would titanium valves make gains
01-31-2013, 04:05 PM
#21
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Valve weight and rotating weight are not the same, comparing the two is kinda like the apples and oranges thing. If overall weight is that big of a concern, I would advise skipping the cheesburger on the way to the track. Haha.
The OP stated in the first post that the RPM limit is 6800, at this rpm I see no perfomance advantage to spending money on valves.
The OP stated in the first post that the RPM limit is 6800, at this rpm I see no perfomance advantage to spending money on valves.
01-31-2013, 06:58 PM
#22
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I think the weight being reduced in the valve does transmit into gain. My take is that the push-rod and lifter are the heavy end of this deal. The rocker is spec so it is what it is. What I see as the unanswered question is what is the weight difference? is it worth the delta in cost/maintenance for the gain. I guess I will have to build a set and see what I get vs a stock valve.
I have not found a Titanium valve to build on yet. I don't want to have a custom valve made. I will have to dig in and find a valve. There has to be one out there.
I have not found a Titanium valve to build on yet. I don't want to have a custom valve made. I will have to dig in and find a valve. There has to be one out there.
01-31-2013, 07:17 PM
#23
Have you checked out these springs? Their record is impeccable and it speaks for itself!
"0"!!
http://www.briantooleyracing.com/660...retainers.html
"0"!!
http://www.briantooleyracing.com/660...retainers.html
01-31-2013, 08:26 PM
#24
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No. Reducing valve weight gives more gains proportionately than rotating weight. Valves reciprocate as well as move forward. For very rough calculations consider reducing chassis weight by 10 pounds /horsepower, rotating weight (depending on how far the mass is away from the center of rotation) can be down to 6 pounds/horsepower. Now reciprocating weight reductions can be worth down to 3 pounds /horsepower. Valves, springs, pushrods, pistons, they all add up.
When it comes to rotating engine weight. The instant the vehicle is put into gear (load applied), the engine rotating weight quickly becomes secondary. The load will not allow the engine to rev as fast as it would without the load. The load itself will always be the limiting factor on how quick the engine revs.
If the OP feels lighter valves will benefit, thats fine by me.
+1 On the Brian Tooley springs, thats what I am using.
01-31-2013, 09:11 PM
#25
No. Reducing valve weight gives more gains proportionately than rotating weight. Valves reciprocate as well as move forward. For very rough calculations consider reducing chassis weight by 10 pounds /horsepower, rotating weight (depending on how far the mass is away from the center of rotation) can be down to 6 pounds/horsepower. Now reciprocating weight reductions can be worth down to 3 pounds /horsepower. Valves, springs, pushrods, pistons, they all add up.
02-01-2013, 02:32 AM
#26
I'd take a look at the PAC 1211X beehive springs, specs look almost identical to the PSI 1511ML springs, but there priced lower, between the PAC1218s and 1518s.
http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive...1211X/sku2/812
http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive...1211X/sku2/812
02-01-2013, 08:01 AM
#27
The stock hollow stem LS3 intake valves weigh about 89 grams. An aftermarket titanium valve with the same head diameter would be in the uppper 70's for weight. I just had a guy with some SC1 heads and his titanium valves were over 100 grams, but they had big head diameters and long stems. I would stay with the stock LS3 valves.
Are vacuum pumps allowed? Lightweight billet crank with Honda rod journals allowed? Since they have so many rules on the top end, I would be working on the bottom end.
Which intake do you have to run?
Are vacuum pumps allowed? Lightweight billet crank with Honda rod journals allowed? Since they have so many rules on the top end, I would be working on the bottom end.
Which intake do you have to run?
02-01-2013, 08:52 AM
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It is pretty much accepted that for every 100 pounds reduced, a vehicle will be 1/10 of a second quicker in the 1/4. Now if we are talking 10 pounds, we are looking at 1/100 of a second. This would not be noticable.
When it comes to rotating engine weight. The instant the vehicle is put into gear (load applied), the engine rotating weight quickly becomes secondary. The load will not allow the engine to rev as fast as it would without the load. The load itself will always be the limiting factor on how quick the engine revs.
If the OP feels lighter valves will benefit, thats fine by me.
+1 On the Brian Tooley springs, thats what I am using.
When it comes to rotating engine weight. The instant the vehicle is put into gear (load applied), the engine rotating weight quickly becomes secondary. The load will not allow the engine to rev as fast as it would without the load. The load itself will always be the limiting factor on how quick the engine revs.
If the OP feels lighter valves will benefit, thats fine by me.
+1 On the Brian Tooley springs, thats what I am using.
Also, the lighter the reciprocating and rotating weight within the engine, the faster it will rev. Try just a lighter flywheel and see how much faster the engine revs.
02-01-2013, 09:31 AM
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Here is some info on the effects of swapping to titanium parts in an engine and the horsepower that frees up:
Titanium Products
FOR MORE INFO OR TO ORDER CALL (205) 823-7278 OR EMAIL gofast@paeco.com
Fantastic strength and light weight !
The following new items, made from titanium, were introduced by PAECO in 1999. Titanium is a unique metal that is approximately twice as strong as steel, but only one half the weight. Since a tremendous amount of HP is consumed in an engine by simply moving parts up and down at high RPM, titanium can provide both more power and greater reliability. Parts can be made at twice the strength and half the weight, OR at the same strength and 1/4th the weight. If you are a serious racer, you should consider titanium for your engine.
Titanium Wristpins
A standard or chrome-moly wristpin usually weighs up to 1/2 of what its’ corresponding forged aluminum piston weighs. By changing to titanium pins and using the "1/4th the weight and same strength" approach, the total reciprocating weight can be reduced drastically, resulting in big HP gains. As an example, a piston may weigh 400 grams and the pin 200 grams. By reducing the weight of the pin to 50 grams, we save 150 grams per rod/piston assembly, or 900 grams for a 6-cyl engine (approx. 2 pounds). At 6000 RPM, this would provide a gain of about 10 horsepower. At higher RPM, the gain would be even more. Wristpins are made to order. We must know both the diameter and length of the pin you need. The price is $150.00 per pin.
Titanium Retainers
The same thinking applies to valve spring retainers, as we make them half the weight, but twice as strong. Anyone who has ever had a retainer fail and subsequently dropped a valve down into an engine at high RPM will appreciate that doubled strength. We have retainer patterns for most engines, but if we don’t have a pattern for yours, then you will have to send a stock retainer, a valve, and a pair of valve keepers to us to use as patterns. The price is $25 per retainer. You can see a listing of retainers in the Camshaft & Valve Train section under you make of car.
Titanium Pushrods
Most performance pushrod engines suffer from "pushrod flex", in which the pushrods are bowed at high RPM due to heavy valve spring pressure and high valve lift. This results in erratic valve timing and power loss. Chrome-moly pushrods do solve this problem, but they are heavy and inflict a power loss due to the increased weight. Aluminum pushrods with a larger diameter rod also solve the problem, but with only a slight decrease in weight. Titanium pushrods have 1/2 the weight and twice the strength of chrome-moly. Not only do they solve the flexing problem, but they also actually provide a few extra HP due to weight reduction. Titanium pushrods are ordered by length, and you can specify any length you want at no extra charge. The price is $35.00 per pushrod. See the Camshaft & Valve Train page.
Titanium in PAECO engines
All of our stage four engines now use titanium wristpins, retainers, and pushrods (if applicable). Titanium components are optional on all of the other stages. If you have an older PAECO catalog and compare the HP outputs of the older non-titanium engines with the HP of the new titanium engines listed in this catalog, the difference is astounding.
Titanium parts make a car go faster and increase reliability !!
Titanium Products
FOR MORE INFO OR TO ORDER CALL (205) 823-7278 OR EMAIL gofast@paeco.com
Fantastic strength and light weight !
The following new items, made from titanium, were introduced by PAECO in 1999. Titanium is a unique metal that is approximately twice as strong as steel, but only one half the weight. Since a tremendous amount of HP is consumed in an engine by simply moving parts up and down at high RPM, titanium can provide both more power and greater reliability. Parts can be made at twice the strength and half the weight, OR at the same strength and 1/4th the weight. If you are a serious racer, you should consider titanium for your engine.
Titanium Wristpins
A standard or chrome-moly wristpin usually weighs up to 1/2 of what its’ corresponding forged aluminum piston weighs. By changing to titanium pins and using the "1/4th the weight and same strength" approach, the total reciprocating weight can be reduced drastically, resulting in big HP gains. As an example, a piston may weigh 400 grams and the pin 200 grams. By reducing the weight of the pin to 50 grams, we save 150 grams per rod/piston assembly, or 900 grams for a 6-cyl engine (approx. 2 pounds). At 6000 RPM, this would provide a gain of about 10 horsepower. At higher RPM, the gain would be even more. Wristpins are made to order. We must know both the diameter and length of the pin you need. The price is $150.00 per pin.
Titanium Retainers
The same thinking applies to valve spring retainers, as we make them half the weight, but twice as strong. Anyone who has ever had a retainer fail and subsequently dropped a valve down into an engine at high RPM will appreciate that doubled strength. We have retainer patterns for most engines, but if we don’t have a pattern for yours, then you will have to send a stock retainer, a valve, and a pair of valve keepers to us to use as patterns. The price is $25 per retainer. You can see a listing of retainers in the Camshaft & Valve Train section under you make of car.
Titanium Pushrods
Most performance pushrod engines suffer from "pushrod flex", in which the pushrods are bowed at high RPM due to heavy valve spring pressure and high valve lift. This results in erratic valve timing and power loss. Chrome-moly pushrods do solve this problem, but they are heavy and inflict a power loss due to the increased weight. Aluminum pushrods with a larger diameter rod also solve the problem, but with only a slight decrease in weight. Titanium pushrods have 1/2 the weight and twice the strength of chrome-moly. Not only do they solve the flexing problem, but they also actually provide a few extra HP due to weight reduction. Titanium pushrods are ordered by length, and you can specify any length you want at no extra charge. The price is $35.00 per pushrod. See the Camshaft & Valve Train page.
Titanium in PAECO engines
All of our stage four engines now use titanium wristpins, retainers, and pushrods (if applicable). Titanium components are optional on all of the other stages. If you have an older PAECO catalog and compare the HP outputs of the older non-titanium engines with the HP of the new titanium engines listed in this catalog, the difference is astounding.
Titanium parts make a car go faster and increase reliability !!
02-01-2013, 11:12 AM
#30
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good2go I spent a few years building 355's with limited carburation for paved 1/4 mile short track racing, I may not know everything but I have a good idea what is important to make an engine accelerate. You have your opinion and I have mine, thats fine. Have a good day.
02-01-2013, 11:52 AM
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good2go I spent a few years building 355's with limited carburation for paved 1/4 mile short track racing, I may not know everything but I have a good idea what is important to make an engine accelerate. You have your opinion and I have mine, thats fine. Have a good day.
02-06-2013, 12:55 PM
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Ok, I have to say.....
Titanium pushrods: Not stiff enough, too ductile
Titanium retainers:half the weight, twice as strong....check your math for starters. Also, Titanium is not twice as strong as steel, nor is it the same strength as steel. Close yes, but not the same...
not opinion...fact
Titanium pushrods: Not stiff enough, too ductile
Titanium retainers:half the weight, twice as strong....check your math for starters. Also, Titanium is not twice as strong as steel, nor is it the same strength as steel. Close yes, but not the same...
not opinion...fact
02-06-2013, 07:14 PM
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I hear what both camps are saying . I have to agree with some of what good2go is saying. Road racing engines are not in that steady state like a circle track engine. Not to take anything away from that camp, making usable power within the rules it the goal of both. No need to snipe. Drag racing is the ultimate delta right zero to what you get. At the end of the day Its all HP to weight. But with rules those values are defined.
The bottom end could get narrow barrings but that would just hurt durability. It might gain power but would add to much engine building to the program.
rules prohibit light cranks or vacuum pumps.
These engines do not spin up past 6800. Torque gains are as important as Hp. keep the input coming The spit balling is helping.
The bottom end could get narrow barrings but that would just hurt durability. It might gain power but would add to much engine building to the program.
rules prohibit light cranks or vacuum pumps.
These engines do not spin up past 6800. Torque gains are as important as Hp. keep the input coming The spit balling is helping.
Last edited by tsheehan; 02-06-2013 at 07:21 PM. Reason: i cant spell
02-07-2013, 08:55 AM
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Is it different than iron and titanium? Cause sintered iron is what GM uses for valve guides for titanium valves. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.
"No kidding, those NASCAR guys running those solid billet steel pushrods must be dumbasses too!"
Apples and oranges. 6,800 rpm Vs 9,000+ rpm (double the rpm gives quadruple the load)
"Titanium pushrods: Not stiff enough, too ductile"
So Ti VALVES are stiff enough and can take the heat well enough to be warrantied for 50,000 miles but not as pushrods? The valve has a much harder life than a pushrod. It also has much smaller area to take the same load as a pushrod. Think how stiff the material must be around the retainer to not deform and how small it is there. It's stiff enough.
"No kidding, those NASCAR guys running those solid billet steel pushrods must be dumbasses too!"
Apples and oranges. 6,800 rpm Vs 9,000+ rpm (double the rpm gives quadruple the load)
"Titanium pushrods: Not stiff enough, too ductile"
So Ti VALVES are stiff enough and can take the heat well enough to be warrantied for 50,000 miles but not as pushrods? The valve has a much harder life than a pushrod. It also has much smaller area to take the same load as a pushrod. Think how stiff the material must be around the retainer to not deform and how small it is there. It's stiff enough.
Last edited by good2go; 02-07-2013 at 09:05 AM.
02-07-2013, 09:17 AM
#39
For 6,800 RPM I would not waste your money. Now if you were building a road race car that was going to be seeing 8K regularly, then yes it would be worth it. In your case, it's not.