Is this too much blow by?
09-12-2019 | 06:07 PM
#41
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 21,579
Likes: 3,301
From: Central Cal.
Hmmm, we DO see. You fancy yourself a teacher of a subject(s) you yourself are still an elementary student of.
You're "teaching" to a crowd (not myself) that knows much more than you only because they have PRACTICAL HANDS-ON KNOWLEDGE that you are woefully short of.
Plus the fact that you consider yourself to be "teaching us" is pretty conceited on your part. You have book smarts, but not hands on knowledge. That is quite obvious.
Lot of pretense going on here...
You're "teaching" to a crowd (not myself) that knows much more than you only because they have PRACTICAL HANDS-ON KNOWLEDGE that you are woefully short of.
Plus the fact that you consider yourself to be "teaching us" is pretty conceited on your part. You have book smarts, but not hands on knowledge. That is quite obvious.
Lot of pretense going on here...
09-12-2019 | 08:11 PM
#42
Kingtalon, with no horse in this race because i simply do not know much on this particular subject. I will say you create strong arguements n defly believe in your beliefs. As a technical discussion, i can appreciate the arguement. Just please tell me your NOT a flat earther too?!?!
09-12-2019 | 08:59 PM
#43
Originally Posted by kingtal0n;20147693
[left
[left
Quote:]
Purpose of your Stock PCV System:
The PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system is designed to regulate and remove fumes from the engine crankcase, and to alleviate crankcase pressure which could cause oil leaks or seal damage. >That's exactly what a vented catch can does, It give the pressure a pathway to escape!
I agree strongly with that
next,
Very professionally done solution there. Instead of simply using a breather, and a can to vent, they are doing it right the way, addressing the oil ingestion issue directly and maintaining the pcv system as OEM function intended to help control oil and keep oil inside the engine and pressure off the seals.
Again you prove my point.... A Vent is a place for pressure to escape aka...VENTED Catch Can and PCV system is just a vent at WOT!
Purpose of your Stock PCV System:
The PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system is designed to regulate and remove fumes from the engine crankcase, and to alleviate crankcase pressure which could cause oil leaks or seal damage. >That's exactly what a vented catch can does, It give the pressure a pathway to escape!
I agree strongly with that
next,
Quote:
The Clean-side solution addresses that small amount of oil vapor that enters the intake air charge upstream of the throttle body during WOT operation when the intake manifold vacuum is not present... >See no vacuum means no help to ring seal and does nothing at that point to keep oil in the engine. Seal an engine as in no where for crankcase pressure to escape and you will blow seals, Vent it and you will not..PCV OR NO PCV AS LONG AS IT'S VENTED IT WILL NO BLOW OUT SEALS! How hard is this for you to understand!
Oh and when you did your copy and paste from the Clean-side website you forgot to include this part lol
Although app. 90-95% of the oil ingestion via the intake air charge enters via the “Dirty” or “foul” side of the PCV system, the other 5-10% enter via back flow through the factory “clean” or “fresh” side tube. This occurs mainly when accelerating or at wide open throttle when intake manifold vacuum drops to zero and crankcase pressure is allowed to build. This pressure will seek the path of least resistance, which is backwards flowing into the intake air bridge assembly bringing in oil mist and other contaminants into the intake air charge. While this will not cause severe issue with a port injection daily driven engine, it will cause detonation and reduced power and fuel economy, and in a performance engine, especially forced induction, this detonation is detrimental to power and the resulting knock retard is a negative tuners and owners should avoid, especially if the engine is run hard for extended periods such as road racing, drag racing, or aggressive driving period
Why would you want nasty oil vapor/combustion gases directed back into your engine when a more frequent oil change accomplishes the same thing without being detrimental to performance?The Clean-side solution addresses that small amount of oil vapor that enters the intake air charge upstream of the throttle body during WOT operation when the intake manifold vacuum is not present... >See no vacuum means no help to ring seal and does nothing at that point to keep oil in the engine. Seal an engine as in no where for crankcase pressure to escape and you will blow seals, Vent it and you will not..PCV OR NO PCV AS LONG AS IT'S VENTED IT WILL NO BLOW OUT SEALS! How hard is this for you to understand!
Oh and when you did your copy and paste from the Clean-side website you forgot to include this part lol
Although app. 90-95% of the oil ingestion via the intake air charge enters via the “Dirty” or “foul” side of the PCV system, the other 5-10% enter via back flow through the factory “clean” or “fresh” side tube. This occurs mainly when accelerating or at wide open throttle when intake manifold vacuum drops to zero and crankcase pressure is allowed to build. This pressure will seek the path of least resistance, which is backwards flowing into the intake air bridge assembly bringing in oil mist and other contaminants into the intake air charge. While this will not cause severe issue with a port injection daily driven engine, it will cause detonation and reduced power and fuel economy, and in a performance engine, especially forced induction, this detonation is detrimental to power and the resulting knock retard is a negative tuners and owners should avoid, especially if the engine is run hard for extended periods such as road racing, drag racing, or aggressive driving period
Very professionally done solution there. Instead of simply using a breather, and a can to vent, they are doing it right the way, addressing the oil ingestion issue directly and maintaining the pcv system as OEM function intended to help control oil and keep oil inside the engine and pressure off the seals.
Again you prove my point.... A Vent is a place for pressure to escape aka...VENTED Catch Can and PCV system is just a vent at WOT!
As I stated many times in this thread, A pcv valve does nothing at wide open throttle because there is no vacuum, It works great at idle and part throttle in a stock aka OEM engine. So other than keep the engine oil cleaner for a longer period of time it does nothing for performance and certainly does nothing to keep oil in the engine other than vent it and that's exactly what you are doing when running a catch can VENTED to the atmosphere.
Remember we are talking about STOCK type PCV systems, Not vacuum pumps and no dry sumps
Last edited by LLLosingit; 09-12-2019 at 09:36 PM.
09-12-2019 | 09:38 PM
#44
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1600133949
http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/b...-check-valves/
I looked at all their documentation and installation instructions for "high tech" catch can and it's all done exactly as I've been suggesting/teaching.
So if you don't take my word for it, take theirs? How many places need to show you proper pcv before it sinks in that in 2019 we have X different ways to pull a vacuum:
electric pump
mechanical pump
scavenge exhaust
intake pressure
Which adds performance to the engine of this nature:
And instead LLosing it can't come up with a single method for adding this level of professional performance to the engine, and his solution is to put a breather on it and call it done? Mods are deleting posts because they don't understand how engines work?
Just throw away all the benefits because? too lazy?
thats what this is all about. LLosing it saying breather is fine, and PCV has nothing to do with oil control.
Then I prove it does have everything about oil control.
And now what happened? Got nothing to say
http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/b...-check-valves/
I looked at all their documentation and installation instructions for "high tech" catch can and it's all done exactly as I've been suggesting/teaching.
So if you don't take my word for it, take theirs? How many places need to show you proper pcv before it sinks in that in 2019 we have X different ways to pull a vacuum:
electric pump
mechanical pump
scavenge exhaust
intake pressure
Which adds performance to the engine of this nature:
- Improved ring seal by relieving crankcase pressure below the rings
- Reduced friction by allowing lighter tension rings
- Reduced windage around the rotating assembly
- Improved oil scavenging
- Reduced parasitic pumping losses
- Minimized cavitation (in wet sump applications)
- Reduced lubricant contamination
- Improved bay to bay breathing in Y-block configurations
- Improved power via reduced mixture contamination
- Reduced gas port contamination
And instead LLosing it can't come up with a single method for adding this level of professional performance to the engine, and his solution is to put a breather on it and call it done? Mods are deleting posts because they don't understand how engines work?
Just throw away all the benefits because? too lazy?
thats what this is all about. LLosing it saying breather is fine, and PCV has nothing to do with oil control.
Then I prove it does have everything about oil control.
And now what happened? Got nothing to say
09-12-2019 | 09:48 PM
#45
Talon, posts are getting deleted because of info being posted by yourself that’s wrong. People are leaving online forums everyday because of crap like this. I had my hands in a record setting cup engine and many others as well, probably before you were born. If your implying that I don’t understand how an engine works, you might want to retract that before you find yourself getting banned...again.
I try to post what I have learned over the years and do so with an open mind, Some things are open to interpretation and there are no real true answers and I understand that.
09-12-2019 | 09:55 PM
#46
1.) PCV does not flow oil.
2.,) The product of PCV does not stay inside the engine either.
3.) PCV is the pulling of crankcase vapors " Which is the stuff we see coming out of our breathers when we vent to atmosphere" into the intake manifold by way of vacuum where its reintroduced back into the combustion chambers to be re-ignited and finally out the tail pipe.
Is PCV a cleaner way to deal with crankcase ventilation? Sure it is but it does nothing to improve engine performance.
Most people who are building performance engines do not want the crankcase vapors going back into the manifold to be re-ignited and do you know why? Obviously not because we continue to have this discussion.
Now lets talk about vacuum pumps to ventilate the crankcase. RACING ENGINES that utilize a vacuum pump run low tension rings and I guarantee you that the crankcase vapors they are pulling from the crankcase are not being re-introduced back into the engine via the intake manifold to be re-ignited they are vented to atmosphere.
There are some very knowledgeable people on here that know a hell of lot more than I do who have posted on this thread and I hope you now have a better understanding as to why people choose to vent to atmosphere.
09-15-2019 | 11:07 PM
#47
Talon, posts are getting deleted because of info being posted by yourself that’s wrong. People are leaving online forums everyday because of crap like this. I had my hands in a record setting cup engine and many others as well, probably before you were born. If your implying that I don’t understand how an engine works, you might want to retract that before you find yourself getting banned...again.
The posted picture(s) are of the factory PCV orientation, you are claiming the OEM pcv system is wrong?
then I show aftermarket solutions using the pcv system in the same orientation properly, the same way as OEM with oil containment strategy, and it too is "wrong"? I'd love to see you prove that
I have even applied this knowledge to protect my own 5.3L turbo engine, with video proof provided the system works in a link above, and you are saying it is "wrong" LOL!
how there is still any argument? Do you need a better picture? I will try one day to make a better one so you can learn why OEM PCV system is not wrong and neither is the aftermarket solution when properly applied to avoid using a simple VENT which offers NO BENEFITS!
I don't "see" how you can simply "avoid looking at" the OEM solutions, and appropriate aftermarket solutions, and still be ignorant of pcv function to protect oil seals. I would suggest anybody that doesn't understand basic OEM PCV is quite 'ignorant' of ice engine theory. Just for starters, that is an essential and simple rote function, absolutely top priority in racing (crankcase pressure monitoring is paramount for any serious racer) and daily-driver applications because of it's oil containment strategy imparted to protect oil seals at both part and wide open throttle.
Whether using a vacuum pump or intake suction, it matters not. Both systems can be properly applied to improve oil control of crankcase and improve ring behavior.
09-15-2019 | 11:17 PM
#48
You got to be kidding right?
1.) PCV does not flow oil.
2.,) The product of PCV does not stay inside the engine either.
3.) PCV is the pulling of crankcase vapors " Which is the stuff we see coming out of our breathers when we vent to atmosphere" into the intake manifold by way of vacuum where its reintroduced back into the combustion chambers to be re-ignited and finally out the tail pipe.
Is PCV a cleaner way to deal with crankcase ventilation? Sure it is but it does nothing to improve engine performance.
Most people who are building performance engines do not want the crankcase vapors going back into the manifold to be re-ignited and do you know why? Obviously not because we continue to have this discussion.
Now lets talk about vacuum pumps to ventilate the crankcase. RACING ENGINES that utilize a vacuum pump run low tension rings and I guarantee you that the crankcase vapors they are pulling from the crankcase are not being re-introduced back into the engine via the intake manifold to be re-ignited they are vented to atmosphere.
There are some very knowledgeable people on here that know a hell of lot more than I do who have posted on this thread and I hope you now have a better understanding as to why people choose to vent to atmosphere.
1.) PCV does not flow oil.
2.,) The product of PCV does not stay inside the engine either.
3.) PCV is the pulling of crankcase vapors " Which is the stuff we see coming out of our breathers when we vent to atmosphere" into the intake manifold by way of vacuum where its reintroduced back into the combustion chambers to be re-ignited and finally out the tail pipe.
Is PCV a cleaner way to deal with crankcase ventilation? Sure it is but it does nothing to improve engine performance.
Most people who are building performance engines do not want the crankcase vapors going back into the manifold to be re-ignited and do you know why? Obviously not because we continue to have this discussion.
Now lets talk about vacuum pumps to ventilate the crankcase. RACING ENGINES that utilize a vacuum pump run low tension rings and I guarantee you that the crankcase vapors they are pulling from the crankcase are not being re-introduced back into the engine via the intake manifold to be re-ignited they are vented to atmosphere.
There are some very knowledgeable people on here that know a hell of lot more than I do who have posted on this thread and I hope you now have a better understanding as to why people choose to vent to atmosphere.
1.) PCV does not flow oil.
PCV means positive crankcase ventilation...
so to say positive crankcase ventilation does not flow oil... what does that mean?
crankcase ventilation by definition just means (going by the word for word) a vent in the crankcase which posses a pressure scalar that will assist the crankcase vent.
Which we all know will absolutely fill with engine oil if it is not designed properly.
That is a big part of this discussion. The aftermarket solution for example I shown above, includes catch-can like devices for OEM PCV-OIL FLOW to capture the oil and contain it for easy cleaning. There is also the option of opening the OEM baffle and re-welding and modifying the OIL baffle inside the valve cover to eliminate the need for such external devices.
So our goal here is to maintain a "positive" crankcase pressure, VIA some kind of active pressure venting system (which not only vents but ASSISTS with a pressure drop to speed/improve the venting and take pressure off the oil seals) and keep from having the oil come through while doing so, while it is splashing and breaking waves over all the engine parts at 7k 8k 9k whatever.
09-15-2019 | 11:44 PM
#49
You know , thanks for at least taking the time to write something so I know where some are getting stuck
The product of a positive crankcase ventilation system is... nothing. It literally produces nothing by itself.
Again wording is important here. Positive crankcase ventilation VAPORS which happen to be a product of combustion are dealt with somehow.
They are: 1. sent back to the combustion chamber where they re-'burnt' and sent towards the exit of exhaust, 2. stuck to some surface or trapped within liquid engine oil, or 3. evacuated and ejected somehow. These are the possibilities that come to mind atm.
So I am not sure what you are trying to say here. The product of potential pcv system (vapors) do sometimes stay inside the engine, if they get trapped into the oil or a filter or stuck to some wall somewhere. Then yes they do stay inside the engine and can. Wording is important again because if you disable the PCV system and use a plain VENT instead, then you can't say 'pcv products' you can only use the words 'crankcase vapors'. So essentially we tun 'crankcase vapors' or 'crankcase pressure vapors' into 'pcv vapor products' when we apply the low pressure suction gradient to the crankcase using one of the mentioned methods (intake suction, vacuum pump, etc...)
The product of combustion "blowby" which passes the rings of all healthy and unhealthy engines is allowed to mingle with engine oil and engine surfaces where it CAN and WILL stick some. This is part of the reason PCV is so important- even if you are pulling a pressure drop with the engine intake it will still protect the quality and conditional of internal engine parts and oil. Which is why I am bother to write all this! I want everyone to have a cleaner engine, realize the benefit, stop using a PLAIN *** VENT thats ALL im sayin'
I'm really glad you brought this up
Nowhere anywhere did I say intake suction PCV improves power. IDGAF about power honestly. All I want is a cleaner engine and less oil leaks.
I made that clear
If we modify that long list of benefits for PCV systems to ONLY apply to OEM pcv intake driven suction, this is how it looks:
The vacuum pump solution provides PERFORMANCE boost. That is how you get 10-100hp from an engine in additional by applying crankcase low pressure suction and ejecting contents.
I NEVER suggested that intake driven suction was to improve performance. I only mentioned that PCV is absolutely a performance-boost when done a certain way- because somebody suggested that PCV has nothing to do with performance. Again, wording. Clearly PCV can add 100hp to an engine (2-4% roughly)when done properly, so nobody can say that PCV doesn't improve performance.
Lets look a couple things,
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1599127531
PCV selection for high performance is indepth analysis and tuning of variables,
see for example
www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ315_34-44.pdf
So we see, a "vent" i.e. letting the crankcase pressure build and exit means the PCV system is NOT working properly.
Couple links strewn
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20133070
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20135138
that was 8-11-2019
never edited like many majority of my posts,
you can see that this was not lost on me at least now, that it will cost power to run PCV from intake suction during WOT. Yeah, I got that, and you know that I knew it all along
The product of a positive crankcase ventilation system is... nothing. It literally produces nothing by itself.
Again wording is important here. Positive crankcase ventilation VAPORS which happen to be a product of combustion are dealt with somehow.
They are: 1. sent back to the combustion chamber where they re-'burnt' and sent towards the exit of exhaust, 2. stuck to some surface or trapped within liquid engine oil, or 3. evacuated and ejected somehow. These are the possibilities that come to mind atm.
So I am not sure what you are trying to say here. The product of potential pcv system (vapors) do sometimes stay inside the engine, if they get trapped into the oil or a filter or stuck to some wall somewhere. Then yes they do stay inside the engine and can. Wording is important again because if you disable the PCV system and use a plain VENT instead, then you can't say 'pcv products' you can only use the words 'crankcase vapors'. So essentially we tun 'crankcase vapors' or 'crankcase pressure vapors' into 'pcv vapor products' when we apply the low pressure suction gradient to the crankcase using one of the mentioned methods (intake suction, vacuum pump, etc...)
The product of combustion "blowby" which passes the rings of all healthy and unhealthy engines is allowed to mingle with engine oil and engine surfaces where it CAN and WILL stick some. This is part of the reason PCV is so important- even if you are pulling a pressure drop with the engine intake it will still protect the quality and conditional of internal engine parts and oil. Which is why I am bother to write all this! I want everyone to have a cleaner engine, realize the benefit, stop using a PLAIN *** VENT thats ALL im sayin'
3.) PCV is the pulling of crankcase vapors " Which is the stuff we see coming out of our breathers when we vent to atmosphere" into the intake manifold by way of vacuum where its reintroduced back into the combustion chambers to be re-ignited and finally out the tail pipe.
Is PCV a cleaner way to deal with crankcase ventilation? Sure it is but it does nothing to improve engine performance.
Most people who are building performance engines do not want the crankcase vapors going back into the manifold to be re-ignited and do you know why? Obviously not because we continue to have this discussion.
Is PCV a cleaner way to deal with crankcase ventilation? Sure it is but it does nothing to improve engine performance.
Most people who are building performance engines do not want the crankcase vapors going back into the manifold to be re-ignited and do you know why? Obviously not because we continue to have this discussion.
Nowhere anywhere did I say intake suction PCV improves power. IDGAF about power honestly. All I want is a cleaner engine and less oil leaks.
I made that clear
If we modify that long list of benefits for PCV systems to ONLY apply to OEM pcv intake driven suction, this is how it looks:
- Improved ring seal by relieving crankcase pressure below the rings
Reduced friction by allowing lighter tension rings- Reduced windage around the rotating assembly
- Improved oil scavenging
- Reduced parasitic pumping losses
- Minimized cavitation (in wet sump applications)
- Reduced lubricant contamination
- I
mproved bay to bay breathing in Y-block configurations Improved power via reduced mixture contamination- Reduced gas port contamination
The vacuum pump solution provides PERFORMANCE boost. That is how you get 10-100hp from an engine in additional by applying crankcase low pressure suction and ejecting contents.
I NEVER suggested that intake driven suction was to improve performance. I only mentioned that PCV is absolutely a performance-boost when done a certain way- because somebody suggested that PCV has nothing to do with performance. Again, wording. Clearly PCV can add 100hp to an engine (2-4% roughly)when done properly, so nobody can say that PCV doesn't improve performance.
Lets look a couple things,
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1599127531
PCV selection for high performance is indepth analysis and tuning of variables,
see for example
www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ315_34-44.pdf
We elected to use crankcase pressure as a metric for evaluating the PCV system’s
performance. Measurement with sensitive instrumentation confirmed what we already knew; if the PCV system is working properly, a slight vacuum should be present in the crankcase. This is not vacuum to the level of that which would be observed with a crankcase vacuum pump, however if the PCV valve is properly ventilating the crankcase, fresh air should be pulled in through the crankcase inlet breather or hose. To trigger this flow, a pressure differential must be present from the outside atmosphere to the inside of the crankcase. If the PCV system is not functioning properly, the crankcase will push vapors out of the crankcase
inlet vent or hose. In this condition, the crankcase will be under positive pressure.
performance. Measurement with sensitive instrumentation confirmed what we already knew; if the PCV system is working properly, a slight vacuum should be present in the crankcase. This is not vacuum to the level of that which would be observed with a crankcase vacuum pump, however if the PCV valve is properly ventilating the crankcase, fresh air should be pulled in through the crankcase inlet breather or hose. To trigger this flow, a pressure differential must be present from the outside atmosphere to the inside of the crankcase. If the PCV system is not functioning properly, the crankcase will push vapors out of the crankcase
inlet vent or hose. In this condition, the crankcase will be under positive pressure.
Couple links strewn
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20133070
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...l#post20135138
Originally Posted by kingtal0n
It will cost some power of course, which is why this method is not favored among the highest output crowds. So this method is for people who are willing to give up some hp in order to better control over their oil systems.
never edited like many majority of my posts,
you can see that this was not lost on me at least now, that it will cost power to run PCV from intake suction during WOT. Yeah, I got that, and you know that I knew it all along
09-15-2019 | 11:49 PM
#50
I want to apologize to you and everyone else involved in this thread, I'm an old school mechanic, I've been around it quite some time and people like him just are just trying to push buttons and it frustrates the hell out of me and I fell for his BS again. When I'm wrong I'll admit it but in this case I truly don't think I am.
I try to post what I have learned over the years and do so with an open mind, Some things are open to interpretation and there are no real true answers and I understand that.
I try to post what I have learned over the years and do so with an open mind, Some things are open to interpretation and there are no real true answers and I understand that.
During cruise/idle ideal crankcase suction is 2-4" Hg
During WOT crankcase pressure ideal range is 2-4" Hg
There you go now you don't need to be cluelessly searching for answers about how to setup the orifice and tubes of your PCV system so you can stop using the ridiculous cave-man vent
09-16-2019 | 12:12 AM
#51
the !@()*$ are you talking about no real answers. The manufacturer of every single OEM engine has had an answer for wet sump PCV system application, and its always the same range, I'll even post it again:
During cruise/idle ideal crankcase suction is 2-4" Hg
During WOT crankcase pressure ideal range is 2-4" Hg
There you go now you don't need to be cluelessly searching for answers about how to setup the orifice and tubes of your PCV system so you can stop using the ridiculous cave-man vent
During cruise/idle ideal crankcase suction is 2-4" Hg
During WOT crankcase pressure ideal range is 2-4" Hg
There you go now you don't need to be cluelessly searching for answers about how to setup the orifice and tubes of your PCV system so you can stop using the ridiculous cave-man vent
Originally Posted by kingtal0n;20147693[color=#222222
next,
Quote:
The Clean-side solution addresses that small amount of oil vapor that enters the intake air charge upstream of the throttle body during WOT operation when the intake manifold vacuum is not present.
Very professionally done solution there. Instead of simply using a breather, and a can to vent, they are doing it right the way, addressing the oil ingestion issue directly and maintaining the pcv system as OEM function intended to help control oil and keep oil inside the engine and pressure off the seals.]The Clean-side solution addresses that small amount of oil vapor that enters the intake air charge upstream of the throttle body during WOT operation when the intake manifold vacuum is not present.
Multiple people are telling you that you are wrong and why including a mod who I can only hope will ban you rather than just delete your nonsense....You really need help.
Also You keep glossing over the fact that those vapors being sucked into the combustion chamber are bad ...NOT GOOD! Why would you want to contaminate the combustion cycle on your performance engine?
it will cause detonation and reduced power and fuel economy, and in a performance engine, especially forced induction, this detonation is detrimental to power and the resulting knock retard is a negative tuners and owners should avoid, especially if the engine is run hard for extended periods such as road racing, drag racing, or aggressive driving period
09-16-2019 | 12:24 AM
#52