2008 Superchargerd Z06?
07-17-2005, 09:48 AM
#22
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n20junkie,
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
Id almost speculate that this is a ploy by GM to break up the UAW, which has them by the *****. Look around the rest of major industry, the successful ones do not have unions. Check out the airlines, the profitable ones (southwest, jet blue) no union, and CEO and executive levels always have higher bonsuses and salaries than the lay person, i bet they work more hours to
ed
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
Id almost speculate that this is a ploy by GM to break up the UAW, which has them by the *****. Look around the rest of major industry, the successful ones do not have unions. Check out the airlines, the profitable ones (southwest, jet blue) no union, and CEO and executive levels always have higher bonsuses and salaries than the lay person, i bet they work more hours to
ed
07-20-2005, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 69firebird
n20junkie,
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
first of all, uaw workers are not overpaid for what they do... they are paid well, and should be. they are well in middleclass territory, 40-60k per year... that is nothing for someone trying to support a family. 40-60k per year has you, your wife and 3 kids living..... but thats about it.
second, outsourcing does save the companies billions, but it costs the united states and its population even more. with middleclass jobs being taken away form the hard working americans, they are forced to find other lower paying work... but wait, there are no jobs now, they all have been sent to mexico and china... ok go to a McDonalds for a job to make enough money to support your family... wait a second... now that everyone dont have any money, they cant afford to go out to eat as much.... "no McDonalds jobs open at the moment sir, but well give you a call when something opens up.".. ok now that noone has any money, who is going to buy these cars that they are saving soooo much money on by outsourcing?
outsourcing is crippleing the american dream.
07-20-2005, 04:24 PM
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Well,
I still feel that UAW workers are over paid that not aside,
I totally agree with you, outsourcing is killing the american dream, personally I could care less about the american dream, it is killing the american workforce. That is something that is more important.
If the government would either offer tax breaks for companies that stay in the US, or penalize companies for going over seas that would make it alot better. However prices on everything would go up.
Inflation is already a hair over 3%, factor that in with raises that are on the decline, the normal american could not afford to live if there were not less expensive outlets for domestic goods. Look at walmart, they have become the largest retail chain in the world by selling mexican and chinese goods to AMERICANS, for pennies on the dollar of what similiar american made products would be.
I hate the fact that jobs are leaving the US, however there must be a happy medium, if every job stays in america then consumer goods are going to rise to a price point most dont want and cant afford. Everything works in a cycle, and all aspect of the economy are needed to balance.
point is there are upsides to out sourcing. American companies do not want to pay their employes well any more, esecially when they can get labor that is willing to work twice as hard for half the cost.
the bad part is we have done it to ourselves, we have gotten lazy, and self interested. you get mad at companies for going to other companies, but id be wiling to bet in your everyday shopping you dont buy american, you buy off of price point like everyone else. the companies are doing the same, and until all of us are willing to buy american and american only its going to keep getting worse
I still feel that UAW workers are over paid that not aside,
I totally agree with you, outsourcing is killing the american dream, personally I could care less about the american dream, it is killing the american workforce. That is something that is more important.
If the government would either offer tax breaks for companies that stay in the US, or penalize companies for going over seas that would make it alot better. However prices on everything would go up.
Inflation is already a hair over 3%, factor that in with raises that are on the decline, the normal american could not afford to live if there were not less expensive outlets for domestic goods. Look at walmart, they have become the largest retail chain in the world by selling mexican and chinese goods to AMERICANS, for pennies on the dollar of what similiar american made products would be.
I hate the fact that jobs are leaving the US, however there must be a happy medium, if every job stays in america then consumer goods are going to rise to a price point most dont want and cant afford. Everything works in a cycle, and all aspect of the economy are needed to balance.
point is there are upsides to out sourcing. American companies do not want to pay their employes well any more, esecially when they can get labor that is willing to work twice as hard for half the cost.
the bad part is we have done it to ourselves, we have gotten lazy, and self interested. you get mad at companies for going to other companies, but id be wiling to bet in your everyday shopping you dont buy american, you buy off of price point like everyone else. the companies are doing the same, and until all of us are willing to buy american and american only its going to keep getting worse
07-20-2005, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 69firebird
n20junkie,
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
Id almost speculate that this is a ploy by GM to break up the UAW, which has them by the *****. Look around the rest of major industry, the successful ones do not have unions. Check out the airlines, the profitable ones (southwest, jet blue) no union, and CEO and executive levels always have higher bonsuses and salaries than the lay person, i bet they work more hours to
ed
First of all, I know several UAW workers and they are way overpaid for what they do.
You said there wouldnt be a GM production plant in the US if it wernt for you, then who could afford their product. EVERYBODY COULD IS THE ANSWER. outsourcing like that is saving companies billions on production, and id specualte that over seas people would care about thir job, and not have a UAW to ensure they were employed, QUALITY certainly wouldnt go down
Id almost speculate that this is a ploy by GM to break up the UAW, which has them by the *****. Look around the rest of major industry, the successful ones do not have unions. Check out the airlines, the profitable ones (southwest, jet blue) no union, and CEO and executive levels always have higher bonsuses and salaries than the lay person, i bet they work more hours to
ed
You say its better to send the jobs overseas because the labor is cheaper and they work twice as hard. Well how could you afford anything because Iam sure your job could be done overseas cheaper also and so could everybody elses in this country except the goverments. And sometimes that could be done better also. So lets see if every company in the US went overseas for the cheaper labor who would employ the people here?
You dont get it you must think every UAW member goes to work drunk and sits around and does nothing all day or when they do move the put **** togther half ***. If thats the case why has the quality of US produced cars and trucks went up and in some cases surpassed japanese and european car manufacturs? Yes it went way down in the 70's and 80's but its comeing back. Also why is it that any car or truck that made in the US and mexico the one made in the US has always had better quailty? Yes they work twice as hard as we do thats because they have to, they dont get all of the equipment we do to make the jobs easier. Thats because the companies dont have to worrie about healthcare or disability. If a employe gets hurt on the job due to the company they simply lose there job and the company hires another one for less $. Lets give it up for that great company!
I can understand the companys point of view, If I was the boss of a company and I could make X amount of dollars if I stayed in the US or I could double that If I moved to mexico and sold my product to the US. I would have to think about it. But if I was going to lose alot of my clientel because most wouldnt beable to afford my product because they no longer have a job, why would I want to? Lets say I can sell a car for $20,000 if I build it the US it cost me $15,000 to make it. Now if I move to mexico I can build it for $10,000 and still sell it for $20,000 I just doubled my profit. But at the same time I only can sell this car to half the people I could before because they cant afford it now that I put them out of a job. I will make the same amount of $ per year but make half of the cars. I didnt pick up any sales in mexico when I moved because I dont pay the workers enough to buy a car and I also had the expence of moveing my company and all of the equipment so for the first couple of years I might lose $.
Why would I move whats the point? It may not be this simple but it cant be much harder.
07-20-2005, 10:55 PM
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actually im neither,
I dont work for salary, nor do i work at 7/11
I admitted in the other post that I do see your point, I was more trying to show the other side of the coin as well.
I am as red blooded as you are, I think every call center in India, with guys named bob should be shut down. THe low level low paying jobs that are being moved out of hte country are worse than any high level jobs being moved. As WE need those entry level jobs to get our feet in the door at most companies. This outsourcing is horrible.
As far as the UAW making too much, some not all of you guys are overpaid. One of my very good friends fathers worked for GM putting parts in boxes, he didnt drink beer, but he said most nights he didnt have anything to do, and he made a TON of cash.
again this is most likely the exception not the rule.
Your analysis of the situation on moving over seas is way over simplified, as a car that retails for 20k would need to be made for 6k just to afford the tarrifs bringing it back into the country.
I think what I was saying may have been taken the wrong way, as I feel we should keep each and every single job we can in this country. Our government sends money to other countries that are starving, while we have people in this country starving. You should take care of your backyward, before you take care of your neighbors front yard, know what I mean.
make any better sense. Id imangine that you and I are alot more alike that we realize from the sound of it
ed
I dont work for salary, nor do i work at 7/11
I admitted in the other post that I do see your point, I was more trying to show the other side of the coin as well.
I am as red blooded as you are, I think every call center in India, with guys named bob should be shut down. THe low level low paying jobs that are being moved out of hte country are worse than any high level jobs being moved. As WE need those entry level jobs to get our feet in the door at most companies. This outsourcing is horrible.
As far as the UAW making too much, some not all of you guys are overpaid. One of my very good friends fathers worked for GM putting parts in boxes, he didnt drink beer, but he said most nights he didnt have anything to do, and he made a TON of cash.
again this is most likely the exception not the rule.
Your analysis of the situation on moving over seas is way over simplified, as a car that retails for 20k would need to be made for 6k just to afford the tarrifs bringing it back into the country.
I think what I was saying may have been taken the wrong way, as I feel we should keep each and every single job we can in this country. Our government sends money to other countries that are starving, while we have people in this country starving. You should take care of your backyward, before you take care of your neighbors front yard, know what I mean.
make any better sense. Id imangine that you and I are alot more alike that we realize from the sound of it
ed
07-21-2005, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 69firebird
Well,
point is there are upsides to out sourcing. American companies do not want to pay their employes well any more, esecially when they can get labor that is willing to work twice as hard for half the cost.
point is there are upsides to out sourcing. American companies do not want to pay their employes well any more, esecially when they can get labor that is willing to work twice as hard for half the cost.
the real bad thing is china's workforce is made up of mostly these $.50 an hour workers. that means we cant export our goods to them because they cant afford to buy them.
you are right in saying something needs to be done.... and fast.
im proud of the corvette... great american car.
07-21-2005, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Brains
They might as well, they can't get **** right anywhere else 
I mean, c'mon -- who needs another Pontivroletuicklsmobile MaliPrixAmPala?
I mean, c'mon -- who needs another Pontivroletuicklsmobile MaliPrixAmPala?You nailed it on the head with that statement
07-21-2005, 01:58 PM
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69firebird Sorry if I sounded like an *** but I hear people around me that dont work for GM tell everybody else that we suck and never do anything while we're at work. They are just upset they cant get hired in. Most of the ones that are really bad are the ones that sit around and drink and get high all day, then complain that they dont have any $ or cant get a job.
I know the car deal was oversimplafied but you got my point. I am not saying that every UAW worker bust their *** everyday for a dollar but its not as easy as some people think it is.
Take it easy and I'll see you around the board, I dont post much just trying to find as much info as I can on everthing.
I know the car deal was oversimplafied but you got my point. I am not saying that every UAW worker bust their *** everyday for a dollar but its not as easy as some people think it is.
Take it easy and I'll see you around the board, I dont post much just trying to find as much info as I can on everthing.
08-08-2005, 12:59 PM
#32
Originally Posted by n2ojunkie
Sorry UAW member here. How do you figure? I know our wages are high and we have good benifits but we get $175 a year in profit shareing and every one of the CEO's get millions. Then they turn around and say that there lossing money? It's all over the news that GM has billions in reserves yet there claiming there poor. And also if its all the UAW's fault why do we have one sailary person for every 10 hourly? Lets look where the value added is and where the non value added is. My brother is salary at one of the GM plants here in Mi and I am hourly. I would hate to see him lose his job, or anybody for that matter, but come on look a the whole picture. All you here is how good we have it, and I will agree, but salary has it pretty good to. I dont always agree with the UAW on some of there in plant decissions and they help alot of people keep there jobs that they shouldnt. But if it wasnt for the UAW I dont think there would be a GM plant in the US right now. It would eather be in mexico or china. Then who could afford there products?
Sorry I have never been big on the praising the UAW but ITS NOT ALWAYS THE UAW"s FAULT!
Sorry I have never been big on the praising the UAW but ITS NOT ALWAYS THE UAW"s FAULT!
but from an outside looking in perspective. the UAW looks greedy by not wanting to pay more than a couple of cents towards your health care benefits. I think that's GM's main huge expense now I heard like 3-5k tagged onto a car b/c Union basically gets free insurance. I pay $190 every two weeks and I'm in HEALTHCARE. The time of the union is approaching an end. I'm not trying to bag on you guys, but when a person a masters degree is earning less per year than a UAW high school educated guy, there's something amiss.
08-08-2005, 10:21 PM
#35
Originally Posted by CoronaL
I would feel similar in your shoes too
but from an outside looking in perspective. the UAW looks greedy by not wanting to pay more than a couple of cents towards your health care benefits. I think that's GM's main huge expense now I heard like 3-5k tagged onto a car b/c Union basically gets free insurance. I pay $190 every two weeks and I'm in HEALTHCARE. The time of the union is approaching an end. I'm not trying to bag on you guys, but when a person a masters degree is earning less per year than a UAW high school educated guy, there's something amiss.
but from an outside looking in perspective. the UAW looks greedy by not wanting to pay more than a couple of cents towards your health care benefits. I think that's GM's main huge expense now I heard like 3-5k tagged onto a car b/c Union basically gets free insurance. I pay $190 every two weeks and I'm in HEALTHCARE. The time of the union is approaching an end. I'm not trying to bag on you guys, but when a person a masters degree is earning less per year than a UAW high school educated guy, there's something amiss.
When you are on the outside looking in, maybe you should check your facts, before posting. Do you think the CEO's pay for their insurance ? How about their own car insurance ? Spouses car insurance ? Life insurance policys ? Nope, the company pays for it all, plus bonuses and more.
If you are taking it in the *** on your health insurance, does it make it better if your buddy is too ? I guess if your car gets stolen, you hope your neighbors does too ? Dont seem right does it ? How about just saying your health care policy at work sucks and your company is sticking it to you. Why does everyone feel if they are taking the shaft, everyone else has too also ?
Why is Ford doing OK ? Same stupid uneducated UAW workers there, making the same $$$, doing the same thing. Chrysler/ Dodge seems to be doing OK. GM management has driven this company into the hole, not the UAW workers pay or benefits. Seems you get pissed when stupid high school graduates find a way to make close to what a college grad does.....too bad, take your masters and shove it. When you ****, do you turn on the exhaust fan ? No, because it probably smells like roses, because your better then everyone else. You probably put both of your shoes on at the same time, just to prove it to yourself. Unions built most of the great things you see in this country, corporations tear them down.
The more American jobs that are killed by greedy CEO's for bonuses, diminishes the amount of money people spend in America.......I dont see the good in that. You being in health care is a good field to work in......but what happens when no one has insurance to pay the bills that pay your salary ?? We all lose.
08-08-2005, 11:08 PM
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Yeah but anyway about that Vette it seems to sound pretty bad ***. Its nice to see GM stepping up, now if they can get a few more fast rides in production perhaps a Chevelle or a Camaro return I'll shut up. Of course I must be dreaming. 
08-09-2005, 10:36 PM
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We were in Bowling Green, KY for LS1Tech. We were treated to a private tour of the plant, it was confirmed that there was indeed a developmental Z in the works with the HP your talking about. 
08-10-2005, 01:07 PM
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So many bases to cover in this topic....
1. CEO Bonuses.... To attact good quality CEO's, and to have some sort of continuity in management it is necessary for companies to pay big bonuses as part of the compensation plan for CEOs because the Feds put a limit on salary. Now you may argure that the CEO's are not quality.... thats the fault of the Company board of directors. It even more necessary in a big company like GM that needs a drastic change to turn the company around.... who wants to be paid little to try and revive a sinking ship?
2. UAW .... Now I am not going to say the the UAW is the devil and sinking anyone, nore am I going to say that they aren't a problem. Unions are a necessary evil to protect good 'ol American workers. They need good benefits and good pay to survive in our country, and the UAW ensures that.
This comes at a high cost to us though. Between the big three, the union causes them to tack on an roughly additional $1500 per vehicle to make up for it. Is this a bad cost? To me no....because we are protecting americans and ensuring that through the companies they work for that I as a tax payer dont have to make up for the short falls of their pension system.
Why do people bitch about this cost? Well because the companies that GM competes with are generally foreign and legacy costs are things they dont have to deal with. Japan and German companies for instance.... they are from socialist states. They don't have to offer a large number of their employees any kind of pension plan because their governments pick up those costs. How can any american company compete with that? You may ask... well Toyota, etc etc etc... they have alot of stateside factories. Yes this is true.... but less than 10% of the stateside employees are unionized, and they pursure pension plans by other means. Toyota offers good benefits, Profit sharing plans, and a 401k. They offer just enough so that the workers dont feel they need to unionize. Because of this, and the fact that most of the workers and overhead are overseas for these companies.... a rough average of 2-$300 is added to the cost of each their cars sold in the US. US companies cant compete with that.
does the union have it's downsides? Yes it does. Remember that protection for the american workers I wrote about? Well its a double edged sword for us consumers. UAW contracts are changing now, but historically the big three would have to guaranee x many of workers jobs for x many years. If you are at the top of your game selling cars like crazy then its a win-win situation. If you hit a sales slump, and you are way over capacity, over stocked, as a company you do not have the ability to reduce your production capacity, which drives your profits and revenue down even further. These sorts of things have changed in the recent years... and the big three are winning some battles when it comes to this subject, allowing them to lean up and bring their production costs closer to the competition. This is where the negative stereotypes of a UAW worker typically stems from. Because in many cases... the manufacturer can still save some money by closing the plants, but they still have to pay their workers.... they only save money on the other variable costs, such as materials, and what not.
3. The solution? Well this is what this thread has evolved into. Cutting UAW benefits, firing employees, may help cut costs... as well as cutting CEO and executive compensation packages. Those dont fix the real problem.... GMs inability to sell the cars that they do have. Right now their truck line is in danger because of the recent foriegn invasion..... and its all that keeps them afloat.
What do they need to do? Make cars that people want to buy, and bring their car lineup in line by downsizing, and getting rid of overlapping models. This is something that I see lutz doing, and I am happy for it. Make pontiac the excitement brand.. give them the hot roadster, the hot midsized sedan.. etc etc.... make chevy the cost effective brand, with the bulk of GM sales as well as GMs flagship model... the Vette. Make Caddy the sport luxury brand. Make Saturn the foriegn compact sedan fighting brand it was supposed to be. They need to rewrite the mission for each of it's brands and give them the lattitude they need to make vehicles to fit in that mission, and not hold their hands behind their back and make them use another brands vehicle, repackaged.
Ford and Chrysler do well cause they have their car lineup straightened out. Chrysler dumped plymouth..now they need less overlap between dodge and chrysler., and Ford went through this in the 80's / 90's.
1. CEO Bonuses.... To attact good quality CEO's, and to have some sort of continuity in management it is necessary for companies to pay big bonuses as part of the compensation plan for CEOs because the Feds put a limit on salary. Now you may argure that the CEO's are not quality.... thats the fault of the Company board of directors. It even more necessary in a big company like GM that needs a drastic change to turn the company around.... who wants to be paid little to try and revive a sinking ship?
2. UAW .... Now I am not going to say the the UAW is the devil and sinking anyone, nore am I going to say that they aren't a problem. Unions are a necessary evil to protect good 'ol American workers. They need good benefits and good pay to survive in our country, and the UAW ensures that.
This comes at a high cost to us though. Between the big three, the union causes them to tack on an roughly additional $1500 per vehicle to make up for it. Is this a bad cost? To me no....because we are protecting americans and ensuring that through the companies they work for that I as a tax payer dont have to make up for the short falls of their pension system.
Why do people bitch about this cost? Well because the companies that GM competes with are generally foreign and legacy costs are things they dont have to deal with. Japan and German companies for instance.... they are from socialist states. They don't have to offer a large number of their employees any kind of pension plan because their governments pick up those costs. How can any american company compete with that? You may ask... well Toyota, etc etc etc... they have alot of stateside factories. Yes this is true.... but less than 10% of the stateside employees are unionized, and they pursure pension plans by other means. Toyota offers good benefits, Profit sharing plans, and a 401k. They offer just enough so that the workers dont feel they need to unionize. Because of this, and the fact that most of the workers and overhead are overseas for these companies.... a rough average of 2-$300 is added to the cost of each their cars sold in the US. US companies cant compete with that.
does the union have it's downsides? Yes it does. Remember that protection for the american workers I wrote about? Well its a double edged sword for us consumers. UAW contracts are changing now, but historically the big three would have to guaranee x many of workers jobs for x many years. If you are at the top of your game selling cars like crazy then its a win-win situation. If you hit a sales slump, and you are way over capacity, over stocked, as a company you do not have the ability to reduce your production capacity, which drives your profits and revenue down even further. These sorts of things have changed in the recent years... and the big three are winning some battles when it comes to this subject, allowing them to lean up and bring their production costs closer to the competition. This is where the negative stereotypes of a UAW worker typically stems from. Because in many cases... the manufacturer can still save some money by closing the plants, but they still have to pay their workers.... they only save money on the other variable costs, such as materials, and what not.
3. The solution? Well this is what this thread has evolved into. Cutting UAW benefits, firing employees, may help cut costs... as well as cutting CEO and executive compensation packages. Those dont fix the real problem.... GMs inability to sell the cars that they do have. Right now their truck line is in danger because of the recent foriegn invasion..... and its all that keeps them afloat.
What do they need to do? Make cars that people want to buy, and bring their car lineup in line by downsizing, and getting rid of overlapping models. This is something that I see lutz doing, and I am happy for it. Make pontiac the excitement brand.. give them the hot roadster, the hot midsized sedan.. etc etc.... make chevy the cost effective brand, with the bulk of GM sales as well as GMs flagship model... the Vette. Make Caddy the sport luxury brand. Make Saturn the foriegn compact sedan fighting brand it was supposed to be. They need to rewrite the mission for each of it's brands and give them the lattitude they need to make vehicles to fit in that mission, and not hold their hands behind their back and make them use another brands vehicle, repackaged.
Ford and Chrysler do well cause they have their car lineup straightened out. Chrysler dumped plymouth..now they need less overlap between dodge and chrysler., and Ford went through this in the 80's / 90's.