700hp n/a...how can it be done?
Personally, I would start with focusing on rpm's rather than cubes. If I were to start designing a motor to perform within those goals/parameters, that 4.125" stroke would be gone.
Originally Posted by mr2guru
IMO to make 700hp it's going to take a solid roller, high compression and a lot of rpm.
Chances of doing it on pump gas with only a 427 are very slim.
Chances of doing it on pump gas with only a 427 are very slim.
Im heading off to the dyno to watch an aluminum block 383 make that if not close to it with some dart heads and a solid roller. on top of that is bottle!
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Lets see.... who hear has seen 600rwhp SAE on 427 LS motors? I have. I don't think a single plane would greatly improve the peak HP numbers over a LS7 intake, and it's only helpfull if you need more RPM than 6500rpm. Even then it works well to 7200rpm, not perfect but well.
FWIW Sean, Dennis knows what he is talking about, DEFINATELY more than about 99.99% of the guys who are registered for this forum.
The compression is really the only thing that is going to change between a pump gas motor and a race motor in terms of this HP level. LS7 heads are surely capable of this on pump gas, no need to spend mega $$ on bling ETP's.
And for ***** and giggles people PLEASE stop thinking that overlap has anything to do with bleeding off compression!
Hell I think this is doable with LS7 castings and a hyd roller, but that's just me ;-)
Bret
FWIW Sean, Dennis knows what he is talking about, DEFINATELY more than about 99.99% of the guys who are registered for this forum.
The compression is really the only thing that is going to change between a pump gas motor and a race motor in terms of this HP level. LS7 heads are surely capable of this on pump gas, no need to spend mega $$ on bling ETP's.
And for ***** and giggles people PLEASE stop thinking that overlap has anything to do with bleeding off compression!
Hell I think this is doable with LS7 castings and a hyd roller, but that's just me ;-)
Bret
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 62
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From: Saint Clair Shores Mi
You would have to be real creative with pump gas and hyd. lifters.
I/m building a carbureted 2 stage fogger motor and hope to make 650 without the nitrous with the following.
410ci (4.040 6.0 block 4.000 stroke)
ported LS6 heads 330/240
14.5 to 1 comp
solid roller
custom ford intake (see pic, adapter plates are made now the cutting and welding starts).
I/m building a carbureted 2 stage fogger motor and hope to make 650 without the nitrous with the following.
410ci (4.040 6.0 block 4.000 stroke)
ported LS6 heads 330/240
14.5 to 1 comp
solid roller
custom ford intake (see pic, adapter plates are made now the cutting and welding starts).
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Lets see.... who hear has seen 600rwhp SAE on 427 LS motors? I have. I don't think a single plane would greatly improve the peak HP numbers over a LS7 intake, and it's only helpfull if you need more RPM than 6500rpm. Even then it works well to 7200rpm, not perfect but well.
FWIW Sean, Dennis knows what he is talking about, DEFINATELY more than about 99.99% of the guys who are registered for this forum.
The compression is really the only thing that is going to change between a pump gas motor and a race motor in terms of this HP level. LS7 heads are surely capable of this on pump gas, no need to spend mega $$ on bling ETP's.
And for ***** and giggles people PLEASE stop thinking that overlap has anything to do with bleeding off compression!
Hell I think this is doable with LS7 castings and a hyd roller, but that's just me ;-)
Bret
FWIW Sean, Dennis knows what he is talking about, DEFINATELY more than about 99.99% of the guys who are registered for this forum.
The compression is really the only thing that is going to change between a pump gas motor and a race motor in terms of this HP level. LS7 heads are surely capable of this on pump gas, no need to spend mega $$ on bling ETP's.
And for ***** and giggles people PLEASE stop thinking that overlap has anything to do with bleeding off compression!
Hell I think this is doable with LS7 castings and a hyd roller, but that's just me ;-)
Bret
Originally Posted by V6 Bird
I agree Bret. A little money spent in the right places and its very attainable. Even a rev kit with a wild hydraulic cam, ls7 heads and intake its doable.
8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
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From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by Ls1Joe
I have no problems at 8400 with my wet sump. It has a melling pump that about it on the oiling system.
Matt
8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
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From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by 1BADWS6@STENOD
I'm building a L92 based 427. I want to make 700 hp. He is what I have so far.
L92 block
Callies 4.125" crank
Using Howards steel rods 6.125"
Kooks 1 7/8"-2" stepped headers
D&D T56
He are the constraints I have. Must run on pump gas, so no higher than 12.0 cr. I would rather have it a hydraulic roller but not throwing out a solid. The only problem with the solid roller is the oiling. I don't want to run a dry sump system, so i want to stay under 7500rpms. I have a peterson external wet sump pump that I can use. The cam can be as big as needed...actually the bigger the better!
It's a 6 speed so it won't be a problem on the street. I'm not sure what heads to use ET LS7, ET 265, Livernois L92...etc.
What do you guys think? Is it possible? Give me your input!
L92 block
Callies 4.125" crank
Using Howards steel rods 6.125"
Kooks 1 7/8"-2" stepped headers
D&D T56
He are the constraints I have. Must run on pump gas, so no higher than 12.0 cr. I would rather have it a hydraulic roller but not throwing out a solid. The only problem with the solid roller is the oiling. I don't want to run a dry sump system, so i want to stay under 7500rpms. I have a peterson external wet sump pump that I can use. The cam can be as big as needed...actually the bigger the better!
It's a 6 speed so it won't be a problem on the street. I'm not sure what heads to use ET LS7, ET 265, Livernois L92...etc. What do you guys think? Is it possible? Give me your input!
Matt
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Originally Posted by matt346ls1
Not yet anyways. give it 100 passes and take it apart and you will know why people use a dry sump when pushing LSx's hard.
Matt
Matt
Most of you guys keep forgetting we were turning my stock bottom end car 8200rpm's. It had between 400-600 passes when we pulled it apart to put the big inch engine in. We had several engine builders take a look at it and again no issues with oiling and we were advised that keeping this a wet sump would be just fine. I think most of the guys we asked have been in the engine building business for 25 plus years. Did you know that SBC's turned 9000rpms for years with a stock wet sump? Nascar was primarily a wet sump setup until the late 70's when they went to a dry sump setup. Just because some people can't keep them together doesn't mean in 100 passes we will have issues. We put about 1 year into this build doing research with both prostock guys we know, engine builders we know and so on. We built this thing to last so it does not have to be torn down. I will let you know in 150 passes if I have to tear it down but we don't think we will ever have an issue. It is more bearing clearance issues than anything. We now alot of SCCA guys turning in the low 8000rpms in the road racing because there class does not allow wet sumps.
Thanks,
Amber
T56Rebuilds.com
Oh and by the way, Bo Kennedy (Patterson Racing), they go buy CompBuilder on here, is turning his wet sump LS1 8400rpms and has set many national records and won the points last year in Top Stock. Just an FYI.
Thanks,
Amber
T56Rebuilds.com
Thanks,
Amber
T56Rebuilds.com
Originally Posted by Stang's Bane
Please forgive me being a dumbass, what is a rev kit?
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...k/HPIM0622.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...k/HPIM0621.jpg
for valvetrain stability?
Originally Posted by Stang's Bane
Cool now what does it do? for valvetrain stability?
for valvetrain stability? 8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
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From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by Ls1Joe
Oh and by the way, Bo Kennedy (Patterson Racing), they go buy CompBuilder on here, is turning his wet sump LS1 8400rpms and has set many national records and won the points last year in Top Stock. Just an FYI.
Thanks,
Amber
T56Rebuilds.com
Thanks,
Amber
T56Rebuilds.com
Matt
Matt,
I know where you are coming from as well. One of the things we did to keep that from happening is using the Moroso Oil Pan with there pickup and custom remote oil filter. Joe said cavitation is a huge issue with these engines. Our oil pan, filter and pickup will hold 9.5 quarts. The oil filter alone hold 2 quarts. That is one of the reasons people have issues.
Thanks,
Amber
I know where you are coming from as well. One of the things we did to keep that from happening is using the Moroso Oil Pan with there pickup and custom remote oil filter. Joe said cavitation is a huge issue with these engines. Our oil pan, filter and pickup will hold 9.5 quarts. The oil filter alone hold 2 quarts. That is one of the reasons people have issues.
Thanks,
Amber
8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by Ls1Joe
Matt,
I know where you are coming from as well. One of the things we did to keep that from happening is using the Moroso Oil Pan with there pickup and custom remote oil filter. Joe said cavitation is a huge issue with these engines. Our oil pan, filter and pickup will hold 9.5 quarts. The oil filter alone hold 2 quarts. That is one of the reasons people have issues.
Thanks,
Amber
I know where you are coming from as well. One of the things we did to keep that from happening is using the Moroso Oil Pan with there pickup and custom remote oil filter. Joe said cavitation is a huge issue with these engines. Our oil pan, filter and pickup will hold 9.5 quarts. The oil filter alone hold 2 quarts. That is one of the reasons people have issues.
Thanks,
Amber
matt
Originally Posted by matt346ls1
Very good point, I have been told alot that the cavitating is what kills the LS1 oiling. Are you using the HP6 filter or the HP4? I have also heard of people using accusumps with some success.
matt
matt
Matt,
We are not using either. We use a custom filter that you have to get from CV Products. They are $54.87 each and hold 1.5 quarts. It is a custom filter for there remote filter relocater.
Thanks,
Amber
8 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
From: detroit, Mi
Originally Posted by Ls1Joe
Matt,
We are not using either. We use a custom filter that you have to get from CV Products. They are $54.87 each and hold 1.5 quarts. It is a custom filter for there remote filter relocater.
Thanks,
Amber
We are not using either. We use a custom filter that you have to get from CV Products. They are $54.87 each and hold 1.5 quarts. It is a custom filter for there remote filter relocater.
Thanks,
Amber
matt
Originally Posted by JasonShort
Personally, I would start with focusing on rpm's rather than cubes. If I were to start designing a motor to perform within those goals/parameters, that 4.125" stroke would be gone.
L92 and LS7 heads done correctly can both attain the 700hp goal without a problem, just make sure you put enough cubes with them.
Bret
Originally Posted by SStrokerAce
Jason, that's the expensive way to get there. A 427-440 cube motor can make 800hp much easier than a 365cube motor. RPM is great, but it costs money in terms of parts and repair every time.
I totally agree that a rpm-capable motor costs money. However, he never mentioned that cost was a primary factor. He also mentioned that he would prefer a large cam (high rpm powerband). The cost difference in rev-capable parts would only add about 10% to the cost of the complete motor. Also, I never mentioned any statement on the actual cubes he should use(ex.,365ci)
If it were my build, I wouldnt put anything more than a 4" stroke in it, which would still net quite a few cubic inches (~400-412ci).Also, I never assume that any motor I design will make theroetical/calculated numbers. I usually set my power goals at 80% of what a motor *should* make on paper....that way I wont be let down.
On paper, a 427ci motor with 7500rpms *should* be able to make 700hp. But, it sucks when it only ends up making 650hp in actualilty
If I was starting from scratch with a naturally aspirated engine build with a desired hp in mind, I would always choose rpms over mega-cubes despite the additional cost. You gotta pay to play!
Jason
