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Cylinder Heads - What Matters Most?

 
Old 05-29-2019, 11:08 PM
  #201  
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Still haven't seen anything out do mast heads, brodix otb 275's made 799 vs 810 with the same 495 used in the HR test.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:32 PM
  #202  
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The numbers I have seen with mast are 395 at 700 on a 285 runner vs 420 at 700 on a 273 or 265cc runner.

Hell mast 265 flow around 370 at 700.
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:15 AM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by fnbadaz06 View Post
This was my original setup, running the Katech Torquer 110 cam, 1st gen, which means that the cam was a straight up 110 LSA without the 4 degrees. It was designed specifically for low and mid range grunt for those who track their cars. Note that on E85, my N/A LS7 was approaching 550 ft/lbs of torque...it drove like a mildly supercharged car, as it easily spun the MPSC tires on a 60 MPH roll-on in 2nd gear. That cam was never designed to be a drag race cam, but I still pulled 10.50's @132-133 out of it regularly...at 3000+ DA no less

I later swapped to the Katech K501 cam, and bumped my compression up to 12.0:1 by way of a piston swap....same WCCH Stage 2 heads, swapped from a FAST 102 to the MSD, still using my B&B 1 7/8th long tubes. With less dynamic compression with the K501, I dropped a significant amount of torque, but tacked on 30+ RWHP up top..., 600 RWHP and 511 torque, which made it a bit easier to hit the throttle at low RPM's and not obliterate the tires......but, the missing low end grunt didn't let the car 60' as well without raising the launch RPM considerably. With the K501 cam and MSD, I took the car to [email protected] at 2000+ DA , but before I could really maximize the setup (I think a 10.2x @ 136+ was there with a better launch), I spun a rod bearing. The K501 setup also did a 166.1 MPH standing start 1/2 mile in AZ, 194+ in the mile, and 204.7 in the 1.5 standing mile

My new setup is a whole different monster LOL

Katech Torquer 110 cam versus Katech K501 cam...both E85 pulls....

Thanks again for posting more data.
The Katech K501 should have performed a lot better than what it's showing on the sheet.
Even that camshaft is still a little too mild for your combo in terms of valve events.
It would be good to see your compression get altered and see the torque curve then.You should not have lost so much torque off idle till 6000rpm.
The biggest gains come from 6000rpm+ and the power hangs on nicely till 6800 before it begins falling off which is good.
I remember in my LS 408 I had fitted a 223/231 111 LSA cam ( this camshaft was meant for my 6.0 but I ended up having to rebuild engine)
Once I swapped to a 236/244 114 LSA +2, I didn't gain any torque on the dyno but I gained 45rwhp.
On the road the engine was so much torquier especially low down.
Dynamic compression was good though.
240/253 115 LSA +3 would work well with the correct dynamic compression.
Really like your data
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:17 AM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The tfs dual pac springs are actually rated to .650.. if that's the reason you were limiting your build, don't come up with reasons why just say that. But also if a spring is rated for X hundred lift that means you can run up to that lift.

But having talked to tfs on a near weekly basis and selling their heads, those duals are good for .650 lift. If steel id keep it under .630 though. If titanium .650 is fine.
Call and ask the tech guy will likely tell you the same thing.
Well thank you for that info, I was/am confused because TFS website says "max lift .600" BUT I could not find Pac dual springs rated that way? I will call TFS and confirm . But If so I have this cam in mind 231/239 .617/.624 113+4 109 ICL PS I did get the Ti retainers
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:20 AM
  #205  
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Dont use that comp cam imo. Better off with a tsp grind. We sell and install them all and its a much better design.
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:13 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
The numbers I have seen with mast are 395 at 700 on a 285 runner vs 420 at 700 on a 273 or 265cc runner.

Hell mast 265 flow around 370 at 700.
Hmmmm very interesting. Mast is suppose to be top dog and they are priced as the top dog as well.
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:25 AM
  #207  
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a fully decked out mamo will be a hair cheaper than a decked out mast casting
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:29 AM
  #208  
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My bore is 4.185, so a bit more unshrouding of the valves over this test..... having all the data to make an educated selection of supporting parts is key
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Old 05-30-2019, 07:43 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
Thanks again for posting more data.
The Katech K501 should have performed a lot better than what it's showing on the sheet.
Even that camshaft is still a little too mild for your combo in terms of valve events.
It would be good to see your compression get altered and see the torque curve then.You should not have lost so much torque off idle till 6000rpm.
The biggest gains come from 6000rpm+ and the power hangs on nicely till 6800 before it begins falling off which is good.
I remember in my LS 408 I had fitted a 223/231 111 LSA cam ( this camshaft was meant for my 6.0 but I ended up having to rebuild engine)
Once I swapped to a 236/244 114 LSA +2, I didn't gain any torque on the dyno but I gained 45rwhp.
On the road the engine was so much torquier especially low down.
Dynamic compression was good though.
240/253 115 LSA +3 would work well with the correct dynamic compression.
Really like your data
The K501 dyno pull was done on my extremely heavy 20" 335/25/20 run flat combo.....72# a piece....so the delta spread between the two would probably be a bit smaller than what is actually presented above, but a chassis dyno is just a tool to me

My new build is going on the engine dyno, so that data is going to be very relevant to me and a number of other guys who are doing similar builds but waiting on my test.
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:11 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by fnbadaz06 View Post
The K501 dyno pull was done on my extremely heavy 20" 335/25/20 run flat combo.....72# a piece....so the delta spread between the two would probably be a bit smaller than what is actually presented above, but a chassis dyno is just a tool to me

My new build is going on the engine dyno, so that data is going to be very relevant to me and a number of other guys who are doing similar builds but waiting on my test.
Ok. I understand.
Hopefully next week I will finally have my vehicle back and I will be able to post up my dyno results.
Will be interesting to see how much power I make.
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:14 AM
  #211  
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It's not all about cfm* and U can have Too much floor spd....if not told. Darth also remember, tq Can Not be controlled as you & i both no....Car just won't hook......guy's go by BS cfm....i find it better to use the rule of what porter has results and having use 2 of the best...Darth my heads out flow Mast from .100 to .800 still willing to bet Mast heads would make more hp. CFM isn't everything. Some may ask Y not start with the mast heads...not Dumb. 3k + work needed for my 8k rpm curtain and a 265 mast head...it needs more area or CSA.


http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...cylinder-heads


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp...top-ls7-heads/
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:22 AM
  #212  
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Honestly....get a good casting.....Brodix big spring! Have your choice in porters. Done!

You guy's do know most of the stuff talked about is talk...how is that zo6 tanner ported heads out Ran some of the porters named and their aftermarket ported heads?
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:25 AM
  #213  
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Out of curiosity, what heads have you guys seen on a 416/41X ci seen make the most power on pump gas?
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Old 05-30-2019, 09:31 AM
  #214  
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? is how much compression and cam did the 416 / 41x use.
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Old 05-30-2019, 10:22 AM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by bortous View Post
Ok. I understand.
Hopefully next week I will finally have my vehicle back and I will be able to post up my dyno results.
Will be interesting to see how much power I make.
Good luck !!!!

On a "marine" spec camshaft and straight cut gear race transmission, on 11.5 compression, one of the recent test on a friends car looked pretty solid, given the cam gave up the ghost around 6400 RPM.
We are running more compression, a much larger camshaft, BR7 heads, and a better intake (hopefully), on E54, and aiming for a peak closer to 7100 RPM....but the preliminary test are looking good so far


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Old 05-30-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tuskyz28 View Post
Out of curiosity, what heads have you guys seen on a 416/41X ci seen make the most power on pump gas?
I don't pay much attention to the strokers. I know more cubes is better, but I find that the LS really likes to be oversquare. 388 (4.125 x 3.622) vs 383 (3.9 x 4.0). Only 5 cubes difference, but the 388 will completely outclass the 383. If you're going to build a 416, I truly think you would do better to build a 427. You're forcing yourself to use a smaller valve to feed more cubes with a stroker. Most of the 416 type builds I see tend to be budget builds and use LS3 heads. Which are great factory heads.But I'm sure there are better heads for those builds.

Hammer always jokes about them being tow truck engines, but if you think about it..

Small valve feeding a big cylinder - great for torque, run out of flow up top
Longer lever arm for more torque, but resists revving
Improved intake manifold vacuum - also great for torque

On mine, I sometimes with I had just punched it out to 4.185 instead of 4.130 and been done with it.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:01 AM
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Tony Mamo quoted me $4500ish for his LS7 heads with all the optimum parts and work done to them.
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Old 05-30-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Smokey B View Post
Honestly....get a good casting.....Brodix big spring! Have your choice in porters. Done!

You guy's do know most of the stuff talked about is talk...how is that zo6 tanner ported heads out Ran some of the porters named and their aftermarket ported heads?
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Later this year, I WILL be upgrading heads. And likely recamming. And I still want to do ITB, but life events. I have dropped some COIN this year on family stuff. And I am very curious to see what Tony could do with the Brodix 273. Or Darin. Or anyone else. But If Tony himself tells me that he gets better results with the tfs casting than the brodix casting, I believe him. I definitely do not want to buy TWO sets of expensive heads. For example, what if you were to talk to Greg Good and he tells you "such-and-such" casting isn't really good and he gets better result with "so-and-so" castings? You'd believe him, I would think.

As to the z06 you mentioned - what is the rest of the details? The rest of the car? How much gear or weight reduction would you need to do to offset a better cylinder head? Likely not too much, right? Keeping in line with the topic of the thread -- what about that head makes the tanner z06 head that you referenced the best?
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:23 PM
  #219  
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FWIW, when Tony was developing his MMS 265 heads, he originally started down the path of using the Brodix castings instead of the TFS. If I recall our conversation correctly, he switched to the TFS as they were more willing to work with him and his custom ports at a better price point. It's been over 2 years since we had that conversation, but that is the jist of what I recall him telling me.
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Old 05-30-2019, 12:33 PM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by Darth_V8r View Post
I don't pay much attention to the strokers. I know more cubes is better, but I find that the LS really likes to be oversquare. 388 (4.125 x 3.622) vs 383 (3.9 x 4.0). Only 5 cubes difference, but the 388 will completely outclass the 383. If you're going to build a 416, I truly think you would do better to build a 427. You're forcing yourself to use a smaller valve to feed more cubes with a stroker. Most of the 416 type builds I see tend to be budget builds and use LS3 heads. Which are great factory heads.But I'm sure there are better heads for those builds.

Hammer always jokes about them being tow truck engines, but if you think about it..

Small valve feeding a big cylinder - great for torque, run out of flow up top
Longer lever arm for more torque, but resists revving
Improved intake manifold vacuum - also great for torque

On mine, I sometimes with I had just punched it out to 4.185 instead of 4.130 and been done with it.
Darth people build the ls3 to 416 cubes so they can do another rebuild down the road.
If you do a 427 on an LS3 it's a throw away if it ever needs to be rebuilt again.
Same with my LS2 408.
When I build another engine one day I will either use the LS9 or Dart Aluminium Block.
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