Dope

iTrader: (2)

If I'm reading this correct, you're looking for about 550rwhp. The 2 higher end motors you listed are overkill for this. Solid roller 434 or 443 will make WAY more than 550rwhp if done right. Well over 600rwhp I'd say too.

Hell, realize that the nastiest solid roller stock displacement (~346ci) motors have made well over 500rwhp. I think 520rwhp from Futura Motorsports?

I think a solid roller 402 would do ya fine. No sleeve worries, and enough cubes to get the job done with a solid roller and your rev limit of 7500.

Or just wait, and pick up and LS7, throw a cam in it and make 550rwhp too. That engine is already set up the way you want, it seems - even has dry sump. Given the fact that it will probably cost in the really low teens, and be 95% ready to go, it's probably a performance bargain.

Love Ultimas. Someday I'll build one.


Dope

Builder

Thanks, Dope. Yeah, that LS7 is going to be sweet. From what it sounds like, making that into a solid roller with a cam...maybe some porting, should put it well into the high 500 range. We'll have to see what my timeframe is. That might work out, if GM releases the crate.

I have been in contact with the PR department at GM. They are saying the crate will be out with the car in August. If so, I am all over it!

Otherwise, it's probably going to be a 402 or bigger sleeved. Most engine builders I have talked to are a little apprehensive of the rpm with a stroker. Maybe a sleeved block with a forged 3.622 strokeis safer (less rod angle and piston acceleration).

After all, this can't be an engine I rebuild every 5k miles. Thanks for the input. BTW, have you owned a sleeved block?

DavidNJ

I don't understand your car. As a street car, the ARE dry sump would interfer with the A/C. And a rock in the belt would kill the oil pressure and presumably the engine.

A strong cam, some head work, headers, etc. On an LS7 would probably meet your goals on an LS7 for the least cost. If building on another base, an Austrailan company has a 3-stage dry sump using a stock mounted pump.

You could also build an all aluminum SBC with Areo 4-valve heads to hit those number for fewer $$$.

Builder

Not sure why because I have never owned one, but it's my understanding that dry-sump systems are very dependable. In fact, some would say more so than internal. The location won't be an issue and it will probably have a separate belt. As far as rocks doing damage, this car is not for the Baja 1000, hill-climbs, or the Rubicon Trail, so I am not too concerned about rocks.

For the $$$, ARE has an excellent package. They are race-tested on LSx race engines in the most prominent series events. However, I am always open to considering other options, as I have not purchased the engine yet.

LS7 - It's a waiting game:
IF the engine is available, and
IF the price is right, and
IF they are actually available, and
IF my car isn't ready before the availability date...
I could end up with one.
Sweet!

On the other hand, it might be possible to make a more suitable package with a 402(+) ci.

IIRC, I spoke with someone at Aero a few months ago. I seem to recall that the heads were between $6-7k? Regardless, I would need to see a dozen folks that have run with those heads for many, many thousands of miles before I would consider them.

DavidNJ, do you have any experience with sleeved blocks? I am less concerned about dependability than when I started this thread. I have receivd a number of PMs and posts here that are starting to make be believe in them.

Thanks,

Dope

iTrader: (2)

No, I have not owned a sleeved block. Heard enough horror stories to stay away

My plans going to be for an LS7 swap in a year or two if they are cheap enough. If not, 402 LS2.

Dope

hugger427

iTrader: (9)

After nearly two years of "challenges" going to a 427 displacement here are a couple suggestions...

First, go with a very reputable engine builder. Most of these guy don't advertise 'cause they don't need to. Do your research and NO NOT buy into the internet hype.

Second...after two MTI sleeved engines dropped at initial startup. I went with a C5-R block. (However, that engine is being completely rebuilt by another shop due to poor MTI workmanship issues.) I would never consider a sleeved application (wet or dry). Why spend big bucks on a performance engine and always wonder if the sleeve is holding up.

Good luck!!!

Builder

I understand. Thanks for the info...and good luck with your install.

Builder

Thanks! LOL, yes...Internet hype. Well, it sounds like you won't be buying your next block sleeved...from anyone! That would be enough to put me off. Sounds like you have some very good reasons.

The next poll I am going to take, of the engine builders, is to see if any of them have a 100 percent success rate with sleeved blocks. I will post my findings...

DavidNJ

LS7 availability should be before the end of the year, and maybe as soon as August. MSRP is $15k (from Dave Hill) so the street price should be under $12k. LS7 intakes, with their new port shape, should outflow any cathedral shaped ports.

Racing dry sumps (oval track) do loose their belts every now and then. I believe most dry sump street cars (Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, LS7) have their pumps internal).

Builder

Regarding the LS7, yes, that seems to be the accepted value and delivery schedule.

LS7 pump is crank-mounted externally. Don't know about the others. I don't have first-hand experience with dry-sumps. But, my guess is that a very high percentage of racecars are dry-sump. I am sure it happens, but I just don't hear of cars that DNF due to a dry-sump belt coming off, or pump failures.

Killer_Bluebird

iTrader: (23)

$29,436.78 american dollars is not cheap for a rolling chasis with no interior, engine or Transmision. (I don't think that even includes suspension) But i would love to have the money to put one of them together, I guess considering that is is a Street legal Prototype class car and that it will be faster and cost less than a viper, it is pretty cheap. I'm personally waiting on a GTM. The new mold looks wicked and it is going to cost a lot less than Ultima.



Throw in a 408 LS2, Porche Transaxle, Suspension components and the Cost for the Chasis and you have a 2500 give or take Street monster for about $40,000 to $50,000.

Builder, Nice looking car, I'm a bit of a book worm and though I don't post much I read a lot. I personally think that If you are going for dependability I would stay with a 408' with 225cc AFR heads and a good cam, that should get you over 550rwhp. The issue if you can call it that is that, wil be that the torque will be around 480-500 to the wheels. But that will make a very reliable combo (as reliable as built engines get ) otherwise if reliability is a must CR5 is your number or wait to see how the LS7 fares.

Builder

Well, it's actually a little more than that. And, you still have to put it together (i.e. it's not a true roller). However, the Ultima is probably going to be lighter than the GTM. And, although Spartan by design, this is really a street-legal racecar with the goal of superior power-to-weight and the ability to put it to the pavement through the corners...the ultimate street-legal track-day car. The GTM is a cool setup. I have been watching that for a while, too.

I agree that the iron block is an excellent option, but I am definitely going aluminum...even if I have to use an EFI Dart SBC. My guess is that the LS7 will arrive in time. It looks like I don't NEED the engine until Sept/Oct.

I am not finished with my sleeve research. But, if the result is a decision against sleeves, I will go with a dry-sump, solid roller, all-forged LS2 and a stock-length stroke to turn 7,500 rpm with confidence. All that, if the LS7 is not available. If it is, wham-bam-thank-you-GM. I can make that a solid roller, cam it, and get some head work done (if needed).

Honestly, I am not sure I can handle much more than 500 rwhp in a 2,200# track car! A 3,600# car would have to have 818 rwhp to have the same ratio. I never thought I would say it, but that's bordering on too much (for me) in a street/track car.

oodahss

If its to much for you then you can let me drive it for ya!

jrp

iTrader: (16)

all you need to know about sleved blocks

Steve Demirjian President

Race Engine Development

Oceanside, Ca.

760-630-0450

race-engine-development@***.net

Builder

There's always one in the crowd, isn't there. The right seat is as close as you would get my friend. Thanks, Jerami. I appreciate the contact info. I have their page bookmarked and have reviewed it a couple of times. Correct me if I am wrong. Steve is one of the patent co-owners, and as such, has a vested interest in selling sleeves. Therefore, his opinion might be a little biased towards the sleeved system.

However, Steve may be able to shed some light on the instances of "dropped sleeves" and the conditions under which they occur, so I will definitely have a conversation with him. I just want to make sure I have a basic understanding of the process and problems before that call.

RX-Ben

iTrader: (7)

I think what Jerami is saying is that if you want it done right and don't want to think about it again, have Steve sleeve the block.

I'm saving my pennies for a GTM, hopefully it'll be well into production (and available to all) by the time I get out of law school in 3 years. The Ultima would be great as well.
The GTM will be "limited" by the C5 suspension, but it works really really well and parts are widely available at good prices.

Ben

speedracer5532

iTrader: (8)

I had Mikey at Rapid Motorsports build me a LS2 402 and I love it. Running a LS2 402 you don't have to mess with resleeving it, just put a 4 inch crank in the LS2 block. I was worried about resleeving a block so that is why I went the 402 route. I would think that is your best option without going to a C5R block or waiting until the LS7 block is out.

Builder

See that? There's that attorney's deductive reasoning kicking in. Well, I can appreciate that. None-the-less, I still have to:

A) be prepared to speak intelligently with Steve
B) finish my due dilignence chatting with owners that have good, and not-so-good, experiences
C) consider the timeframe and the LS7 availability

If I were going to place an order next week, I would be on the phone to Steve today. But, I don't want to get too lathered up just yet. It's hard to describe how difficult it is to rein myself in with this project! I think I am going nuts waiting for it. It will be over two years that I have been drooling over this car by the time it's ready for the road.

The car is about three to four weeks from shipping, then four weeks from FOB factory to get here (ocean freight). Who knows how long to clear customs (they say one to two weeks). Then, I have to assemble it to the point it's ready for the engine, which is probably two months (+).

All in, I am looking at Sept/Oct before the engine is required. I will have decided who will be providing what by the time I turn the first bolt...because it's head-burried building at that point. I will place the order 30 days prior to needing it, but I want to have my options nailed down well before then. One thing I have learned in my years of building stuff; planning and scheduling is 80 percent of the work.It's possible that the GTM will be C6 or 7-based in three years. Who knows? Cars are evolving like computers. I am sure you will love the GTM. It should be very competitive on the track and quite the looker, too.

So, has anyone out there purchased a sleeved block from Steve? If so, please tell me about your experience and setup.

Builder

Speed, that's sound advice. Tell me a little more about your setup, if you would. Those are some great numbers in your sig. Through what drivetrain did you dyno? What C/R and octane do you get at the pump? Are you running boost, juice, or N/A for those numbers? To what RPM are you turning that mill? Do you have any experience with solid roller and/or dry-sump systems?

Thanks,

mikey

iTrader: (6)

I've run two sleeved blocks in my 9 second race car. First one grenaded on a 300 shot of nitrous. Never had any dropped sleeve issues but didn't have all that many passes on it before it blew. The present motor just started to use coolant last season. It probably as 250 total passes on it and quite a few dyno runs. Would I re-sleeve again? No. Now knowing what I do about the LS2 block, I would opt for a solid roller 402. The LS2 is a very durable platform from which to work. I managed 553 rwhp from a 402 on pump gas and a hyd roller. Several others in the 520+ area. 600 rwhp is very possible with more compression and a larger cam. No one has stepped up yet looking for such an animal. I would also use the ARE dry sump with your GTR. Good stuff.