-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

The reason I asked about the MAF is I was searching for info on New Era and stumbled on their OTR intake for 5th gen Camaros. I really like the design & concept of minimal, direct tubing with the filter placed out in front of the radiator, but it does compromise the desire for fully established flow going into the MAF (like what you'd get with a long length of tube). Here's a picture:



I find it interesting that this style of cold air intake design was used on the 4th gen camaros, but hasn't really found its way onto other models from the factory. I'm guessing it's driven by packaging.

No Hope

Has New Era, Texas Speed or anyone else tried using a DC servo motor with a shaft encoder to control the Cam phasing?

A AB Micro Logic's with a high speed counter card could give you complete control of the cam at any RPM.

You Might have to use something more than a Micro Logic, I haven't looked for one with a high speed counting card.

cam

iTrader: (9)

The technical side of control is fine the ECM does have quite excellent tables and HP has access to modifying them just fine thats not the "control" issue I speak of. You'd have to physically take one apart and see how it works to understand what I mean ( Im only assuming you havent so this isnt meant to flame or dis or whatever ) but the mechanical components of how the cam phaser is controlled are the things I think are causing the inconsistency. Its just too small or dinky a set up to do its job perfectly. It does work and work well its just that from what others have posted and in my brief experience ( only had the car out for a few weeks before the snow came ) that it seems there is some inconsistency to the cam timing at high RPM. It makes such a BIG difference in power output its noticeable when driving.

But man the power is there.....

By the end of this summer I'm sure there will be LOTS more info about this stuff the learning curve is steep but fruitful

No Hope

The small dinky things and the inconsistency at high RPMs is why a DC servo would be a better way to control the Cam. I have never had one apart but I'm dying to. If someone is doing RD in the St Louis area PM me.

If I knew what type of signal the ECM is using to control the Cam I could better explain it. If anyone has the Ladder logic or any program info please send it to me.

Think about how the Throttle body works but only bigger. You press on the gas pedal and the ECM reads an input then sends an output to the tiny DC servo motor on the throttle body.

A servo motor has as much torque as you want to send to it. It could easily handle any double spring valve set up at any RPM.

The only reason GM or anybody else doesn't use it would be cost or they don't want to spend the money on new RD for it.

cam

iTrader: (9)

Hmmm well I think the main issue is likely going to be the valve itself. Its a plunger in the cam bolt that diverts oil flow in a way that rotates the cam shaft. Brilliant idea really they just should have gave the thing more throw than what it has. I agree that a servo can drive mighty mighty ( My sub at home is servo driven for instance and it POUNDS lol ) but its the limitations of the driven component more than the driver in the case of these gen IV VVT set ups. I supose a new valve could be machined or perhaps a whole new drive system that was purely electronic would work out even better but the work involved as a moonlighter just wanting to go fast? Is too much for me Id need to get paid out the *** to justify the time req'd to develop that tech. But it is certainly doable

Anything is doable really... The never ending game of more horse power. Gotta love it

litle88

iTrader: (20)

With all due respect CAM you know I think your a good and know your stuff too but I don't know if Ill agree bud. Simply because I know if I was in the business I wouldn't want anyone to know my secrets after hrs and hrs of working on something then I don't get to see it payoff. Maybe they can get it patented or something.

No Hope

Think about it, that Phaser has those plates that limit the cam from advancing or retarding too much. The Solenoid gets a signal from a control system that's connected to the ECU. And basically the Solenoid sends Hydraulic flow from the oil pump to an actuator that retard the cam.

The cam shaft sensor only gives the ECU one input per RPM. A shaft encoder will give it 360 inputs per RPM. Much more control. You still use the cam shaft sensor to Home the encoder so it doesn't get lost.

The oil pump puts out a Maximum oil pressure, the VVT system uses some of that oil to retard the cam. It can't use it all or the motor would seize, so there is a limit to how much torque the phasing system can handle. A servo motor could hold the cam with more than enough torque to handle big cams and double springs.

A 8000 rpm servo would be plenty to keep up. You would have to size the HP of the motor to 120% to 140% of the maximum torque of the largest lift cam with the strongest spring system. The DC motor can coast when the cam doesn't need to be retard so it would last a long time. Heat might be a factor but I'm sure there is a servo that can handle it.

I know there is a lot more than what I have posted but that's the rough version, Yes?

How sure are you that the Phaser can hold the timing say a 1/4 of the maximum travel or 1/2 and 3/4? per RPM consistently? I'm not saying if doesn't, I just don't know

cam

iTrader: (9)

Well I understand I run a business myself. Its nothing to do with cars but Im an OPEN book with info and how its done if anyone wants to even listen. It gets so damn technical no one seems to want to learn they would simply rather pay up and let me take care of it. I work around the freakin clock. More business than I want really. I did this by confidence in my own skills and lack of fear over "trade secrets" which is kind of what we're talking about here. All I can say is I meet a lot of folks who want more business, not less, and these places are tight lipped thinking this is they way to go and in my experience it just hasnt been that way. Winning a customers confidence is a HELL of a lot easier if you can explain and help them understand what they're buying. The old "just hand over the credit card and let me take care of it" is one HARD *** sell man so if thats what you guys are doing and succeeding at? Congrats carry on Im merely babbling from my own experience in the game of life is all.

Now as for why I want to know this stuff? Man its simple

I just wanna go FAST!!! Reaaaaaalll fukn FAST and I loathe breaking parts nothing ruins a mans day worse than breaking your toys. So its my endless pursuit to not only build fast, but TOUGH.

On this line of thought thats precisely what makes this board so damn powerful. Theres LOTS of us here who wanna go fast and build good **** but.... things have changed.... the open book sharing technology that we ALL go faster with has become something now focused on short term $$$$ not long term success these days. For instance Im sure if all the key players in this game would just open their hands and say "heres what Ive got" what do you think? We'd all benefit

The guys that stroke the cheque to go fast will still do so. The guys that want to build their own will also still do so. The difference is we'd give credit where credits due and thats PRECISELY why theres an EPS PatG spec'd custom grind in my L92 t56 swap rather than a New Era cam even though I called there first.....

So to each his own I guess and I aint trying to ruffle no feathers I just wanna go fast and dont really want to keep it to myself I like to see others go fast too I get great pleasure in LSx greatness hehehe

cam

iTrader: (9)

Hmmm yes well it certainly has potential to do this and from your explanation it really wouldnt be "that" hard to whip something like that up but...

The issue with this is we would have to assume the driver is the issue and not the oil pressure overcoming the valve and/or some crazy combination of both and/or more mysteries in there.... So while this all makes sense to me, I fear it would still be a lot of R&D to prove what specifically is the hurdle needing to be jumped.

Makes me think of guys like Yunick, and Morrison for how they developed their "secrets" if you will. Smokey used to cut engines up and glue em back together with heavy duty plexi glass then fire em up and run em and just sit back and watch. What failed, why, and how becomes mighty apparent when you can watch it go down.

Then Morrison takes this a step further and invents the stroboscope ( sp? ) thing he used to stop valve springs in motion at any specific RPM and lift and he discovered the valves were bouncing too much causing the instability and taking out the rest of the engine etc. Which is now why his shop is one if not THE best shop at BBC builds.

So back to my concerns? I dont get paid for any of this and Im busy as heck so its kinda hard to keep playing when no ones payin. So I suppose I just hope we all keep keepin on and sharin ideas and amongst the lot of us we'll make more power. I have no doubt in that fact actually.

More powaaaaaaaaa

But back to the point at hand after five seconds of thought here. I think a completely electronic control would be better. Screw the hydraulics right out of the picture and just make a new phaser thats rotation is controlled by the ECM and I would have to think that would be the way to fly. The issue with modding what we have comes down to the limitations of the factory valve. Its a weird little gadget that my guess has as much to do with departmental turf wars within GM than anything else. Everyone wants to keep their job so..... follow the dollars and things start to look differently.

Regardless I think the book will be considerably different with the gen IV engines coming soon. From what Ive heard/read they will share LSx bottom ends its just the top ends and the direct injection that are going to be the big changes. Makes sense I guess you sure cant argue the durability of these LS short blocks. Take a licken and keep on tickin

litle88

iTrader: (20)

I see your point!

That would be nice.

No Hope

Monday I'm going to the shop that did my tune and see what kind of info he has. The owner is pretty sharp and might have some input that will help. He is definitely not afraid of technology and he is more than willing to share what he knows.

Another problem this system has is there is no feed back from the Solenoid spool to let the ECU know where its at. Any Hydraulic system that has a controlled speed needs a transducer to let the ECU or PLC know how far the valve is open. Just sending an output to the solenoid isn't enough to keep it steady. My guess is that this system is using the position on the phase adjuster to guess at where the spool is.

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

Hey smarty pants, I think you mean gen 5. I'm glad to see we're all getting on the same page with this debate.

cam

iTrader: (9)

fixed it for ya LOL

ClimberD

Impressed by how some people are deleting VVT let alone not going bananas to get VVT into their non-VVT motors. I guess some people on here don't play with other companies' motors from the past decade.
I personally was on the fence about swapping a LS1/LS2 into my project car since I cannot fit a roots blower on it and retain my car's hood, and thus am concerned that the bump in N/A low end torque is not enough over a 2.5L twinscroll turbocharged motor to justify the headache and cost of the swap. But with the L92 priced so affordably, it's the perfect engine (with a few small swapped items like L76 intake)... sure it may need a built bottom end to go FI, but its got the best stock heads, newer injector technology, VVT, and 6.2L displacement... PERFECT! I cannot wait to buy one of these and build a true street terror that can hold its own for the price even without FI

Then when GM launches the 5th gen V8s, it will be the same old story... DIRECT INJECTION?!?! delete that crap!

3pedals

iTrader: (3)

Someone should start a list of the fastest 1/4 mile ET and mph with vvt

studderin

iTrader: (28)

I think Mike @ newera has a the fastest with his car? bolt ons, ported L99 heads, newera VVT cam, on the 20inch rims a few years ago it went a 11.43 I think it was . Just under 120. 119.x. I'm not up to date on the 5th gen, but haven't seen any faster.

3pedals

iTrader: (3)

Not just 5th gens, ANY VVT equipped LS, just need to show what the race weight is.

studderin

iTrader: (28)

thous cars are heavy, think its about 4200 with driver

litle88

iTrader: (20)

Wow studderin didn't realize that, I think he said it was full weight? Even the stock 20's didn't he?

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

We at Pantera EFI have used the VVT with closed loop "feed back" CAM POSITIONING.

There is a "post" that needs to be added to the LS-92 VVT cam when inserted into a LS-1 block.
This steel item is inserted AFTER the last lobe, as in the LS-1 cam position.

The EMS can now have cam position "feed back" when the LS-1 Hall sensor is connected.

Lance