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I'm using their ST2116LSR lifter and to be honest wish I hadn't. You have to get push rods absolutely spot on, which I'm confident I did, but I had to remeasure all of them a few times. Johnson themselves even said the normal 2116LSR will go to 8k RPM easily and very few people really need the ST version. I would call them and see if you really need ST because it add complications you may not need to deal with.
The 2110's will go to 8000 easily, been doing so for years.
yes my box says .030 preload plus or minus .005 im assuming thats cold preload, but thats what im confused about, how are you getting all same length for intake and exhaust lengths on a lifter with tighter preload tolerances.....i came up with about 7 different orders lengths but i also have offset rockers. but even the straight exhaust i think had 4 different lengths. maybe im measuring wrong but the range between the intake is believe was .009 between long and short and the exhaust was like .024
yes my box says .030 preload plus or minus .005 im assuming thats cold preload, but thats what im confused about, how are you getting all same length for intake and exhaust lengths on a lifter with tighter preload tolerances.....i came up with about 7 different orders lengths but i also have offset rockers. but even the straight exhaust i think had 4 different lengths. maybe im measuring wrong but the range between the intake is believe was .009 between long and short and the exhaust was like .024
This is what I tend to get. 020-030 variance. The tolerance on the manufacture of the rods is +-003. So I end up with something like 7 at one length, 5 at another, 3 at another, and one bastard length.
I do think I have a potential issue. When we conferenced my builder with Al @ Manton, we told Al we were using feeler gauges on top of the valve tip to get the final measurement on the length and Al didn't complain about that on the phone. Now, when I submitted the measurements to Al yesterday showing the feeler gauge thicknesses (without accounting for the rocker ratio), Al was worried about the rocker ratio. The builder was getting the adjustable pushrod very close to zero lash, then measuring the slack between the valve tip and the rocker with a feeler gauge. Then we were adding the feeler gauge thickness to the length of the adj PR to get the overall length. But because of that ratio, those numbers are off, I'm not sure whether by a significant amount. The lever on the pushrod side is longer, so I'd guess that we'd have to multiply the feeler gauge thickness by the rocker ratio, and add that number to the overall length? Something like 7.485+(0.020*1.7) = 7.519 vs 7.485+.020 = 7.505.
if I use the generic 1.70 ratio, the lengths change by .0035 to .028 longer, and if I use the 1.72 ratio advertised by Texas Speed, the lengths change by .0036 to .0288. Looks like I need to get hold of Al again. If they've already started the order, hopefully the differences aren't critical. Using the 1.72 ratio on the chart, the the distribution of the lengths are within 30 thousandths.
Last edited by JimMueller; 04-06-2019 at 08:17 AM.
Because of Al's concerns with the feeler, I manually checked every pushrod length this weekend. A bit of hassle to get the pushrod into the lifter seat sometimes, but it took me about 5-6 hours with breaks. Here are the differences in length comparing valve to valve to what I ordered. We'll see what Al has to say on how this affects my order.
The new lengths with preload included were all within .020" except two outliers.
one thing to keep in mind, be sure the length checker that you are using has the same ends as the pushrods you are ordering or else they may come in longer or shorter.
i feel you on checking this and taking too long......im running yella terra rockers where they mount on a small shaft in pairs so i have 8 sets of 2. well im using rocker bolt turn method to measure and in order to get the closest to accurate turns with the ratchet they both need to be set at 0 lash. if i have one torqued the opposite one basically begins to stretch the bolt as soon as it bottoms out and basically loads the lifter without me really feeling it. tough to make sense, but yea. but wait, how can i get both lifters of that cylinder on the base circles to measure? well i had to use the cam gear timing dot and follow the firing order so that the piston was at TDC of firing stroke. so i would do one cylinder, rotate 1/8 turn and do the next in the order. anyway i first measured the way everyone says to, got weird numbers all over the place, switched to rocker bolt turn method, redid them all and the numbers got tighter but still seemed like they could be tighter. so i redid it again, being super super picky and got my spread tighter by about .003 and fixed one of my outliers so it was just a little heavier than the others and not out there in left field.
got the rods in, put them where they were supposed to be, redid the procedure for a 3rd time to double check because the rods were all ordered a little heavier by my guy due to the rod ends he uses, and sure enough a few were now not where i wanted them to be. swapped a few rods but keep in mind, i had to do double the work since i had to loosen intake rocker to do the exh on that cylinder, even if the intake was fine. couldn't figure it out why by looking at my measurements on the sheet. so guess what, we do it a 4th time, being super picky and careful, writing down the ratchet clock position on each rocker then using my sheet to determine where i could move things to make it work. that took like 2 hours right there because even tho on paper swapping 2 should make sense, when i checked them it didn't. but not trying to brag, but if my numbers are correct and rocker bolt turn didn't let me down, im at cold preload of between .038 and .047 on all mine, give or take id say .003 cause im not perfect. so after expansion of somewhere between .008 and .012 depending on where you read im right where i wan to be. i did have 1 come in at around .050 for some reason and another at .035 so one is heavier than they recommend but i think it will be fine, and the other is at the minimum or a hair under. just redo it and if you have to order rods, you might be able to use some in other places that you already have and may only need to order 7-10 rods. all the best. you made it this far, try to get it done right
Holy Fock, glad I didn't go with the YT's that Tony wanted me to order. I narrowed it down from 11 different lengths to 6. Al was happy with that, hope I have them by Friday at the latest.
Holy Fock, glad I didn't go with the YT's that Tony wanted me to order. I narrowed it down from 11 different lengths to 6. Al was happy with that, hope I have them by Friday at the latest.
nope you should have lol. will be worth it. my geometry is pretty good without shimming. im off center by a good bit, divide the valve in 1/4s and im a hair north of the bottom mount 1/4, so almost 3/4 of the way down the valve, but my wipe is probably about 1mm, maybe a hair more. stock rockers wouldn't have been like that
Oh the fun of doing this task and the YT rocker arm set up.... I forgot how many days I had wrapped up in it...
I was not happy with the wipe on my setup. I spent close to $100 on various washers to shim those stupid things and still could not achieve a proper thickness with out the need to stack 2 various washers to get a good pattern. Nothing I ordered was as advertised on the thickness. Also the thickness would vary a bit between washers. Once I achieved a good wipe, I ended up making a set of custom washers for my application. All 1 piece and consistent thickness. I kind of wish the stands were longer and needed to be cut down at the base or that you could order some longer stands once you figure out the length needed.
Once that was done then I could get an accurate Pushrod length measurements....
Oh the fun of doing this task and the YT rocker arm set up.... I forgot how many days I had wrapped up in it...
I was not happy with the wipe on my setup. I spent close to $100 on various washers to shim those stupid things and still could not achieve a proper thickness with out the need to stack 2 various washers to get a good pattern. Nothing I ordered was as advertised on the thickness. Also the thickness would vary a bit between washers. Once I achieved a good wipe, I ended up making a set of custom washers for my application. All 1 piece and consistent thickness. I kind of wish the stands were longer and needed to be cut down at the base or that you could order some longer stands once you figure out the length needed.
Once that was done then I could get an accurate Pushrod length measurements....
i actually was one of the guinea pigs for the rockers for tonys ls7 stuff. i get these rockers and he started talking about shims, im like what shims, turns out i got a new design that apparently YT half assed, and the new stands were a lot taller, eliminating the shims. but they never redesigned the rocker to accommodate this and now clearancing the covers is always needed instead of rarely needed with his stuff. i never really checked wipe before rod install, i know i know, but they were supposed to be pretty good out the box. i didn't have a solid lifter, now was i planning on removing the heads a second time so i said....."lets see how it looks when i get them." i checked a few knowing it would only be an ok estimate since i wasnt using a solid. this is the one i checked, the few others i checked were about the same position or a hair higher but a little wider. all in all it is acceptable for an amateur build.
There was a different thread where a few of us went back and forth over setting the rocker on the center of the valve at midlift vs doing what you did which is setting various shins and checking the wipe pattern.
My point in the other thread was that if you center the valve tip at mid lift you will always get a wider pattern and it will be biased to the intake side of the valve tip.
My point on that post was simply - doing the mid lift method will not get that nice tight wipe pattern.
So I've set these up a couple of times. And ordered a couple of sets of pushrods.
Use the Comp PR Checker and a digital gauge and report that total length to Manton. It comes out fine.
But to get zero lash... I don't bolt down the rocker being checked as it introduces preload in the bolt stretch. I simply turn the bolt over and push the trunnion into the pedestal and adjust the PR Checker until there is no more up and down chatter in the rocker.
Important Note: make sure you're on the base circle of the cam of whatever valve is being checked. Also, bolt down (fully) at least 2 other different rockers to set the pedestal on the head without movement. So it's a little bit of a tango to move back and forth. But that way you know the pedestal is set and the PR being checked has no hidden preload applied. It also allows for quick adjustment of the PR length checker since you just pull the rocker off and adjust (if you're not close).
Further, it helps to tape the PR Checker so it sticks at the length you measure.
But that's a pretty simple way to get length @ zero lash. Then add the preload of .035" to it and done. Move to the next one.
Even with the motor in the car, I can check all 16 in about 40 mins doing 2-3 measurements.
So I've set these up a couple of times. And ordered a couple of sets of pushrods.
Use the Comp PR Checker and a digital gauge and report that total length to Manton. It comes out fine.
But to get zero lash... I don't bolt down the rocker being checked as it introduces preload in the bolt stretch. I simply turn the bolt over and push the trunnion into the pedestal and adjust the PR Checker until there is no more up and down chatter in the rocker.
Important Note: make sure you're on the base circle of the cam of whatever valve is being checked. Also, bolt down (fully) at least 2 other different rockers to set the pedestal on the head without movement. So it's a little bit of a tango to move back and forth. But that way you know the pedestal is set and the PR being checked has no hidden preload applied. It also allows for quick adjustment of the PR length checker since you just pull the rocker off and adjust (if you're not close).
Further, it helps to tape the PR Checker so it sticks at the length you measure.
But that's a pretty simple way to get length @ zero lash. Then add the preload of .035" to it and done. Move to the next one.
Even with the motor in the car, I can check all 16 in about 40 mins doing 2-3 measurements.
Hope that helps.
This helps tremendously!!!
I fought this on the first one and said there has to be a better way. I used some blue masking tape and boom no more movement. Easy to remove too.
I measured the push rods the way Al at Manton wanted... if the lengths were wrong, I didn't want them blaming us for incorrect lengths *shrug*. We tore off a tiny bit of shop towel and wrapped it in the threads of the adjuster to help prevent unexpected length changes. I tried the old trick of using a rubber band wrapped around the long section of the adjuster but that was also frustrating. Ironically, I located my old adjuster with the knurled ends after using my new adjuster (without knurled ends) to complete this measurement.
The bottom end is now where I think I want it. Heads are still unported 66cc L92's, so plenty of room to grow into a more desirable N/A combination.
Motor is all sealed, hoping for first startup by noon today but I won't be able to get to the shop until tonight. Preload came in between 39 and 45 thousandths across the board. Al said the pushrods would be within .005 of the ordered length; all but one was within .003, one was off .005. I did the best I could given the advertised manufacturing tolerance.
04-05-2019, 12:49 PM
