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Old Aug 27, 2004 | 11:23 AM
  #21  
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I was reading a mag that had the history of the vette and the main reason for the LT5 going down the hole after the ZR1 was because it was heavy. Only reason why they put that in the ZR1 instead of a big block is gas milage. They said they weighed about the same and the big block would have put out way more power for the money.
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Old Aug 27, 2004 | 12:04 PM
  #22  
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i remember reading somewhere that the DOHC 4.6 cobra motor and transmission weighed like 700-750lbs or something like that. figure about 150lbs for a t56....
ill keep the "low-tech" pushrod setup as well, my car's heavy enough already.

keeping on topic, damn gm for leaking this info and then waitin months to unveil it.
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Old Aug 27, 2004 | 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrisrokc
I was reading a mag that had the history of the vette and the main reason for the LT5 going down the hole after the ZR1 was because it was heavy. Only reason why they put that in the ZR1 instead of a big block is gas milage. They said they weighed about the same and the big block would have put out way more power for the money.
Actually (to my knowledge anyway) the biggest contributor to the LT5's demise was the cost/effort involved with making it OBDII-compliant.
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Old Aug 28, 2004 | 06:15 PM
  #24  
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This is a Copy Paste that I do everytime I see thi issue come up...wrote it like 3-4 years ago and it still seams to be relevant

Part 1
Originally posted by NivenHuH

....(snip)....Why isn't technology / effeciency accepted as a replacement for displacement?



BTW, last time I checked, not too many cars were "designed for drag strips"... They're designed for road use..
Technology is, but when a person says that a Small Displacement DOHC motor is more "technologically advanced" than a large displacement pushrod OHV motor they are actually showing a lack of understanding of the technology in question.



A Pushrod OHV motor can be and today often is just as technologically advanced a Variable valve timing DOHC small displacement turbo motor. Why do I say that?



1.) OHV, DOHC, Turbos, Superchargers etc all are technologies that have been around since the 1920s.



2.) Manufacturers choose a configuration based on design and purpose.



3.) Technological advancement is measured on total execution.



Case in point, Z06 vs. BMW M5. Both have V8s that make at or around 400 hp. BMW uses a DOHC 4.9 Liter V8. The Chevy uses a 5.7 Liter pushrod V8. At first glance one would think the Bimmer motor to be more “technologically advanced”, but is that so?

  • The Chevy motor makes more Horse Power and Torque.

  • The Chevy motor gets better Fuel Economy (19/28 vs. 13/21) (Largely a function of weight, but also because the LS6 is more efficient)

  • The Chevy motor has better emissions (ULEV vs. the BMW LEV)

  • The Chevy motor is dimensionally smaller

  • The Chevy motor is cheaper (you can buy one at the parts counter for $6K)

  • The Chevy motor is lighter (Check the Shipping weight)

  • The Chevy motor has fewer moving parts.

  • The Chevy motor contributes to a better Cg. (Shorter deck height from a tighter OHV package lowers the Cg)

  • The Chevy motor does a better job using less expensive parts




So What car do I think is more technologically advanced, M5 or Z06? M5 of course (I mean seriously you get 80% of the performance and it’s a 4 door!).



What Engine is more technologically advanced? The Chevy motor. It does it’s job better because it: creates more power, more efficiently while doing so with better fuel economy and emissions. It does all this using fewer parts, in a tighter package using less expensive materials at an overall lower overall costs.



That is the definition of “High Tech”



-Adam
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Old Aug 28, 2004 | 06:16 PM
  #25  
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Part 2
Originally posted by kbag

not really when you think about a 3.2 liter inline 6 with 343 hp and 5.7 liter v8 with 340hp. Also a 4.6 liter v8 with 400hp and a LS2 6.0 liter with 400hp. Seems to me that to equal the same amount of hp you have to have quite a bit more displacement and I feel that is a better indicator of how efficient an engine is. I do believe that the LS2 will get the same gas milage as the LS1 but let us not forget that GM uses the forced skip shift to get those numbers. I agree that the LS1, LS6, and LS2 are cheaper motors to produce. But I wonder why most auto manufactors have gone to the 3 or 4 valve engine. Maybe they are not as bright as GM.
There are many reasons for making a small displacement high hrosepower motor vs a large displacement high horsepower motor.



First off, efficiency. Hp/Liter is an argument reserved for Rice-Burners. Speaking of which my Rice Burner makes almost 200 hp /liter





Does that make my $8K sport bike more advanced than the BMW? I think not. The smaller the motor's moving parts the easier it becomes to make more power/Liter. By design it’s hard to make more hp/liter out of a M5 or LS V8 than it is to make it out of a M3 Inline 6.



The LS V8 series is more efficient than the BMW M5 V8 (I won't speak to the M3 since it's an Apples to Engagement Rings comparison...sorry, big event on the mind). But comparing the LS V8 to the M5, the LS is more efficient as it makes more power using less fuel with lower emissions. That's efficiency.



The reason GM does not use an OHC design on the Corvette is for the following reasons.



Packaging: OHC motors are much larger and heavier as the valve cover to deck height is much larger. This means an OHV motor can sit lower in the bay and takes up less room between the shock towers allowing the front suspension to sit closer in making for a narrower package. Additionally, less weight and lower deck height lowers the center of gravity of the car affording better handling.



Price: less of an issue on a BMW, more of an issue on a Chevrolet, an OHV design uses fewer moving parts that do not require near the level of precision of an OHC design. Fewer parts and less need for precision mean lower manufacturing cost.



Now the talk about power to displacement, anyone here would agree that the M3 motor is highly tuned and eeking another 100 hp out of the motor is about impossible without nitrous or a blower. Getting that same gain out of a LS V8 is very easy. There are stock displacement 5.7 Liter LS1/LS6 motors out there making 450 RWHP (530 crank HP) with modifications. (No, I doubt they pass emissions, but that's not the point). The point is by designing a large displacement motor with a lot of headroom you can use significantly cheaper and less durable parts. This reduces cost which allows you to put a high performance motor in a much cheaper car. Case in point the GTO and Camaro.



Technology. The idea that OHV is "less advanced" than "OHC" is not a valid statement. Both technologies are 80+ years old they are just simply different design executions given the compromises of packaging, cost and expected performance.



Why is the M3 an I6 and not a V8? Cost there as well. There is no V8 planned for the 3 series until the next generation. By launching the M3 as a Inline 6, 99% of the engineering work from a 330Ci to a M3 is already done. If they put a V8 in the M3, BMW would have to reengineer and test bell housings, accessory drives, charging and cooling requirements, etc etc that would get passed on to us, and we would be stuck with a $100K M3! When you also factor in the lower volume due to expense they would not be able to leverage the R&D cost over enough units and the business plan for the M3 fails.



If OHV is such a great solution, why doesn't BMW make an OHV large displacement motor? Answer, no heavy duty truck line. The Majority of the LS-series V8s that GM makes go into their light and heavy duty trucks so they are able to leverage that Corvette investment over many different models and further lower costs. The 4.4 Liter or 4.8 Liter X5 V8s would make sub-par heavy duty truck motors and BMW would have a hard time selling that to a general contractor. The Range Rover can afford the cost of a high-$$ lower output V8 as it's towing ability and ability to drive onto a construction site are not as much of a factor to a Range Rover buyer as they are to a Chevy Ford truck buyer.



Why would you want a small displacement OHC design over a OHV design? At the same displacement, a 4 valve per cylinder motor has the ability to make more power than a 2 valve per cylinder design. Displacement is the limiting factor here. GM designs’ it’s V8s to go in trucks, BMW designs their V8s to go into cars. As such, BMW is more concerned with the length of the motor more so than GM. It’s easy to fit a longer motor in a long nose Corvette, GTO or Firebird. It’s hard to do the same in a shorter nose 5 series. Because of that Bore-spacing becomes very important. IF you make the bore too large then you either have to dig into the cooling jackets or lengthen the motor to accommodate. Additionally you have to worry about crowding the combustion chamber creating combustion inefficiencies. The M3 inline motor suffers doubly from this since its cylinders are in a line. (That is a V-6 is half the length of an Inline 6, but much wider and therefore creates other packaging problems). So since BMW is more concerned about packaging their V8s into a shorter hood, they have to run a smaller displacement motor.



But I said above that OHV motors are more compact than OHC motors? Yes I did, at the same displacement a pushrod motor is smaller in height and top-width. A larger displacement is larger in length, and to a lesser degree width, assuming the bore centers have changed. Thus the M5 motor is much larger than the LS6 motor due to its huge plenum and large complicated heads.



Can’t you increase the stroke of a motor to compensate? Yes, but bore center placement dictates largest bore, and the stroke/bore ratio dictates power curve shape. If you get to long of a stroke you hit problems with thrust angle, wrist pin height etc, so you can only go so far before you need to look at other ways to increase bore to compensate.
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Old Aug 29, 2004 | 02:51 PM
  #26  
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Dittos. Calculating efficiency based on hp per cubic inch is the wrong equation. It is rather power (understood as the fatness of the torque curve over the entire rev range) vs. weight, manufacturing complexity and cost, fuel efficiency, serviceablity, and packageability. GM has it down with the LSx series of V8's like nobody else - hi-tech in the true sense of the term - that's why we are on this board.
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Old Aug 29, 2004 | 09:01 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
That picture is of a truck motor, but I suspect the LS7 will look similar...
I was about to say the same thing- diesel, right?
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Old Aug 31, 2004 | 09:46 AM
  #28  
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i think they should ditch all this valved stuff all together and work on getting emissions good for 2 stroke
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Old Aug 31, 2004 | 06:07 PM
  #29  
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Well, Thanks everyone for the replies. Is it on paper that these heads are going to be used or not. Anyone for certain?????
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Old Aug 31, 2004 | 09:20 PM
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The Chevy motor has fewer moving parts.

I have come to the conclusion that this is what many people use to determine how technologically advanced an engine is.

Just because an engine has more moving parts does not mean it is more technologically advanced
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Old Sep 1, 2004 | 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jusTAnother
The Chevy motor has fewer moving parts.

I have come to the conclusion that this is what many people use to determine how technologically advanced an engine is.

Just because an engine has more moving parts does not mean it is more technologically advanced
Yeah, in fact a strong argument could be made that a truly more advanced engine would use FEWER moving parts
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Old Sep 1, 2004 | 08:13 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Fulton 1
Yeah, in fact a strong argument could be made that a truly more advanced engine would use FEWER moving parts
a wankle??
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Old Sep 1, 2004 | 05:45 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Fulton 1
Its not that GM can't do DOHC (let's see, LT5, Northstar, Aurora, Quad4, 3.4L V6, etc). Its that they already have a lot invested in the LS1 architecture and the fact that the 3V design can produce a claimed 10-15% more hp than 2V while keeping the same smaller, lighter, and generally less complex packaging that is such a big advantage of the pushrod design.

LS7 is rumored to be in the neighborhood of 500hp/500tq, which would make it the highest factory-rated hp engine that GM's ever used in a production car.

Wouldn't you rather see GM building a stout pushrod motor with this kind of factory hp, than a "high-tech" DOHC wheezer that needs a blower just to be viable on the street (cough, cough 4.6L)?
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Old Sep 2, 2004 | 10:05 PM
  #34  
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The 3 valve 500/500 was last i heard also and yes its going in the Vette. They have a V10 version going in the HD trucks. The same motor just with 2 extra cylinders.
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Old Sep 3, 2004 | 04:12 PM
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LS7 Heads = Casting Number 8452.
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Old Sep 3, 2004 | 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RatherSideways
a wankle??
Well, yeah, in theory. The Wankel dates back to, what, the 1920's? I guess that could be construed as more advanced.

I just get a kick out of the fact that the "know-it-alls" (i.e. magazines) like to assign the "technologically advanced" moniker to anything new and usually with more moving parts. IMO, if its truly more advanced then it will be as simple or (preferrably simpler) while acheiving better performance. Looks to me that the LSX series of engines do that without question. Who really cares HOW its done - be it pushrods, or valves, or some hocus pocus?
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