heads for 4.125 bore and help me choose what parts
08-17-2018, 03:32 PM
#81
It has crossed my mind, but as of now I already have the complete shortblock, LS3 that is, all new. If I should go LS7 I would need pretty much a new shortblock and being a flat plane I would also need a new cam. (Firing order)
08-17-2018, 03:37 PM
#82
10 Second Club
done properly you could get 530 rwhp imo
08-19-2018, 10:25 AM
#83
@G Atsma : Horace AND Mast? The guy's name is Horace Mast...
Same 427 is used in testing ,same website different testing for those who would like to see the difference in the factory Ls7 intake vs …….Not bad for a cheap factory intake with a 90mm TB considering cost, if you've got it already no cost @ all.
Brian Tooley Racing Stage IV LS7 cam, COMP Cams hydraulic roller lifters. TFS Gen X 260 LS7 heads ARP head studs and Fel Pro MLS head gaskets. Moroso stepped up with a complete (wet sump) oiling system full of Lucas 5W-20, and ATI dialed in the rotating assembly with a Super Damper. Finishing touches included a set of FAST injectors, 1 7/8-inch Hooker headers, and a Meziere electric water pump.
The *factory LS7 intake fed by a *90mm Holley throttle body produced peak numbers of 641 hp and 571 lb-ft of torque looks to be around 5100 rpm. The long-runner design, torque production exceeded 550 lb-ft from 4,400 rpm to 6,000 rpm and more than 500 lb-ft from 3,800 rpm to 6,700 rpm.
https://www.powerperformancenews.com...st-lsx-intake/
TFS head test: BTR LS7 STAGE IV CAM : Cam specs are 247/258 112+3 over 600 lift
TFS 245: 102mm FAST LSXR intake with matching 102mm Big Mouth throttle body. 1.7 rocker ratio
The 245-headed 427 produced peak numbers of 648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
LS7: MSD Atomic intake and 105mm Holley throttle body. 1.8 rocker arm ratio
After dialing in the air/fuel and timing, the LS7-headed 427 produced peak numbers of 658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
https://www.powerperformancenews.com...ls7-head-test/
Last edited by Patron; 08-19-2018 at 10:30 AM.
08-19-2018, 07:21 PM
#85
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Cool article, but same old thing. The 245 were falling. The 260 were still at peak at 7k rpm. If they ran the engine out to 7500, that past power peak would show far better for the 260 heads.
I know not everybody revs theirs out, but if you are going to set it up with a powerband like that, why not take advantage, shift at 7600, land at 5100 right on peak torque and ride that curve?
I would bet you both engines properly driven and shifted optimally the 260 headed engine wins at the track due to power past peak.
I know not everybody revs theirs out, but if you are going to set it up with a powerband like that, why not take advantage, shift at 7600, land at 5100 right on peak torque and ride that curve?
I would bet you both engines properly driven and shifted optimally the 260 headed engine wins at the track due to power past peak.
08-19-2018, 08:07 PM
#87
TECH Veteran
I kinda disagree... I've seen similar track times out of both LS7 heads and cathedrals. I'll be at LS fest in a couple weeks and I will be watching closely to what's what.
08-19-2018, 08:57 PM
#89
TECH Veteran
you talk too much
08-19-2018, 10:59 PM
#91
Funny thing about all of this is add a little duration to the TFS 245 and it would loss some Tq but gain some Hp. Sounds like we've just matched the Ls7's. Loss some duration with the Ls7 and it would loss some Hp but gain some Tq. Oh did we just match the the 245's with Ls7 heads. Sure did! I think it doesn't matter if the Ls7's have more hp past peak such as the case here it may want or need a 4.56 gear to keep it in it's sweet spot. While the 245's with more Tq may run a 4.30 gear. If both use the same trans with a 5000 stall and the same car what's the diff. in ET of either? Damn near the same I'd bet, we've just adjusted the gear to match where the powers made. The same can be done with Ls3/Ls7 or Cathedral heads. The key here is all that's needed is a Baseline to start from and I or anybody can adjust to make more Hp or Tq with either head using camming. To damn simple to cheat we just need a baseline. If anything which casting to use would require more thought. Also factoring in the Ls3 intake choices Vs the others.
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
08-20-2018, 04:37 AM
#92
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I get what you saying patron, and you right. Add duration to the 245, cut duration on the 260, etc. in the end, as configured, the 245 heads were done or close to it, and the 260 heads were still on the plateau. Quick math...
596 x 4.30 = 2560 lbs torque not factoring in the transmission gear.
587 x 4.56 = 2670 lbs torque not factoring in the transmission gear.
If you look at first and second gear, that advantage grows to 300 lbs.
So given that, I would choose the 260 heads and the 4.56 gear and shift around 8k. But that is where driver comes into play. Get some yo yo shifting at 6800 driving those motors, and yeah the two will run similar. But shift the 245 headed motor at say 7300 and shift the 260 headed motor at 8k. Use the hearing Patron described, I put money on the 260 heads.
But that is all just bench racing, and my bench has yet to make it down the track. Do grains of salt considered lol.
596 x 4.30 = 2560 lbs torque not factoring in the transmission gear.
587 x 4.56 = 2670 lbs torque not factoring in the transmission gear.
If you look at first and second gear, that advantage grows to 300 lbs.
So given that, I would choose the 260 heads and the 4.56 gear and shift around 8k. But that is where driver comes into play. Get some yo yo shifting at 6800 driving those motors, and yeah the two will run similar. But shift the 245 headed motor at say 7300 and shift the 260 headed motor at 8k. Use the hearing Patron described, I put money on the 260 heads.
But that is all just bench racing, and my bench has yet to make it down the track. Do grains of salt considered lol.
08-20-2018, 05:42 AM
#93
TECH Veteran
08-20-2018, 08:06 AM
#94
Correct Darth as it stands I've seen and read about Cathedrals running 8's and also Ls3's with nothing more than 402 thru 416's. My point is that if done properly and a goal is set, we know what we're trying to match or beat. Given one combo makes or does one thing and we know what the build consists of, it's easy to build something competitive or faster. Avg Hp and Tq throughout the Rpm range win's races with correct gearing. You can get any one of the good heads to make hp/tq just some peak higher while others create more down low as you said Darth, gear the car correctly and enjoy. It all comes down to a person's goal and the heads the person has or will be purchasing. If I had a good cathedral head the only thing bad is the limited carb style intake choices. Other than getting the CSA right to match rpm,weight, etc........ I'd roll with it. I would like to see how the TFS ls7's does against the Mast Ls7's or TFS ls3's against AFR or Mast Ls3's as it stands I've seen nothing out of the box out do Mast. Brodix ,PRC & others got Whooped in the Ls7 heads comparison and the cathedral test Mast Ls3's were only bettered by 1 set of cheap heads that of Pro Comp @ peak HP with all being straight out of the box........ I'm a ProComp guy BTW... LMAO! I'd pick a goal 1st and then see if my budget fits my goal, that would dictate which heads I'd choose.
Last edited by Patron; 08-20-2018 at 08:16 AM.
08-20-2018, 01:43 PM
#96
Yeah I know Mr. Coleman and have spoken with him several times. The point some are missing is that out the box is Cool for the avg guy. Yet when being competitive the same out of the box aftermarket heads.....Needs to be worked for a given combination. There is no 1 size fits all. I know of several guys on here and other forums that use factory castings because of cost, around $5k just to switch over to the aftermarket with the same work done. The same TFS test with the 245's and 260's didn't really out do a Ls2 427 with factory WCCH Ls3 heads. You can make power if you know what your doing or know what your asking 4. So funny! If you've got the coin fine, if not don't trip the aftemarket really hasn't done anything that a factory casting Has not done......N/a!
427 factory Ls3 heads ported by WCCH
656 hp@ 6300 and 600 + ft lbs of tq at around 5000 rpm
TFS: 245's & 260's
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
427 factory Ls3 heads ported by WCCH
656 hp@ 6300 and 600 + ft lbs of tq at around 5000 rpm
TFS: 245's & 260's
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
08-20-2018, 03:59 PM
#97
TECH Veteran
you the devil
08-20-2018, 05:39 PM
#98
TECH Veteran
Yeah I know Mr. Coleman and have spoken with him several times. The point some are missing is that out the box is Cool for the avg guy. Yet when being competitive the same out of the box aftermarket heads.....Needs to be worked for a given combination. There is no 1 size fits all. I know of several guys on here and other forums that use factory castings because of cost, around $5k just to switch over to the aftermarket with the same work done. The same TFS test with the 245's and 260's didn't really out do a Ls2 427 with factory WCCH Ls3 heads. You can make power if you know what your doing or know what your asking 4. So funny! If you've got the coin fine, if not don't trip the aftemarket really hasn't done anything that a factory casting Has not done......N/a!
427 factory Ls3 heads ported by WCCH
656 hp@ 6300 and 600 + ft lbs of tq at around 5000 rpm
TFS: 245's & 260's
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
427 factory Ls3 heads ported by WCCH
656 hp@ 6300 and 600 + ft lbs of tq at around 5000 rpm
TFS: 245's & 260's
648 hp at 6,400 rpm and 596 lb-ft of torque at 5,100 rpm
658 hp at 6,600 rpm and 587 lb-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm.
08-20-2018, 07:42 PM
#99
I posted this already........WKMCD and Tim* 87Hatchback are the reason I liked having factory Ls3 heads ported. You can make anything work if you know. Any head! Will buying a better head make more Hp sure but that depends on your pocket book.
Short read: WKMCD
https://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-cla...ale-cheap.html
Long read:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...b-c-d-e-f.html
414 with factory cathedral heads flowing 350 cfm
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...results-2.html
Oldie but Goodie.
408 LS1 11.4.1 Compression HK Racing Engines
Greg Good Stage MEGA HP LS6 Heads 2.10 Valves
Custom Solid Roller Camshaft (Specs per Greg Good) around 250/260
Jessel J2k Rockers
Greg Good Ported FAST 90mm ^This would now be a 105mm TB more Hp
Kooks 1 7/8 to 2" Headers
3" X-pipe
Textraila Exo Skel Dual Disc Clutch
Six Speeds Inc Stage 3 T-56 ( You da man Joe!)
DTE Stage 3 4.10 Rear End
19" HRE Wheels
MAFless Tune
This dyno is through open x-pipe. Through a B&B Triflow Catback it makes 578 RWHP!
601 RWHP 513 RWTQ SAE
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-601-rwhp.html
Short read: WKMCD
https://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-cla...ale-cheap.html
Long read:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...b-c-d-e-f.html
414 with factory cathedral heads flowing 350 cfm
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...results-2.html
Oldie but Goodie.
408 LS1 11.4.1 Compression HK Racing Engines
Greg Good Stage MEGA HP LS6 Heads 2.10 Valves
Custom Solid Roller Camshaft (Specs per Greg Good) around 250/260
Jessel J2k Rockers
Greg Good Ported FAST 90mm ^This would now be a 105mm TB more Hp
Kooks 1 7/8 to 2" Headers
3" X-pipe
Textraila Exo Skel Dual Disc Clutch
Six Speeds Inc Stage 3 T-56 ( You da man Joe!)
DTE Stage 3 4.10 Rear End
19" HRE Wheels
MAFless Tune
This dyno is through open x-pipe. Through a B&B Triflow Catback it makes 578 RWHP!
601 RWHP 513 RWTQ SAE
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-601-rwhp.html
08-21-2018, 03:26 PM
#100
Old article I have bookmarked from 2010. Even factory stuff can make hp. There are many ways to skin a cat.
Go down a bit and you can see the dyno comparison from 2000 to 7100 rpm.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp...te-model-cars/
Mast Motorsports LS7 Heads
To find out, we baseline-tested one of Mast’s 427ci LS7 crate motors on its SuperFlow 902 dyno. The combo features a factory standard-bore LS7 block, a Callies crank and rods, Mahle 11.4:1 pistons, a custom 246/260-at-0.050 hydraulic roller cam with 0.659/0.666-inch lift, factory LS7 heads, and a stock LS7 intake manifold. With the stock heads, the 427 produced 662 hp at 6,900 rpm and 560 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm. With no changes to the motor except swapping out the stock LS7 heads for the Mast heads, the motor put out 686 hp at 6,900 rpm and 589 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm. Just as impressive as the peak gains is the fact that the Mast heads picked up power and torque throughout the entire power curve. This is exactly what you’d expect, considering the increased airflow of the Mast heads through ports that are only a hair larger than the stock LS7 castings. Throw some more ci and a bigger cam at these heads, and they will easily support 750-plus horsepower without breaking a sweat. For heads that perform just as well on the dyno as they do on paper, we give the Mast LS7 cylinder heads two big thumbs up. -Stephen Kim
From 2010 *Price: $3,644.00 for a pair of fully assembled heads
To find out, we baseline-tested one of Mast’s 427ci LS7 crate motors on its SuperFlow 902 dyno. The combo features a factory standard-bore LS7 block, a Callies crank and rods, Mahle 11.4:1 pistons, a custom 246/260-at-0.050 hydraulic roller cam with 0.659/0.666-inch lift, factory LS7 heads, and a stock LS7 intake manifold. With the stock heads, the 427 produced 662 hp at 6,900 rpm and 560 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm. With no changes to the motor except swapping out the stock LS7 heads for the Mast heads, the motor put out 686 hp at 6,900 rpm and 589 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm. Just as impressive as the peak gains is the fact that the Mast heads picked up power and torque throughout the entire power curve. This is exactly what you’d expect, considering the increased airflow of the Mast heads through ports that are only a hair larger than the stock LS7 castings. Throw some more ci and a bigger cam at these heads, and they will easily support 750-plus horsepower without breaking a sweat. For heads that perform just as well on the dyno as they do on paper, we give the Mast LS7 cylinder heads two big thumbs up. -Stephen Kim
From 2010 *Price: $3,644.00 for a pair of fully assembled heads
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp...te-model-cars/
Last edited by Patron; 08-21-2018 at 03:33 PM.