Who's using Johnson ST lifters?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
Who's using Johnson ST lifters? I'm interested in using their ST2126LSR lifters in my 416 build. I seem to recall that these lifters need certain oil qualities due to clearances, certain viscosity, etc. Can someone chime in with those details?
* Recommended oil viscosity ranges for compatibility with internal lifter clearances. Can they be used with thicker oil such as desired for HPDE use (15-50)? If not, I need recommendations for a similar high quality lifter that does support oil that could be used on HPDE days.
* What is the desired lifter-to-bore clearance? Do they have the same OD as LS7 lifters? Does a change in lifter bore clearance affect oil pressure?
* Does the axle oiling feature affect oil pressure?
* Recommended oil viscosity ranges for compatibility with internal lifter clearances. Can they be used with thicker oil such as desired for HPDE use (15-50)? If not, I need recommendations for a similar high quality lifter that does support oil that could be used on HPDE days.
* What is the desired lifter-to-bore clearance? Do they have the same OD as LS7 lifters? Does a change in lifter bore clearance affect oil pressure?
* Does the axle oiling feature affect oil pressure?
Last edited by JimMueller; Mar 17, 2019 at 06:48 PM.
I seem to recall someone from Johnson say on FB that it's either LS30 or Driven oils that they don't like. I can't remember which.
I'd just call them in the morning. They've always answered what I've needed.
I'd just call them in the morning. They've always answered what I've needed.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
Spoke with Joe at Johnson Lifters.
* When setting pre-load in the engine, sometimes the oil pre-installed in the lifter from the factory will seep out, and it's important to have a thin oil in the engine during startup to ensure it gets into the lifters, something like a cheap 30 weight.
* They have people using 20W-50 oil with these lifters
* Axle oiling may reduce oil pressure by 3-5psi
* Excessive lifter bore clearance will also lower oil pressure
* Lifter diameter is .8418-.8422, desired lifter bore clearance is .0015-.0020
* Set pre-load, find 0 lash, then (for aluminum engines) add .0035 to pushrod length
* That should set preload to ~.0020 when hot
* Max valvespring pressures confirmed to work with the lifter is 185 seat, 530 open.
* When setting pre-load in the engine, sometimes the oil pre-installed in the lifter from the factory will seep out, and it's important to have a thin oil in the engine during startup to ensure it gets into the lifters, something like a cheap 30 weight.
* They have people using 20W-50 oil with these lifters
* Axle oiling may reduce oil pressure by 3-5psi
* Excessive lifter bore clearance will also lower oil pressure
* Lifter diameter is .8418-.8422, desired lifter bore clearance is .0015-.0020
* Set pre-load, find 0 lash, then (for aluminum engines) add .0035 to pushrod length
* That should set preload to ~.0020 when hot
* Max valvespring pressures confirmed to work with the lifter is 185 seat, 530 open.
I'm using their ST2116LSR lifter and to be honest wish I hadn't. You have to get push rods absolutely spot on, which I'm confident I did, but I had to remeasure all of them a few times. Johnson themselves even said the normal 2116LSR will go to 8k RPM easily and very few people really need the ST version. I would call them and see if you really need ST because it add complications you may not need to deal with.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
I'm using their ST2116LSR lifter and to be honest wish I hadn't. You have to get push rods absolutely spot on, which I'm confident I did, but I had to remeasure all of them a few times. Johnson themselves even said the normal 2116LSR will go to 8k RPM easily and very few people really need the ST version. I would call them and see if you really need ST because it add complications you may not need to deal with.
1) Use an adjustable push rod length checker to find zero lash at TDC on both push rods on the same cylinder
2) verify the overall lengths with a digital mic
3) Order a pair of cheap Manton pushrods to confirm our measurements match, then proceed to measure all and order in a stronger Manton push rod
Last edited by JimMueller; Mar 26, 2019 at 12:16 PM.
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I'm using their ST2116LSR lifter and to be honest wish I hadn't. You have to get push rods absolutely spot on, which I'm confident I did, but I had to remeasure all of them a few times. Johnson themselves even said the normal 2116LSR will go to 8k RPM easily and very few people really need the ST version. I would call them and see if you really need ST because it add complications you may not need to deal with.
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my numbers got much more accurate and "tighter" together when i started focusing more on counting turns than feeling lash........i mean just because they are all semi close doesnt mean im right
Part of the reason I chose the 2126lsr with .093 travel. Significantly reduced travel, but still able to run an single length set of off the shelf pushrods.
l measured to zero lash on cold engine, and added .045 preload. Aluminum block/aluminum head, so I should be right at 35-38 hot.
l measured to zero lash on cold engine, and added .045 preload. Aluminum block/aluminum head, so I should be right at 35-38 hot.
I already received the lifters a few days ago but we haven't gotten to the stage where we measure for push rod length yet. This is the process I had planned to use, is there a better way?
1) Use an adjustable push rod length checker to find zero lash at TDC on both push rods on the same cylinder
2) verify the overall lengths with a digital mic
3) Order a pair of cheap Manton pushrods to confirm our measurements match, then proceed to measure all and order in a stronger Manton push rod
1) Use an adjustable push rod length checker to find zero lash at TDC on both push rods on the same cylinder
2) verify the overall lengths with a digital mic
3) Order a pair of cheap Manton pushrods to confirm our measurements match, then proceed to measure all and order in a stronger Manton push rod
Part of the reason I chose the 2126lsr with .093 travel. Significantly reduced travel, but still able to run an single length set of off the shelf pushrods.
l measured to zero lash on cold engine, and added .045 preload. Aluminum block/aluminum head, so I should be right at 35-38 hot.
l measured to zero lash on cold engine, and added .045 preload. Aluminum block/aluminum head, so I should be right at 35-38 hot.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
The shop used the new head gaskets to measure pushrod length and stated we can safely re-use them since they have not been exposed to heat. Can anyone confirm I don't need to order another set of head gaskets?
They said they followed the directions given to me by Al at Manton... confirm valve is on the base circle, torque rocker to 22ft-lbs, extend adjustable checker to 0 lash, then measure overall length of checker with a digital caliper. They come up with all intake push rods at 7.415" and all exhaust push rods at 7.400". I find that uncannily similar to the OEM 7.400" length.They did measure the base circle and said that the intake & exhaust were slightly different, and that was the reason for the different push rod length difference.
* the 823 head had a 65.5cc chamber (stock chamber is ~70cc-65.5cc=4.5cc * 0.0055in/cc = ~0.025" milled)
* the head gasket is about 0.010-0.015 thinner
* we took 0,013 off the deck
* Randy at Johnson said that this lifter generally needs about a .190" longer push rod
* perhaps a difference base circle than stock
Al said to send him the numbers in a spreadsheet and he'd see if they were all close enough to use a common length with this lifter. The numbers don't seem to add up with the change in the stacked height... do I just go with what they measured and add the .0035" preload to the lengths?
The shop just called me back. Using the adjustable push rod tester to get 0 lash, piston to valve clearance is no problem, and they degree'd the cam and it matched the cam sheet. However, they noticed something odd like perhaps the lifter wasn't all the way down on the lobe yesterday. They re-measured, now they are getting all push rod lengths to be 7.467"-7.472", which I find strange given the intake lobe lift is 0.36567 and the exhaust lobe lift is 0.35563, taken from the cam sheet provided. Yesterday the shop owner got 7.400 & 7.415, and the other builder can only guesstimate that the reason they are all so similar given the different lobe lift is because there isn't any pressure in the lifter. Ironically the shop doesn't call until after Johnson has closed for the day
With Joe not being available, I conferenced Al with my builder (not the shop owner) and we all seem to be on the same page now. Al thinks if we go with a set of 7.510's (avg 7.470 + .040 cold preload) we should be golden.
They said they followed the directions given to me by Al at Manton... confirm valve is on the base circle, torque rocker to 22ft-lbs, extend adjustable checker to 0 lash, then measure overall length of checker with a digital caliper. They come up with all intake push rods at 7.415" and all exhaust push rods at 7.400". I find that uncannily similar to the OEM 7.400" length.They did measure the base circle and said that the intake & exhaust were slightly different, and that was the reason for the different push rod length difference.
* the 823 head had a 65.5cc chamber (stock chamber is ~70cc-65.5cc=4.5cc * 0.0055in/cc = ~0.025" milled)
* the head gasket is about 0.010-0.015 thinner
* we took 0,013 off the deck
* Randy at Johnson said that this lifter generally needs about a .190" longer push rod
* perhaps a difference base circle than stock
Al said to send him the numbers in a spreadsheet and he'd see if they were all close enough to use a common length with this lifter. The numbers don't seem to add up with the change in the stacked height... do I just go with what they measured and add the .0035" preload to the lengths?
- I spoke with Cammotion this morning and they did state the cam lobe base circles would give that difference in push rod length.
- I spoke with Johnson again this morning and Joe advised to not order push rods until we verify piston to valve clearance, which is expected to happen today. He told me to shoot for 40 thousandths cold if PTV is fine, or 35 thousandths cold if PTV is a little low. It sounds like I have to wait for PTV to be measured, which is dependent upon the cam degreeing (I’m not sure if this has already been completed).
The shop just called me back. Using the adjustable push rod tester to get 0 lash, piston to valve clearance is no problem, and they degree'd the cam and it matched the cam sheet. However, they noticed something odd like perhaps the lifter wasn't all the way down on the lobe yesterday. They re-measured, now they are getting all push rod lengths to be 7.467"-7.472", which I find strange given the intake lobe lift is 0.36567 and the exhaust lobe lift is 0.35563, taken from the cam sheet provided. Yesterday the shop owner got 7.400 & 7.415, and the other builder can only guesstimate that the reason they are all so similar given the different lobe lift is because there isn't any pressure in the lifter. Ironically the shop doesn't call until after Johnson has closed for the day
With Joe not being available, I conferenced Al with my builder (not the shop owner) and we all seem to be on the same page now. Al thinks if we go with a set of 7.510's (avg 7.470 + .040 cold preload) we should be golden.
Last edited by JimMueller; Apr 2, 2019 at 04:50 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
The shop didn't have a 8" digital caliper, so they were improvising with their SnapOn, and arriving at the same numbers. The passenger side pushrods had not been checked nor had those lifters been compressed yet. So we happened to start at cylinder #8 and work our way to cylinder #2. A our luck would have it, when we got to #2 exhaust, the measurement was significantly shorter. We examined the rocker stand closely and found that a number of the mounts were gouged or dinged up, so we're going to replace both of the OEM rocker stands with new and *sigh* measure again. Might there be a sturdier rocker arm stand for OEM LS3 rockers on OEM L92 heads? If we can't get the OEM stands, I might consider an aftermarket stand solution if one exists.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 22,298
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From: Central Cal.
Lobe lift is the LIFT spec. Base circles can be the same which would allow same-length pushrods. Base circles will NOT differ between intake and exhaust. You are confusing base circle specs with lobe lifts, which are simply lift specs before rocker multiplication.
so im very confused as to how they are getting the same lengths when you are clearly running a short travel with a .010 range......i would think since these are not offset rockers you would need about 4 different ordered lengths.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,072
Likes: 75
From: Casselberry FL
.010 range? Johnson says the ST2126LSR max travel is 58 thousandths, and the desired preload is 35-40 thousandths on an aluminum block & head engine.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20075676
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20075676