I never really saw your cylinders but the deburring in the lifter valley is on all these LS2s and L92s right from the factory. That much is totally normal and it's on all the blocks I have seen. We deburr some stuff a little more but it's already like your pictures when you get it out of the crate.

 

Cool, good to know. Like I said I'm getting all freaked out now not knowing what I have.
TSP was right about the cam valley then.

 

My LS2 doesnt have it but it is a stock corvette LS2 out of the car. Doesnt have the marks between the cylinders either.
I thought they said they were making good on it regardless of who was at fault? I would wait for a response from them before jumping to conclusions on what they will and wont cover. While I didnt buy a motor from them, I did get a lot of parts and they always gave me a good price and fast shipping.

I dont buy the debris theory and see ring issues there. Was it honed with a TQ plate?

 

The answers will never be seen because its obvious this customer is not their to watch over the tear down. If its a machine shop 9 times out of 10 they will offer a cover up of the truth. Sure sounds like its a huge possibility here too. Ring gapping caused those scratches. Theres no way loose debris would do it only in the 6 and 12 position. You dont see scratches often much less that deep on the wrist pin side because the rings are to be installed 90 from the wrist pin.

 

The rings rotate on the piston while running. If debris got caught in the ring land, it could cause the rings to stay in the same place and cause the scratches.

 

I see a promise made by a company to fix the problem no matter what. Doesn't everyone agree that since they said they would fix it no matter what that they should honor there word?

 

The reason its in the 6 o'clock position is because the power stroke pushes in that direction. It isnt from all those rings happening to freeze on all those cylinders in the exact same position. I saw it in person and the marks start from the position of the top ring....clearly seen in the first posted picture. The picture showing marks above the top ring is from the psiton on the way up on the compressin stroke (pistons are able to rock toward the 6 and 12 oclock positions and not 3 to 9 oclock) and is the single pic that debunks the debris theory. The debris cant be both above and below the ring itself.

Another reason it wasnt debris is because the damage was chronic and not acute. At different stages the heads came off. Specifically to install new ETP heads and the damage was there but not nearly as pronounced. Picturs were sent as per RJ and no response to the claims made at that time. So debris was in the motor for months with nothing in the filter or on the screen and was able to circulate for months without getting stopped by the oil filtration system?? Stop already. My guess is a newbie did the rings.

One of the cylinder blemishes was there before the motor was run and Zack said it was normal. I wouldnt have accepted it but RJ took Zack at his word.

 

I didnt see that they said they would pay for it. Rebuild for money not the same as rebuild it for free.

Regardless this motor had problems out the gate. I feel bad for everyone involved. Once again, wait for a response before bashing.

 

Wow RJ, when Jason and I spoke with you yesterday I thought everything was going fine. We told you that we were proceeding with the teardown and we would call you as soon as we have it torn down. Everything is being measured and documented as it comes apart. What really bothers me is the fact that you more or less call us liars. You already have in your mind that we're blowing you off and we're going to immediately try and blame you. We told you that we will tell you nothing but the truth the entire time, no matter what is found, but that apparently is only a good theory if you get to hear what you want to hear. If we disagree with your theories, then we're trying to pass the blame. You more or less call us liars and tell us that your block as been welded, but it's not until someone else says that it's normal that you're okay with it. You're attempting to get a free short-block from people you obviously don't trust. We inspected the engine, as well as the machine shop. Debris has gone through the engine, plain and simple. I can't tell you the number of different brands of cylinder heads we've pulled out of the box that had small aluminum shavings still in them. This is one of MANY things that could have happened. The tuning aspect is a completely different topic. We're still discussing the improper ring gaps, but that does not explain how the blemishes and gouges are above the rings with the piston at TDC. We are getting bashed because of someone not wanting to take responsibility for his actions. We sell a lot of short-blocks, and we have a great reputation for quality short- and long-blocks. These engines are not just slapped together. We offer the best product available for the best price, but it's apparent that a factory GM warranty is expected, too. We are expected to warranty a short-block that we did not finish the assembly on, has been disassembled/reassembled multiple times, we did not tune, was purchased over a year ago, etc. You told us on the phone that you'll leave the verdict up to the guys that do this all of the time, and then you run to the internet because you weren't told what you want to hear. We're being truthful with you, just like we have all along, but truth means nothing if you don't get the answer you're looking for. We have sold hundreds and hundreds of short- and long-blocks problem-free, so the basis of us being incompetent engine builders is ridiculous at best.

We said we will take care of the engine, and we will. We have not lied to you whatsoever, and we're not going to start now. I just wish you could be willing to be as up front to us on the phone as you are on the internet. All of the information will be posted, along with pictures. We don't have anything to hide. We have the utmost confidence in our work. We will also have information from Diamond Racing that will be posted at a later date.

I will post all the specs when everything is measured. Until then I guess you can continue to bash us for something that most likely wasn't a result of our work.

 

We said we will take care of the engine


Can you clarify what this means exactly?

 

While this issue does not invole me, I beleive your customer may be upset becasue this statement:

which that and a phone call he apparently had with you guys led him to beleive the short block would be replaced at your cost which he posted here, on page 3:

While in reality...Of course TSP will rebuild the block no matter whos fault it is, TSP is a performance shop and thats what you do, why would you not fix it? But he posted that TSP stated they would pay for the fixes on page 3, which you guys never corrected, and now that the block is sent in, he finds out that he will be paying for the fixes with money he doesn't have.

 

I know there have been some miscommunications but what exactly did you (TSP) mean that statement to mean? I think a clarification before the motor was removed and shipped to you would have went a long way to this not being an issue. I am in the car business and when I tell a customer I will fix the car no matter whose fault it is, they assume that I mean that I am agreeing to pay for it.

 

This thread should be moved to the Vendor feedback forum so the two parties can work it out.

 

It seems that people want to skip the long posts and still throw their $.02 in. So, I'm going to quote myself for those that cannot read.

When Jason said that we would take care of the engine, he was referring to the machine work. This obviously was not clarified, so we are standing behind it regardless. If it needs new pistons we will replace them. This will certainly be clarified for future reference. At this rate, I should be warrantying my sales guy's 408 cid iron-block because he had a nitrous backfire. We said we'll take care of the engine, and we will. I'm not sure why some are feeling the need to beat a dead horse.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

 

Well I know who I will contact when its time for my next engine!

 

So debris came from 2 separate sets of heads (there were signs of marks with both sets on). The first set came off his old motor which had no marks in the cylinders and were reinstalled on the 403 for months. Then a new set of heads had debris in them which went in the motor and evaded the oil filtration system.

Of all posters I was the one that kept saying wait for an answer from TSP. You lost me even as a parts customer. The machine shop isnt trustworthy and as a builder of engines for years, I know it isnt correct.


Debris only causing marks in the 6 oclock position and it escapes oil filtration for months------->>>>>

 

If debris gets in the ring lands and stops the rings from rotating at that point it will cause the marks in the cylinders. Don’t you think debris could have entered the motor from when the heads are off, not just from the new heads? It could be trash from removing old gaskets, dirt from around the lifter valley cover, ect, ect......it could come from anywhere. There is no way TSP should have to replace anything from a performance (racing) short block only motor, with over 3000 miles. I believe there would be more of an argument if they supplied the complete long block, that wasn't tampered with.

I agree this is a dead horse topic. Let the 2 parties work this out.

 

On the phone and here on the internet I am going to go with whatever the experts tell me. Why? Because I have no choice. There is a couple of reasons I'm upset.
1. I paid for a new block. I got one that has a chip in between cly 3 and 5. I'm fine with the not welded diagnosis like I said I've been freaking out over stupid crap because I thought I got a bad motor and I'm worried sick. I don't have the cash for another one. I can never sell this motor because I could not do so and feel good about it with that chip in the block. So, I got no resale. So I was a lil mad. I asked about it and was told its no big deal. I can't sell it, its a big deal.
2. I was lead to believe on the phone that this is going to cost me more money than I currently have. So, yeah I'm mad. I could have just run the thing till it blew up but now I'm going to have to scrimp to come up with a rebuild. I'm not going to be able to drive my car for another god darn summer. That's not your fault. Being a poor soldier just sucks.
3. I guess people think I'm stupid. When a motor comes apart 3 times and each time marks in the same place are becoming more prevalent and increased in number, than there better be something stuck in the ring when the piston comes out. But, like you said the marks are not where a ring would travel. So, then how does that work? I'm lying? The marks were not getting worse and worse after each inspection? The heads magically did not induce debris in the other short block but did in this one? 3 times, 3 different heads?
4. I want something for free? Do I? I paid $5k for a forged motor that I expected to be properly machined and assembled. If I fucked it up there is no way I would come on here asking for you to fix it. You may deal with scum bags all day long but I'm an officer in the military and we kinda live by a different code then the average citizen. I have given up good pay, a family, my passions for racing, a home, holidays, I eat **** and sleep in it, ******** shoot at me all day long and I smile at them, and for gods sake I have men that depend on my word and I can not afford to lie. So, if you for one second think I'm making this story up for you to fix my mistakes then pack the motor up and give it back to me. I have recieved dozens of posts about people with similar problems that let the thing go till it failed. I did not want that to happen. So, I acted, and I get accused of improper assemblies where I induce enough debris to beat the **** out of the motor. You guys keep this up and you are going to turn into that other motor vendor that got in deep kimchee.
5. Trevor I disagree with your theories because sir, they are highly improbable if not impossible. Debris can't be on top of the ring and below the ring and can't be real bad in one hole then get worse, then slight in one then get worse, then be exaclty where the end gaps are ON EVERY PISTON! I'm not calling you liars because that is not a gentlemanly thing to do. I'm stating facts as I see them adn they should be taken as such, up against the words of a compay that has an outstanding track record. I just don't see it as you do and if the $5k is that important to you then I'll eat it. I just think somebody wsa sleeping when they did that motor. This is not the same as a nitrous backfire and you know it. This is not the same as a race motor failure and you know it. This is a question of a very difficult tolerance maybe not being met and me wanting you guys to check it for me.

I'm a nice, non-comfrontational kind of guy. That's why I'm pleasant on the phone. You tell me that its debris, and I'm like nope, don't agree with that. I've seen this motor apart 3 times not you, but like I said I will default to the experts. You say its my fault, fine its my fault. I'm not going to fight you over this. I should get a charge back on my card because I did not get what I paid for, but hey, who needs that hassle. You guys are the experts and if you want to screw a guy like me and tell the world some magic debris got in all the cylinders and left marks in the same places then by all means go ahead. I'm not the smartest cookie so, hey maybe you are right. If you can honestly tell me to my face that the piston and ring tolerances are right on, then fine. You win send it back to me.

This is on the internet because you made it on the internet. It started with a simple question, why is there a chip in my block between 3 and 4 and why are there scratches in hole 7. THAT WAS OUT OF THE BOX. So, any debris would have come from the machine shop. I rolled over the motor during assembly and the scratches you see in number 7 where begining to show. That's the point fellas. The crap was there when I first opened it up. Unfortunately your employee thought it was cool so I ran it and now I'm the dumb *** that put the debris in there. Yeah, I want something for free. I'd call ya but I'm working, in a tent. And, I never intended to call you out. You told me the motor was fine so I asked what others thought. I did that cause I'm no expert. Since then I've done some homework and I've seen where marks like that come from. Hey, I got an idea, if that motor is so perfect buy it off me for $4k. I'll go away and you can figure out your quality control issues and keep trucking. No harm done.

So here, I'll fix you guys up in the thread so the scrollers can come right here and get it straight. TSP built a great motor that got debris in it and scratched up all the cylinders and caused blow by. They did nothing wrong, I'm an idiot. I can't put anything together without dumping debris in it, 3 times in the same holes. I drop wrenches and stuff on the deck to chip up the surface and when it doesn't make power and uses oil I try to blame the builder and get something for free. I appologize to TSP for trying to get to the bottom of this and dragging them in it as it was clearly 100% my fault because debris got into the motor 3 times and is probably still there.

This is the end of the thread.
I really want a motor that does not use oil
That does not make marks in the walls repeatedly
That has some resale value.

The one you gave me does not fit this criteria. Because I do not want to come across as a liar and somebody wanting something for free I will leave it completely up to you as to what you will do. You have my money. You have my motor. I'm pretty much at your mercy. You do whatever y'all down in Texas feel is right.

I am a customer that was uncomfortable with a purchase and looked to you for help. As I unwrapped the motor I saw things I was not happy with. I immediately went to you for advice. I broke the motor in and found things I was not happy with. Again, I was told I was ok. 2 more times the thing came apart to change heads and 2 more times wierd marks appeared in the walls. Again, you say its ok. I ask the board. I get a bunch of oks and a bunch of not oks. You chime in and want to fix it. I get pissed when I find out I have to shell out more money and I get accused of screwing up a motor and trying to get a free fix. Yeah ok. I'm still a customer uncomfortable with a purchase.

If you don't want to keep the thing then I have a figure in my head I'm willing to pay to get it back fixed. Including shipping. That means we are already $500 into it. If it exceeds that figure I'm just going to ask you to send back my pile of worthless parts and I will figure it out from there.

And, I keep bringing this thread up because people keep asking me what is happening. I have PMs from people that want to know what's up. I have PMs from people THAT HAVE SEEN THIS motor and want to know what you think. Not because they don't know what is wrong, but because THEY KNOW WHAT IS WRONG and want to see what you think. So, I told them what you think. Do you think I would actually send the motor off without a reputable shop looking at it? Do you think I think my mechanic skills are so godlike that I could never do something wrong? Nope, I consulted many people before I was convinced I had a build issue.

And, as to why I'm pissed about having to pay for the repair, well that's because I misunderstood you and thought y'all were going to cover it to help me out no matter what you thought was the problem. I've just committed myself to a bill I probably can't 100% pay. That's like writing a bad check and I can't do that. (See the live by a different code comment) So, yeah I'm a little pissed. I'm in a jam and even though myself and 10 other people can't see any way in hades I did this, you say I did this and I have to pay my way out.
I'm looking outside at the sun and really hating my life.

 

Mods please delete this thread as it seems I've painted a bad picture of TSP.

 

Let's agree to disagree. Arguing all weekend long is getting us nowhere, and we have stated numerous times that we'll cover the engine. I'm not sure what else you're looking for at this point, and I honestly don't know how many other ways to say it. As per the original agreement, we will cover the engine. If you would like to discuss this any further, feel free to give us a call. If not, then we will contact you once the engine is torn down and a time frame before it is back together and ready to be picked up from our facility. We're standing behind the engine, just like you wanted us to. All we can do is proceed forward with getting the engine taken care of and back to you. All of the arguing is pointless.

Feel free to PM or call with any other concerns.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance