MAST Black Label Head Failure...$20K motor destroyed. Need Help.
02-09-2018, 02:31 PM
#41
I am not trying to put you or anyone else off. There are a number of questions being asked, that I don't have the answers to. I am getting more than expected input and trying to wade thru what is good and useful and what is opinion and speculation. Therefore, I don't want to put the wrong info out there. It doesn't help me, LS1Tech community or the people on the other side of this transaction. Again, I am thankful to those that have reached out and referred me to others that can point me in the right direction. I will update things as I learn them, but again dont want to spread inuendo or conjecture...helps no one. I will provide info that I KNOW to be accurate.
Re: your questions...I don't know have info re: valve guide materials. I will have to ask my engine builder.
02-09-2018, 03:47 PM
#43
I'm sorry to hear that your engine build had an issue. I'm going through a similar process having my new ERL 416 repaired thanks to some car thieves. The situation sucks and I feel your pain.
One of my friends that used to build NASCAR engines, told me NEVER accept any suppliers word that a critical engine part is correct. In short he said every set of new ready to bolt on heads need to be checked by a qualified installer. So basically every cylinder heads needs to come apart and be checked in detail to confirm the correct parts are in it and set up correctly. Even the best valve manufacturer sometimes has a valve that has the stem slight out of spec and is hair to thick which can cause the valve to bind with disastrous results.
I've had several sets of heads and half of them had issues from top notch shops.
2002 - TEA S2 5.3's - full of metal shavings, my friend caught the issue, cleaned heads no issues for 130,000 + miles,
2003 - JPR Stage 1 LS6 heads - no port work done. Was a stock set of heads with stock valves. He mic'd the heads. Out right fraud. Thankfully JPR folded.
2003 TEA S2.5 LS6 Judson's (TEA ported they JRP's for me) - perfect out of the box, no issues
2007 - Doug Herbert, Dart Pro1's for SBC , valve seals were damaged, brand new heads out of the box. Easy fix before they went on the motor.
2016 - LPE / GMPP heads used - heads decked more than advertised by seller, ports bigger etc
2016 - Wegner Nascar LS6/243/799 heads used - had replacement valve, still need to tear down to see if there are other issues.
2017 Reher-Morrison LS3 CNC'd - Found one valve seal that was cut, Reher sent me a new seal, otherwise perfect.
Out of seven sets of heads I've bought only one set was actually ready to go out of the box.
Check everything or find an expert that can help you check
It saves head aches. Even outstanding vendors can have a little issue occasionally.
One of my friends that used to build NASCAR engines, told me NEVER accept any suppliers word that a critical engine part is correct. In short he said every set of new ready to bolt on heads need to be checked by a qualified installer. So basically every cylinder heads needs to come apart and be checked in detail to confirm the correct parts are in it and set up correctly. Even the best valve manufacturer sometimes has a valve that has the stem slight out of spec and is hair to thick which can cause the valve to bind with disastrous results.
I've had several sets of heads and half of them had issues from top notch shops.
2002 - TEA S2 5.3's - full of metal shavings, my friend caught the issue, cleaned heads no issues for 130,000 + miles,
2003 - JPR Stage 1 LS6 heads - no port work done. Was a stock set of heads with stock valves. He mic'd the heads. Out right fraud. Thankfully JPR folded.
2003 TEA S2.5 LS6 Judson's (TEA ported they JRP's for me) - perfect out of the box, no issues
2007 - Doug Herbert, Dart Pro1's for SBC , valve seals were damaged, brand new heads out of the box. Easy fix before they went on the motor.
2016 - LPE / GMPP heads used - heads decked more than advertised by seller, ports bigger etc
2016 - Wegner Nascar LS6/243/799 heads used - had replacement valve, still need to tear down to see if there are other issues.
2017 Reher-Morrison LS3 CNC'd - Found one valve seal that was cut, Reher sent me a new seal, otherwise perfect.
Out of seven sets of heads I've bought only one set was actually ready to go out of the box.
Check everything or find an expert that can help you check
It saves head aches. Even outstanding vendors can have a little issue occasionally.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 02-09-2018 at 04:30 PM.
02-09-2018, 07:17 PM
#44
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
I'm sorry to hear that your engine build had an issue. I'm going through a similar process having my new ERL 416 repaired thanks to some car thieves. The situation sucks and I feel your pain.
One of my friends that used to build NASCAR engines, told me NEVER accept any suppliers word that a critical engine part is correct. In short he said every set of new ready to bolt on heads need to be checked by a qualified installer. So basically every cylinder heads needs to come apart and be checked in detail to confirm the correct parts are in it and set up correctly. Even the best valve manufacturer sometimes has a valve that has the stem slight out of spec and is hair to thick which can cause the valve to bind with disastrous results.
I've had several sets of heads and half of them had issues from top notch shops.
2002 - TEA S2 5.3's - full of metal shavings, my friend caught the issue, cleaned heads no issues for 130,000 + miles,
2003 - JPR Stage 1 LS6 heads - no port work done. Was a stock set of heads with stock valves. He mic'd the heads. Out right fraud. Thankfully JPR folded.
2003 TEA S2.5 LS6 Judson's (TEA ported they JRP's for me) - perfect out of the box, no issues
2007 - Doug Herbert, Dart Pro1's for SBC , valve seals were damaged, brand new heads out of the box. Easy fix before they went on the motor.
2016 - LPE / GMPP heads used - heads decked more than advertised by seller, ports bigger etc
2016 - Wegner Nascar LS6/243/799 heads used - had replacement valve, still need to tear down to see if there are other issues.
2017 Reher-Morrison LS3 CNC'd - Found one valve seal that was cut, Reher sent me a new seal, otherwise perfect.
Out of seven sets of heads I've bought only one set was actually ready to go out of the box.
Check everything or find an expert that can help you check
It saves head aches. Even outstanding vendors can have a little issue occasionally.
One of my friends that used to build NASCAR engines, told me NEVER accept any suppliers word that a critical engine part is correct. In short he said every set of new ready to bolt on heads need to be checked by a qualified installer. So basically every cylinder heads needs to come apart and be checked in detail to confirm the correct parts are in it and set up correctly. Even the best valve manufacturer sometimes has a valve that has the stem slight out of spec and is hair to thick which can cause the valve to bind with disastrous results.
I've had several sets of heads and half of them had issues from top notch shops.
2002 - TEA S2 5.3's - full of metal shavings, my friend caught the issue, cleaned heads no issues for 130,000 + miles,
2003 - JPR Stage 1 LS6 heads - no port work done. Was a stock set of heads with stock valves. He mic'd the heads. Out right fraud. Thankfully JPR folded.
2003 TEA S2.5 LS6 Judson's (TEA ported they JRP's for me) - perfect out of the box, no issues
2007 - Doug Herbert, Dart Pro1's for SBC , valve seals were damaged, brand new heads out of the box. Easy fix before they went on the motor.
2016 - LPE / GMPP heads used - heads decked more than advertised by seller, ports bigger etc
2016 - Wegner Nascar LS6/243/799 heads used - had replacement valve, still need to tear down to see if there are other issues.
2017 Reher-Morrison LS3 CNC'd - Found one valve seal that was cut, Reher sent me a new seal, otherwise perfect.
Out of seven sets of heads I've bought only one set was actually ready to go out of the box.
Check everything or find an expert that can help you check
It saves head aches. Even outstanding vendors can have a little issue occasionally.
My recent 434 build, has a complete Mamo top end...which has TrickFlow exhaust valves by the way. I took them apart to inspect. I took Tony’s ported oil pump apart to inspect. I’m sure that Tony would do the same.
In this game, trust no one.
02-10-2018, 12:09 AM
#45
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I have not read the entire thread or even the whole first post BUT I have Mast heads and consider the springs that come with those heads the best in the market, my 13 to one street 440 ci ls7 with llsr cam see 7300 shifts points every where year in & out.
People running 8k plus rpms with their 440 lbs open pressure springs with out valve float or problems of any kind.
I for one buy the entire assemble set of heads straight from Mast take them apart and finish the ports my way but never change any of their parts cause I know those heads are done rite.
People running 8k plus rpms with their 440 lbs open pressure springs with out valve float or problems of any kind.
I for one buy the entire assemble set of heads straight from Mast take them apart and finish the ports my way but never change any of their parts cause I know those heads are done rite.
02-10-2018, 09:54 AM
#47
IMO parts don't just break....people have been turbo charging engines with all kinds of lesser quality parts over the years and it seems to me that the oldest crappiest most worn out **** always seems to live....ironic or is there something to that......?????
I believe some good TECH failure analysis has come to light here....
Lance asking about the valve guide material got me to thinking about some of the issues similar to yours that I've seen over the past 30 years.....
Assuming that piston to valve clearance was checked and with notched pistons; even over revving or floating shouldn't have been an issue....set that... aside.
So one of MY goofy engineering schemes when building stock car engines, most of which require crappy stock iron heads, limited compression, and restricted carburetion is to put NEW valves (of any quality) into WORN used guides....as well as NO SEALS on the exhaust side. Open headers and 500 2BBL restriction plus the constant on/off gas racing causes the EGT(exhaust Gas Temp) to sky rocket.....no seal on the EX gives additional oiling which no harm blowing it out the port; and on the intake side the added valve heat(expansion) will NOT bind, gall, or stick in the worn guide
When I build aluminum headed engines with bronze guides I will put a used worn stem reground valve (of any quality) in for that added clearance
Back in the mid nineties I had a street engine that just wacked a few valves and died after a couple hundred miles and a few WOT blasts....
Turns out the new guides AND new valves were too tight; one intake and two exhausts galled then stuck open; add in that the PC seals with the ring are super tight and WIPE the oil off the valve that is needed in the guides....needed some custom honing to fix properly
I understand these engines are NOT yours.....BUT the basic principals/physics DO APPLY......valve material is hard AND dense and will expand when heated....remember room temperature LOOSE is not as present when operating temp is high
Shop I also worked at would remove the wire from the top of the PC seals and even pull a triangulated file through them to cut oiling grooves for better lubrication....on iron and bronze guides
I'm thinking LANCE could be right on here with questioning your guide material......bronze has terrific lubricity properties and well as expansion characteristics; however even the BEST brand NEW valves will by design be TIGHT and require custom honing...more clearance is better than less with a turbo charged application
Best of luck to you repairing and moving forward with your project !!!!
I believe some good TECH failure analysis has come to light here....
Lance asking about the valve guide material got me to thinking about some of the issues similar to yours that I've seen over the past 30 years.....
Assuming that piston to valve clearance was checked and with notched pistons; even over revving or floating shouldn't have been an issue....set that... aside.
So one of MY goofy engineering schemes when building stock car engines, most of which require crappy stock iron heads, limited compression, and restricted carburetion is to put NEW valves (of any quality) into WORN used guides....as well as NO SEALS on the exhaust side. Open headers and 500 2BBL restriction plus the constant on/off gas racing causes the EGT(exhaust Gas Temp) to sky rocket.....no seal on the EX gives additional oiling which no harm blowing it out the port; and on the intake side the added valve heat(expansion) will NOT bind, gall, or stick in the worn guide
When I build aluminum headed engines with bronze guides I will put a used worn stem reground valve (of any quality) in for that added clearance
Back in the mid nineties I had a street engine that just wacked a few valves and died after a couple hundred miles and a few WOT blasts....
Turns out the new guides AND new valves were too tight; one intake and two exhausts galled then stuck open; add in that the PC seals with the ring are super tight and WIPE the oil off the valve that is needed in the guides....needed some custom honing to fix properly
I understand these engines are NOT yours.....BUT the basic principals/physics DO APPLY......valve material is hard AND dense and will expand when heated....remember room temperature LOOSE is not as present when operating temp is high
Shop I also worked at would remove the wire from the top of the PC seals and even pull a triangulated file through them to cut oiling grooves for better lubrication....on iron and bronze guides
I'm thinking LANCE could be right on here with questioning your guide material......bronze has terrific lubricity properties and well as expansion characteristics; however even the BEST brand NEW valves will by design be TIGHT and require custom honing...more clearance is better than less with a turbo charged application
Best of luck to you repairing and moving forward with your project !!!!
02-10-2018, 10:05 AM
#48
TECH Senior Member
The only thing about bronze guides is you have to use roller-tip rockers to prevent side-loading the valve. Learned that from AFR's catalog.
02-10-2018, 10:46 AM
#49
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
IMO parts don't just break....people have been turbo charging engines with all kinds of lesser quality parts over the years and it seems to me that the oldest crappiest most worn out **** always seems to live....ironic or is there something to that......?????
I believe some good TECH failure analysis has come to light here....
Lance asking about the valve guide material got me to thinking about some of the issues similar to yours that I've seen over the past 30 years.....
Assuming that piston to valve clearance was checked and with notched pistons; even over revving or floating shouldn't have been an issue....set that... aside.
So one of MY goofy engineering schemes when building stock car engines, most of which require crappy stock iron heads, limited compression, and restricted carburetion is to put NEW valves (of any quality) into WORN used guides....as well as NO SEALS on the exhaust side. Open headers and 500 2BBL restriction plus the constant on/off gas racing causes the EGT(exhaust Gas Temp) to sky rocket.....no seal on the EX gives additional oiling which no harm blowing it out the port; and on the intake side the added valve heat(expansion) will NOT bind, gall, or stick in the worn guide
When I build aluminum headed engines with bronze guides I will put a used worn stem reground valve (of any quality) in for that added clearance
Back in the mid nineties I had a street engine that just wacked a few valves and died after a couple hundred miles and a few WOT blasts....
Turns out the new guides AND new valves were too tight; one intake and two exhausts galled then stuck open; add in that the PC seals with the ring are super tight and WIPE the oil off the valve that is needed in the guides....needed some custom honing to fix properly
I understand these engines are NOT yours.....BUT the basic principals/physics DO APPLY......valve material is hard AND dense and will expand when heated....remember room temperature LOOSE is not as present when operating temp is high
Shop I also worked at would remove the wire from the top of the PC seals and even pull a triangulated file through them to cut oiling grooves for better lubrication....on iron and bronze guides
I'm thinking LANCE could be right on here with questioning your guide material......bronze has terrific lubricity properties and well as expansion characteristics; however even the BEST brand NEW valves will by design be TIGHT and require custom honing...more clearance is better than less with a turbo charged application
Best of luck to you repairing and moving forward with your project !!!!
I believe some good TECH failure analysis has come to light here....
Lance asking about the valve guide material got me to thinking about some of the issues similar to yours that I've seen over the past 30 years.....
Assuming that piston to valve clearance was checked and with notched pistons; even over revving or floating shouldn't have been an issue....set that... aside.
So one of MY goofy engineering schemes when building stock car engines, most of which require crappy stock iron heads, limited compression, and restricted carburetion is to put NEW valves (of any quality) into WORN used guides....as well as NO SEALS on the exhaust side. Open headers and 500 2BBL restriction plus the constant on/off gas racing causes the EGT(exhaust Gas Temp) to sky rocket.....no seal on the EX gives additional oiling which no harm blowing it out the port; and on the intake side the added valve heat(expansion) will NOT bind, gall, or stick in the worn guide
When I build aluminum headed engines with bronze guides I will put a used worn stem reground valve (of any quality) in for that added clearance
Back in the mid nineties I had a street engine that just wacked a few valves and died after a couple hundred miles and a few WOT blasts....
Turns out the new guides AND new valves were too tight; one intake and two exhausts galled then stuck open; add in that the PC seals with the ring are super tight and WIPE the oil off the valve that is needed in the guides....needed some custom honing to fix properly
I understand these engines are NOT yours.....BUT the basic principals/physics DO APPLY......valve material is hard AND dense and will expand when heated....remember room temperature LOOSE is not as present when operating temp is high
Shop I also worked at would remove the wire from the top of the PC seals and even pull a triangulated file through them to cut oiling grooves for better lubrication....on iron and bronze guides
I'm thinking LANCE could be right on here with questioning your guide material......bronze has terrific lubricity properties and well as expansion characteristics; however even the BEST brand NEW valves will by design be TIGHT and require custom honing...more clearance is better than less with a turbo charged application
Best of luck to you repairing and moving forward with your project !!!!
I’m just trying to convince myself that a shop like Mast could miss properly honing their guides...but then again, I’d be the guy to doubt them, and take the heads apart to check. I speak to Damon at Mast regularly with tech questions about my electronics, and I can attest to you all, that he’s a sharp guy. But things happen, and obviously here, something went south.
02-10-2018, 10:58 AM
#50
FormerVendor
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Valve Guide Material HI All, again thanks for the kind words.
My DATA is from customers.
One such is Dave Hartz, Water Thunder, with 400+ Air Boat engine in a years time.
The SAME PROBLEM was reported, NOT a MAST Head but another custom head manufacturer.
The manufactured CHANGED their guide supplier to REDUCE COSTS.
He "dropped" valves heads in THREE engines with short time use, A FULL WARRANTY was provided, NO QUESTIONS.
The OP COULD POST his repair invoice AND if ALL GUIDES were replaced WE would have the answer !
THIS would also state the cause, who is liable !
A picture of the Valve Stem would be a great help ?
Lance
My DATA is from customers.
One such is Dave Hartz, Water Thunder, with 400+ Air Boat engine in a years time.
The SAME PROBLEM was reported, NOT a MAST Head but another custom head manufacturer.
The manufactured CHANGED their guide supplier to REDUCE COSTS.
He "dropped" valves heads in THREE engines with short time use, A FULL WARRANTY was provided, NO QUESTIONS.
The OP COULD POST his repair invoice AND if ALL GUIDES were replaced WE would have the answer !
THIS would also state the cause, who is liable !
A picture of the Valve Stem would be a great help ?
Lance
02-10-2018, 11:00 AM
#51
TECH Senior Member
Good thinking Lance!
02-11-2018, 10:39 AM
#53
02-11-2018, 07:32 PM
#56
TECH Senior Member
02-13-2018, 11:01 AM
#58
FormerVendor
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Valve Guide Material Hi All, AS WE KNOW, a "loose" guide WILL cause the valve to seat at MANY different angles.
This effect WILL cause the Valve Head to bend "work" the metal in the Valve Stem.
The OP has posted little of the ASKED FOR additional information.
THIS THREAD has GREAT MERIT, good for a LS-1 Tech member read.
MY Valve Guide replacement material choice IS CAST STEEL, a German Made guide # C 3053H. The "H" is the heat treat, induction hardened.
My "street" information is that Mast has used SI guides, not a top grade manufacturer.
I/we have no information provided to know if this SI guide was fitted, the material, the stem pictures requested, the questions left unanswered by the OP>
The LS-1 Tech SITE can be used to post standards for Valve Guides ?
Lance
This effect WILL cause the Valve Head to bend "work" the metal in the Valve Stem.
The OP has posted little of the ASKED FOR additional information.
THIS THREAD has GREAT MERIT, good for a LS-1 Tech member read.
MY Valve Guide replacement material choice IS CAST STEEL, a German Made guide # C 3053H. The "H" is the heat treat, induction hardened.
My "street" information is that Mast has used SI guides, not a top grade manufacturer.
I/we have no information provided to know if this SI guide was fitted, the material, the stem pictures requested, the questions left unanswered by the OP>
The LS-1 Tech SITE can be used to post standards for Valve Guides ?
Lance
02-13-2018, 01:11 PM
#59
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Hi All, AS WE KNOW, a "loose" guide WILL cause the valve to seat at MANY different angles.
This effect WILL cause the Valve Head to bend "work" the metal in the Valve Stem.
The OP has posted little of the ASKED FOR additional information.
THIS THREAD has GREAT MERIT, good for a LS-1 Tech member read.
MY Valve Guide replacement material choice IS CAST STEEL, a German Made guide # C 3053H. The "H" is the heat treat, induction hardened.
My "street" information is that Mast has used SI guides, not a top grade manufacturer.
I/we have no information provided to know if this SI guide was fitted, the material, the stem pictures requested, the questions left unanswered by the OP>
The LS-1 Tech SITE can be used to post standards for Valve Guides ?
Lance
This effect WILL cause the Valve Head to bend "work" the metal in the Valve Stem.
The OP has posted little of the ASKED FOR additional information.
THIS THREAD has GREAT MERIT, good for a LS-1 Tech member read.
MY Valve Guide replacement material choice IS CAST STEEL, a German Made guide # C 3053H. The "H" is the heat treat, induction hardened.
My "street" information is that Mast has used SI guides, not a top grade manufacturer.
I/we have no information provided to know if this SI guide was fitted, the material, the stem pictures requested, the questions left unanswered by the OP>
The LS-1 Tech SITE can be used to post standards for Valve Guides ?
Lance
02-13-2018, 01:56 PM
#60
TECH Enthusiast
One time I had a shop assemble a bottom end for me
Because they did it so cheap. After 15 or so miles a rod nut literally fell off and grenaded the entire engine. Block, Cam, everything. Asked for some help and they said nope. Asked about ordering a crate engine and they wanted 15% just to handle it. **** that place. Never went back
Because they did it so cheap. After 15 or so miles a rod nut literally fell off and grenaded the entire engine. Block, Cam, everything. Asked for some help and they said nope. Asked about ordering a crate engine and they wanted 15% just to handle it. **** that place. Never went back
Moral of the story...check everything. Take everything apart. Not criticizing the OP.
I hope you did hammer....