power band is “roughly” 3000 to 6200 for 400-427 CID. Last year’s ring problem IMO was caused by my 7200 rev limit, I didn’t want to go there again and with the 427 I don’t need to run the RPMs that high.
The LS1 has been pulled and stripped of parts, the engine compartment has been cleaned and repainted as needed.
The heads were sent out to be cleaned and tested for leaks just to make sure there was no damage done last year. The results were that they are as good as the day I received them from Tony. Just as clean now too.
The lifters were sent to Ed Morel for inspection and they also came back with his good to go.
The build-up on the 427 will begin this week. Time will tell what the results are ... Tony and I already have waited a year to see these heads do their thing.
Last edited by GTO1_OHIO; 05-13-2011 at 06:02 PM.
04-03-2011, 08:19 AM
#3
I agree. The exhaust side will be the first thing to get upgrades. That alone should add some more hp but more importantly I have to do it before going to the larger heads I'm planning anyway.
Last edited by GTO1_OHIO; 04-03-2011 at 08:51 AM.
04-03-2011, 09:40 AM
#4
WHy not have Tony open the heads uo to 230V2s? I would imagine the heads would be a limiting factor.
04-03-2011, 09:57 AM
#5
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Why didn't you send your LS1 block to ERL for Superdeck treatment? By the time you add a core charge to the dry sleeve 427, you are close in price and all the LS1 stuff fits.
I expect you will have a real torque monster here. With the smaller heads and intake I am curious how much top end power you can support. You are down near 80 cfm on the intake side compared to ported LS7 heads.
Were the flow numbers you posted on a 3.9 inch or 4.125 bore?
I expect you will have a real torque monster here. With the smaller heads and intake I am curious how much top end power you can support. You are down near 80 cfm on the intake side compared to ported LS7 heads.
Were the flow numbers you posted on a 3.9 inch or 4.125 bore?
04-03-2011, 10:09 AM
#7
Why didn't you send your LS1 block to ERL for Superdeck treatment? By the time you add a core charge to the dry sleeve 427, you are close in price and all the LS1 stuff fits.
I expect you will have a real torque monster here. With the smaller heads and intake I am curious how much top end power you can support. You are down near 80 cfm on the intake side compared to ported LS7 heads.
Were the flow numbers you posted on a 3.9 inch or 4.125 bore?
I expect you will have a real torque monster here. With the smaller heads and intake I am curious how much top end power you can support. You are down near 80 cfm on the intake side compared to ported LS7 heads.
Were the flow numbers you posted on a 3.9 inch or 4.125 bore?
My GTO had the older style LS1 block and ERL will not work with it ... otherwise yes I would have gone for the Superdeck instead of having to buy a LS2 block and drysleeve.
Yes the bottom end is going to be something. The cam is going to try to help out some with the RPMs up top.
Flowed on a 3.9 bore I believe. Good point, I should flow a little better on the 4.125
Last edited by GTO1_OHIO; 04-03-2011 at 10:15 AM.
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04-03-2011, 11:08 AM
#8
04-03-2011, 01:42 PM
#9
I been eyeballing ( dreaming) of ERL 427 or 454 with either AFR230V2 or TFS235s. But then factor in a FAST 102 w/matching TB.......... YIKES. Getting kinda steep.
Has there ben many people doing say a 427 or 454 w/stock LS3 heads and intake/tb? I realize it would be giving up alot of power and more bottom end torque, but that might aid in getting it to the ground.
Dreaming of a nice engine package helps me work the OT. LOL
Has there ben many people doing say a 427 or 454 w/stock LS3 heads and intake/tb? I realize it would be giving up alot of power and more bottom end torque, but that might aid in getting it to the ground.
Dreaming of a nice engine package helps me work the OT. LOL
04-04-2011, 07:46 AM
#10
About the cam. Ed just let me know that he'd like to keep this one under wraps from his competition. What I can tell is that it is his MAX-AIR 16 grind that in his words has been "tweaked".
From Eds site:
MAX-AIR Series Camshafts
Serious Performance Usage
The highly successful "Max-Air" series camshafts are for serious performance usage only. These are the camshaft designs the record holders and class Champions are using!
Top ten racers know what they need and these are the bullets they use!
These profiles require very light weight valvetrain pieces and a ton of rear gear ratio for best performance.
From Eds site:
MAX-AIR Series Camshafts
Serious Performance Usage
The highly successful "Max-Air" series camshafts are for serious performance usage only. These are the camshaft designs the record holders and class Champions are using!
Top ten racers know what they need and these are the bullets they use!
These profiles require very light weight valvetrain pieces and a ton of rear gear ratio for best performance.
04-25-2011, 07:19 PM
#12
The engines pretty much ready to put back in and hopefully we'll have her cranking soon.
We finally had some luck. This weekend we found out that the 7.350 pushrods we used in lasts years build were perfect for this build also. Erik at BSP added his usual extra touch with a some silver high temp paint on various engine parts as well as on all the accessory brackets. The motor should look a lot cleaner when done.
and to let there be no doubt, ERL has left its mark on the build
We decided to upgrade to a Manley LS2 double roller timing set as well as a Melling oil pump and had no clearance issues with the timing cover.
The only part that we found that we needed to replace was my flex plate which had a crack between two of the teeth. We went with a neutral balanced SFI 29.1 Meziere flexplate. It is a one piece design machined from 4340 round bar.
We finally had some luck. This weekend we found out that the 7.350 pushrods we used in lasts years build were perfect for this build also. Erik at BSP added his usual extra touch with a some silver high temp paint on various engine parts as well as on all the accessory brackets. The motor should look a lot cleaner when done.
and to let there be no doubt, ERL has left its mark on the build
We decided to upgrade to a Manley LS2 double roller timing set as well as a Melling oil pump and had no clearance issues with the timing cover.
The only part that we found that we needed to replace was my flex plate which had a crack between two of the teeth. We went with a neutral balanced SFI 29.1 Meziere flexplate. It is a one piece design machined from 4340 round bar.
05-02-2011, 11:50 AM
#15
Great thread, can't wait to see how it runs and the numbers.
FWIW I'm looking at doing the same thing next winter so I'm real curious about the build. I'd like to go up to a 427 bottom end for more cubes after 10 years of a 346, but have nice AFR 205's and a Mamo-ported FAST 90. Would rather get the heads milled a hair, bigger valves, and re-use the top end to save some money. I do have the advantage of 1-7/8s ARH's on the exhaust side and 3" back.
FWIW I'm looking at doing the same thing next winter so I'm real curious about the build. I'd like to go up to a 427 bottom end for more cubes after 10 years of a 346, but have nice AFR 205's and a Mamo-ported FAST 90. Would rather get the heads milled a hair, bigger valves, and re-use the top end to save some money. I do have the advantage of 1-7/8s ARH's on the exhaust side and 3" back.
