Erl 398
Erl 398 This is my first major engine build and I'm looking for input on the whole thing but specifically the heads cam intake setup that would suit me best. Im looking to get 500+rwhp out of an ERL 4.185 " bore dry sleeve set up. This is a Pump Gas N/A build that may possibly see big nitrous thrown at it. Ill be using a stock length forged crank, forged H beam rods and forged flat top pistons. Id like to spin it between 7000 & 7500 rpm. It will be going through a t56 trans with stock ratios into a 12bolt with 4:11s i will be using a monster stage three puck style clutch with lightweight magnesium flywheel.
As far as heads im kind of stuck between an ls7 / ls3 head vs acathedral port setup from trick flow or afr
im really not sure what direction to go with on a cam either
Id appreciate all the help i can get
Thanks
Aaron
As far as heads im kind of stuck between an ls7 / ls3 head vs acathedral port setup from trick flow or afr
im really not sure what direction to go with on a cam either
Id appreciate all the help i can get
Thanks
Aaron
Last edited by indyjax88; Nov 16, 2011 at 03:55 AM.
Don't wanna discourage you but
I enquired about this already.
First off you don't wanna go to the bore limit on the block.
Leaves you 0 room
For refresh.
Those pistons also don't exist.
So your looking easily at over 1,200 plus 2-3 months wait time.
I have already talked to erl about doing it.
Talked to Callie's also.
Iirc I don't think they make a stock stroke compstar crank.
So your gonna need a custom unit.
K1 is also out of stock stroke cranks till next year
I called few weeks ago.
Your going to spend a ton on valve train components.
7500 rpm ain't gonna happen with patriot valve springs.
And trend pushrods.
I enquired about this already.
First off you don't wanna go to the bore limit on the block.
Leaves you 0 room
For refresh.
Those pistons also don't exist.
So your looking easily at over 1,200 plus 2-3 months wait time.
I have already talked to erl about doing it.
Talked to Callie's also.
Iirc I don't think they make a stock stroke compstar crank.
So your gonna need a custom unit.
K1 is also out of stock stroke cranks till next year
I called few weeks ago.
Your going to spend a ton on valve train components.
7500 rpm ain't gonna happen with patriot valve springs.
And trend pushrods.
IF you are going to have a block done go bigger ci it costs no more
That kind of RPM is not a big deal with the right valve train parts. You don't need anything trick or high dollar.
Tim
That kind of RPM is not a big deal with the right valve train parts. You don't need anything trick or high dollar.
Tim
i just took a look at the catalog my self and seen what blackz97 mentioned.
interesting.
went i spoke to the fella at wiesco he said that 4.130 pistons on a stock stroke are custom only.
interesting.
went i spoke to the fella at wiesco he said that 4.130 pistons on a stock stroke are custom only.
Trending Topics
while I'm doing the block work I'm going to have the block clearances for a larger stroker crank so if I'm not satisfied i can go all the way up to a 454. I'm looking to do something a little different than the normal big bore build and kind of play of the concept of the old DZ302 race engines. big bore short stroke with heads that love to breath and rev.
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TECH Enthusiast
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 537
Likes: 1
The DZ302 was a great engine but was built to compete in a 5 liter class, not because GM thought it was a great idea. In 1970 Trans Am racing allowed de-stroking engines and the Z28 went to the LT1 350 - a much better street engine.
For a street car, you might consider going with the crowd and a 4 inch stroke. Parts will be off the shelf and you can get your rpm goals.
For heads, if budget allows go for the LS7 style. Ti intakes would be great for high rpms but they dont come cheap. Budget, sleeved block and custom anything really don't go together.
For a street car, you might consider going with the crowd and a 4 inch stroke. Parts will be off the shelf and you can get your rpm goals.
For heads, if budget allows go for the LS7 style. Ti intakes would be great for high rpms but they dont come cheap. Budget, sleeved block and custom anything really don't go together.
You can pick up ls7 heads used for 1500 or ls3 heads used for 500. A cam for 400. My erl block hke built 454 revs to 7200 with stock ls7 rockers. It can be done for a budget price. With a 4.185 bore both sets of heads will breath good. You won't have to worry about the cylinder cupping the intake valve.
Last edited by delphigto; Nov 16, 2011 at 11:36 PM.
You can pick up ls7 heads used for 1500 or ls3 heads used for 500. A cam for 400. My erl block hke built 454 revs to 7200 with stock ls7 rockers. It can be done for a budget price. With a 4.185 bore both sets of heads will breath good. You won't have to worry about the cylinder cupping the intake valve.
Also how much lift can ls3 valve springs take before the need upgraded?
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,845
Likes: 255
From: Coast of San Mateo County Between Pacifica & HMB
Big bore ERL 398 I too, want to do a big bore stock stroke ERL build.
Wiseco has long rods 6.365 & 4.185 pistons to fit stock crank,
I believe these are off the shelf parts as well not custom.
My plan is to utilize AFR 230 V2 heads with upgraded springs
and lighter valves.These heads have enough airflow for 650+
crank hp 550+ rwhp (with manual trans) and with 50 cc smaller
ports will have much better hp and torque through the whole
curve not to mention incredible throttle response.Fast manifold
Will need to be ported ideally Mamofied to carry peak hp to
6800 rpm + .
Cam. 239/243 at least 114 to 116 LC, Lift .624
0 degrees adv.
243/247 duration would be at the large end other specs the same.
Compression 11.5:1
All the other little details EEC light clutch, flywheel etc.
This combo should make 620 hp crank 540 rwhp ~ 6800 rpm
And carry to 7200 with very little drop off.
I witnessed a 407 w/ 4.022 bores and AFR 215s 242/242 .610
114 +3 degrees adv 11.5:1 comp made 618, 540 rwhp
@6300 rpm in m6 c5 Z06. Tony. Mamo built Engine Master/Popular
HotRodding Cover/Feature.
Bigger Bore, Bigger Heads, Bigger Cam,
Better/Longer Rod/Ratio should push peak out at least 500 rpm
With very little fall off to 7200 rpm.
Just food for thought.
Flame Suit on LOL.
Wiseco has long rods 6.365 & 4.185 pistons to fit stock crank,
I believe these are off the shelf parts as well not custom.
My plan is to utilize AFR 230 V2 heads with upgraded springs
and lighter valves.These heads have enough airflow for 650+
crank hp 550+ rwhp (with manual trans) and with 50 cc smaller
ports will have much better hp and torque through the whole
curve not to mention incredible throttle response.Fast manifold
Will need to be ported ideally Mamofied to carry peak hp to
6800 rpm + .
Cam. 239/243 at least 114 to 116 LC, Lift .624
0 degrees adv.
243/247 duration would be at the large end other specs the same.
Compression 11.5:1
All the other little details EEC light clutch, flywheel etc.
This combo should make 620 hp crank 540 rwhp ~ 6800 rpm
And carry to 7200 with very little drop off.
I witnessed a 407 w/ 4.022 bores and AFR 215s 242/242 .610
114 +3 degrees adv 11.5:1 comp made 618, 540 rwhp
@6300 rpm in m6 c5 Z06. Tony. Mamo built Engine Master/Popular
HotRodding Cover/Feature.
Bigger Bore, Bigger Heads, Bigger Cam,
Better/Longer Rod/Ratio should push peak out at least 500 rpm
With very little fall off to 7200 rpm.
Just food for thought.
Flame Suit on LOL.
Last edited by NAVYBLUE210; Nov 19, 2011 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Spelling
I too, want to do a big bore stock stroke ERL build.
Wiseco has long rods 6.365 & 4.185 pistons to fit stock crank,
I believe these are off the shelf parts as well not custom.
My plan is to utilize AFR 230 V2 heads with upgraded springs
and lighter valves.These heads have enough airflow for 650+
crank hp 550+ rwhp (with manual trans) and with 50 cc smaller
ports will have much better hp and torque through the whole
curve not to mention incredible throttle response.Fast manifold
Will need to be ported ideally Mamofied to carry peak hp to
6800 rpm + .
Cam. 239/243 at least 114 to 116 LC, Lift .624
0 degrees adv.
243/247 duration would be at the large end other specs the same.
Compression 11.5:1
All the other little details EEC light clutch, flywheel etc.
This combo should make 620 hp crank 540 rwhp ~ 6800 rpm
And carry to 7200 with very little drop off.
I witnessed a 407 w/ 4.022 bores and AFR 215s 242/242 .610
114 +3 degrees adv 11.5:1 comp made 618, 540 rwhp
@6300 rpm in m6 c5 Z06. Tony. Mamo built Engine Master/Popular
HotRodding Cover/Feature.
Bigger Bore, Bigger Heads, Bigger Cam,
Better/Longer Rod/Ratio should push peak out at least 500 rpm
With very little fall off to 7200 rpm.
Just food for thought.
Flame Suit on LOL.
Wiseco has long rods 6.365 & 4.185 pistons to fit stock crank,
I believe these are off the shelf parts as well not custom.
My plan is to utilize AFR 230 V2 heads with upgraded springs
and lighter valves.These heads have enough airflow for 650+
crank hp 550+ rwhp (with manual trans) and with 50 cc smaller
ports will have much better hp and torque through the whole
curve not to mention incredible throttle response.Fast manifold
Will need to be ported ideally Mamofied to carry peak hp to
6800 rpm + .
Cam. 239/243 at least 114 to 116 LC, Lift .624
0 degrees adv.
243/247 duration would be at the large end other specs the same.
Compression 11.5:1
All the other little details EEC light clutch, flywheel etc.
This combo should make 620 hp crank 540 rwhp ~ 6800 rpm
And carry to 7200 with very little drop off.
I witnessed a 407 w/ 4.022 bores and AFR 215s 242/242 .610
114 +3 degrees adv 11.5:1 comp made 618, 540 rwhp
@6300 rpm in m6 c5 Z06. Tony. Mamo built Engine Master/Popular
HotRodding Cover/Feature.
Bigger Bore, Bigger Heads, Bigger Cam,
Better/Longer Rod/Ratio should push peak out at least 500 rpm
With very little fall off to 7200 rpm.
Just food for thought.
Flame Suit on LOL.
I've been doing a little more research of my own. i talked to another member and he confirmed that the piston is made. so we should both be good there. hadn't looked into the rods yet but now i don't have to!
I'm most likely going to go with an ls3 head and intake and have them port matched with a 92mm TB and see were that gets me for now. from what i here if you are not a 400 cube+ car your only going to pick up like 14rwhp max on a stock ls3 head. so for me, the savings will pay for a decent nitrous kit so i may loose a bit down low daily driving but when its time to show your cards ill be in good shape lol
is the cam u mentioned in your post the one you are going to use?
i read that article on tonys build. its a good one!
thanks again
Aaron
Last edited by indyjax88; Nov 20, 2011 at 10:47 PM. Reason: Spelling...stupid smart phones...
Everything looks good as far as your plans, But I have to agree with the other guy on the bore size.
In the event theres a mishap with the engine, It would be nice to have a rebuild still left. I know there are 4.155" bore Pistons out there available. All you'd have to do is look into them working with a stock stroke crank.
ALSO, Not only the benefit of a rebuild being nice, But the fact that it would give you more area between the cylinders will make it more durable when spraying a BIG shot like you're intending on doing.
A 4.185" Bore will not have alot of room for head gasket sealing, and with a large shot A head gasket blowing out could occur. Just keep those in mind.
But other than that, I like the thought process going into this engine build. It's very nice to see something different.
As for the heads, I think The LS3's would be a very nice choice. Not to mention you could get a nice set of CNC Ported heads for about $1500+.
Good Luck man!
-James
In the event theres a mishap with the engine, It would be nice to have a rebuild still left. I know there are 4.155" bore Pistons out there available. All you'd have to do is look into them working with a stock stroke crank.
ALSO, Not only the benefit of a rebuild being nice, But the fact that it would give you more area between the cylinders will make it more durable when spraying a BIG shot like you're intending on doing.
A 4.185" Bore will not have alot of room for head gasket sealing, and with a large shot A head gasket blowing out could occur. Just keep those in mind.
But other than that, I like the thought process going into this engine build. It's very nice to see something different.
As for the heads, I think The LS3's would be a very nice choice. Not to mention you could get a nice set of CNC Ported heads for about $1500+.
Good Luck man!
-James
Teching In
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 14
I would not buy a forged crank for this. I would go 4.155 with a factory crank, maybe out of a 6.0 or 6.2 to help with balancing. buy forged rods. for heads stock ls3 with good valve springs. when you get rich or bored, buy a forged 4.xxx crank, ti rods, bore it to 4.185, and some ls7 or better heads. what ever you do keep us posted, it sounds fun.
^^Thanks man.
I'm Glad I'm not the only 1 thinking be conservative on the bore size.
Stock LS3 heads are Very Cheap, and produce great results in stock form. So you could def go that route and save some big $. Enough to cover a nice Nitrous kit. Hell you may be very surprised at how much you end up having in it.
I'm Glad I'm not the only 1 thinking be conservative on the bore size.
Stock LS3 heads are Very Cheap, and produce great results in stock form. So you could def go that route and save some big $. Enough to cover a nice Nitrous kit. Hell you may be very surprised at how much you end up having in it.
All bore 398 I was thinking about a similar build. Would definately be cool with a 6.365 rod too. Just make sure whoever specs a cam out for you understands what that longer rod does in terms of dwell @TDC and BDC.
Keep us posted!
I was thinking about a similar build. Would definately be cool with a 6.365 rod too. Just make sure whoever specs a cam out for you understands what that longer rod does in terms of dwell @TDC and BDC.Keep us posted!