Found a Problem, Engine Builders Check out these Pics
Originally Posted by AintQik
I bought this shortblock from a vendor here. Its down around 40 rwhp and occasionally made a bit of piston slap noise but these are LSXs and we all know they do that. When I first put the motor in and broke it in, I took the heads off to change them out to a differnet set and noticed some scoring and a gouge in the cylinder walls. I called the vendor and showed them pics and they said it was no problem and to run it. Well I'm doing more head work and now there are a bunch of gouges and lots of scoring in all the holes. Only a few have deep fingernail catching gouges but they all have scoring or fine scratches. All the marks are in the 12 and 6 o'clock positions. It looks like to me the piston is rocking in the hole and the skirt is making these marks. Explains a bunch of my issues. This is an uncharacteristic issue from this supporting vendor and I'm not sure what they are going to do. Motor has 3k miles on it.
Can I get some of y'alls opinion on this? What do you think the problem is, if you were the vendor what would you say? If the vendor does not stand behind their work, how long do you think this is going to last? (I'm going to have to save money for another motor, I'm having a pretty bad last few months here). Maybe I can get a bunch of comments together to show the vendor. I've already had 3 mech's look at it and they all agree with my diagnosis, maybe I'm just looking for some more support.
I don't want to give these guys any bad press yet because I'm still not sure where they stand. Like I said this vendor has always been awesome and I've backed them countless times when folks are asking where to get a good shortblock. Maybe the machinist just had a bad day, or maybe the pistons were a bad lot. What do you all think? I'll take some better pics in the daylight but here are some quickies.
Can I get some of y'alls opinion on this? What do you think the problem is, if you were the vendor what would you say? If the vendor does not stand behind their work, how long do you think this is going to last? (I'm going to have to save money for another motor, I'm having a pretty bad last few months here). Maybe I can get a bunch of comments together to show the vendor. I've already had 3 mech's look at it and they all agree with my diagnosis, maybe I'm just looking for some more support.
I don't want to give these guys any bad press yet because I'm still not sure where they stand. Like I said this vendor has always been awesome and I've backed them countless times when folks are asking where to get a good shortblock. Maybe the machinist just had a bad day, or maybe the pistons were a bad lot. What do you all think? I'll take some better pics in the daylight but here are some quickies.
Originally Posted by Bigchickenhawk
Just let me know when the engine tear down is happening and I will bring a video camera. Will let the pictures do the talking.
TSP has been very good about this. I can't see them trying to blame this on me if its not my fault. Seems like the poster has a beef with TSP. I didn't and most certainly do not now. I originally wanted to know if anybody else thought it was an issue worth pursuing and I was convinced it was. I was erroniously led to believe TSP didn't want to look at the issue and only mentioned them as a "vendor" until somebody else brought up their name. But, it all worked out cause they very much want to get this right and make sure everybody knows their builders are top notch.
Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
Wow, I've never seen so many vultures swarming a thread in my entire life!
The short-block was purchased from us here @ TSP. When I talk with the owner of this engine I'll setup a time to get it back to us for inspection. There's many many issues that could be causing this, so attempting to blame the builder prior to researching it is absolutely ridiculous. It's really disturbing how many people are trying to discredit a vendor without any facts or information. We have hundreds and hundreds of short-blocks in use, and it's for a reason. Our quality and reputation speaks for itself, so trying to insinuate that we're building junk is pretty laughable.
We sell and ship hundreds & hundreds of engines every year without any issues. The machine shop that machines & assembles our engines build everything from our LS-based engines up to PRO STOCK engines! It's common practice for us to see $50K+ engines sitting on the dyno or being built right next to these LSx engines! The majority of their engines are built and sold for NHRA racers.
Rest assured I'll personally make sure that if there is any issue whatsoever that was caused on our end that it's fixed immediately. That being said, some of the people in the thread questioning the quality of another vendor's short blocks is incredibly shady. We're not selling engines on eBay where we won't be around next week to take care of the customer. We don't sell the volume we do because of lack of quality, know-how, or customer service.
Attempting to gain business from trying to bad-mouth others is a pretty poor business practice. Affordable short-blocks do not mean that they're junk. All of our engines are built using strict tolerances, no matter the cost. We don't have to raise engine costs sky-high to have the motivation to want to build it every engine right.
We don't slap an engine together and hope for the best. We have a build sheet on every engine, and every engine does not leave until it's right. From bearing clearances to ring gaps, our engines are built with only the best procedures. Charging an arm and a leg for an engine doesn't make your quality that much better. It just makes your prices high-end.
We're able to build these short-blocks quickly & without issue because at any point there may be as many as 8-10 people working on LS-based engines in an effort to ship quality products in a timely fashion. We build multiple short-blocks to try and keep some in stock at all times. Being our busy season, we cannot keep more than eight or ten short-blocks in stock at any point. At any other point during the year, it's not uncommon at all for us to have 15-20+ short-blocks built and ready to ship. Having the resources to build a lot of engines and have some in stock does not make our engines questionable.
If you guys want to question someone's short-blocks you might as well get in someone else's thread. We're going to get the short-block back from the customer and go through it for him. So, all of the other engine shops that are desperately trying to get the engine to discredit another vendor can go elsewhere.
Run a quick search on ls1tech, & you'll find we probably build more short-blocks on ls1tech than any other vendor. We have several other vendors that use our short-blocks exclusively because of our consistency & dependability.
Jason
Texas Speed & Performance
The short-block was purchased from us here @ TSP. When I talk with the owner of this engine I'll setup a time to get it back to us for inspection. There's many many issues that could be causing this, so attempting to blame the builder prior to researching it is absolutely ridiculous. It's really disturbing how many people are trying to discredit a vendor without any facts or information. We have hundreds and hundreds of short-blocks in use, and it's for a reason. Our quality and reputation speaks for itself, so trying to insinuate that we're building junk is pretty laughable.
We sell and ship hundreds & hundreds of engines every year without any issues. The machine shop that machines & assembles our engines build everything from our LS-based engines up to PRO STOCK engines! It's common practice for us to see $50K+ engines sitting on the dyno or being built right next to these LSx engines! The majority of their engines are built and sold for NHRA racers.
Rest assured I'll personally make sure that if there is any issue whatsoever that was caused on our end that it's fixed immediately. That being said, some of the people in the thread questioning the quality of another vendor's short blocks is incredibly shady. We're not selling engines on eBay where we won't be around next week to take care of the customer. We don't sell the volume we do because of lack of quality, know-how, or customer service.
Attempting to gain business from trying to bad-mouth others is a pretty poor business practice. Affordable short-blocks do not mean that they're junk. All of our engines are built using strict tolerances, no matter the cost. We don't have to raise engine costs sky-high to have the motivation to want to build it every engine right.We don't slap an engine together and hope for the best. We have a build sheet on every engine, and every engine does not leave until it's right. From bearing clearances to ring gaps, our engines are built with only the best procedures. Charging an arm and a leg for an engine doesn't make your quality that much better. It just makes your prices high-end.
We're able to build these short-blocks quickly & without issue because at any point there may be as many as 8-10 people working on LS-based engines in an effort to ship quality products in a timely fashion. We build multiple short-blocks to try and keep some in stock at all times. Being our busy season, we cannot keep more than eight or ten short-blocks in stock at any point. At any other point during the year, it's not uncommon at all for us to have 15-20+ short-blocks built and ready to ship. Having the resources to build a lot of engines and have some in stock does not make our engines questionable.
If you guys want to question someone's short-blocks you might as well get in someone else's thread. We're going to get the short-block back from the customer and go through it for him. So, all of the other engine shops that are desperately trying to get the engine to discredit another vendor can go elsewhere.
Run a quick search on ls1tech, & you'll find we probably build more short-blocks on ls1tech than any other vendor. We have several other vendors that use our short-blocks exclusively because of our consistency & dependability.
Jason
Texas Speed & Performance
I use Ray-Mac Racing Engines for my Premium builds. Every build gets a build sheet, and DYNO TUNED before it ever leaves.
Originally Posted by Outlaw1
I'd like to read the plugs and get a feel for the tune on top of inspecting the shortblock.
This was a shortblock so I never expected to get it broken in with dyno numbers.
Originally Posted by AintQik
No problem. I'll post pics of the plugs tonight. They look good. Tune was good, winter it ran at 12.6:1 WOT, no KR. Don't know what else I can tell ya. I'll post pics of the pan and I'll cut open the filter as well. Spinmonster may be present when I box this up so he can give an unbiased opinion.
This was a shortblock so I never expected to get it broken in with dyno numbers.
This was a shortblock so I never expected to get it broken in with dyno numbers.
I hope you don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point the blame at the tune. I'm only mentioning it to get a feel for what the shortblock has been through up to this point. In no way do I mean to suggest it was abused.
Keep in mind, part of tuning a car is to do so with an understanding of the whole combination. That includes consideration of cleances, especially ring packages and how the owner intends to drive it.
Constantly people mention fuel/air ratios without talking about cylinder pressures/temperatures that will be generated under different circumstances. Example: Experience has shown me that a piston that radiates a ton of heat will require a wide ring gap if you want to really run the snot out of it. If a wide gap isn't used and the engine is run a little on the lean side, which in turn raises the heat put into the ring, it will expand, grab the cylinder and try to beat the ring land and the cylinder wall.
This is just one example and not intended to point the blame one way or another. Reading the plugs just gives you a better feel for things. Those little jewels can tell you if it's living a lean, rich or detonation enhanced life. They will tell you everything except a lie.
Also, it should be pretty simple to just look down in the bore with a light and see where the top ring gap is, as well as get a ballpark guess on the gap. That would have been the first thing I did.
Keep in mind, part of tuning a car is to do so with an understanding of the whole combination. That includes consideration of cleances, especially ring packages and how the owner intends to drive it.
Constantly people mention fuel/air ratios without talking about cylinder pressures/temperatures that will be generated under different circumstances. Example: Experience has shown me that a piston that radiates a ton of heat will require a wide ring gap if you want to really run the snot out of it. If a wide gap isn't used and the engine is run a little on the lean side, which in turn raises the heat put into the ring, it will expand, grab the cylinder and try to beat the ring land and the cylinder wall.
This is just one example and not intended to point the blame one way or another. Reading the plugs just gives you a better feel for things. Those little jewels can tell you if it's living a lean, rich or detonation enhanced life. They will tell you everything except a lie.
Also, it should be pretty simple to just look down in the bore with a light and see where the top ring gap is, as well as get a ballpark guess on the gap. That would have been the first thing I did.
Originally Posted by AintQik
No problem. I'll post pics of the plugs tonight. They look good. Tune was good, winter it ran at 12.6:1 WOT, no KR. Don't know what else I can tell ya. I'll post pics of the pan and I'll cut open the filter as well. Spinmonster may be present when I box this up so he can give an unbiased opinion.
This was a shortblock so I never expected to get it broken in with dyno numbers.
This was a shortblock so I never expected to get it broken in with dyno numbers.
Originally Posted by Outlaw1
I hope you don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to point the blame at the tune. I'm only mentioning it to get a feel for what the shortblock has been through up to this point. In no way do I mean to suggest it was abused.
Keep in mind, part of tuning a car is to do so with an understanding of the whole combination. That includes consideration of cleances, especially ring packages and how the owner intends to drive it.
Constantly people mention fuel/air ratios without talking about cylinder pressures/temperatures that will be generated under different circumstances. Example: Experience has shown me that a piston that radiates a ton of heat will require a wide ring gap if you want to really run the snot out of it. If a wide gap isn't used and the engine is run a little on the lean side, which in turn raises the heat put into the ring, it will expand, grab the cylinder and try to beat the ring land and the cylinder wall.
This is just one example and not intended to point the blame one way or another. Reading the plugs just gives you a better feel for things. Those little jewels can tell you if it's living a lean, rich or detonation enhanced life. They will tell you everything except a lie.
Also, it should be pretty simple to just look down in the bore with a light and see where the top ring gap is, as well as get a ballpark guess on the gap. That would have been the first thing I did.
Keep in mind, part of tuning a car is to do so with an understanding of the whole combination. That includes consideration of cleances, especially ring packages and how the owner intends to drive it.
Constantly people mention fuel/air ratios without talking about cylinder pressures/temperatures that will be generated under different circumstances. Example: Experience has shown me that a piston that radiates a ton of heat will require a wide ring gap if you want to really run the snot out of it. If a wide gap isn't used and the engine is run a little on the lean side, which in turn raises the heat put into the ring, it will expand, grab the cylinder and try to beat the ring land and the cylinder wall.
This is just one example and not intended to point the blame one way or another. Reading the plugs just gives you a better feel for things. Those little jewels can tell you if it's living a lean, rich or detonation enhanced life. They will tell you everything except a lie.
Also, it should be pretty simple to just look down in the bore with a light and see where the top ring gap is, as well as get a ballpark guess on the gap. That would have been the first thing I did.
No offense taken at all. I too was concerned about the whole package before I concluded it was a ring/piston issue. I'm in no way as tech savvy as you guys, but I know my way around a motor. I can assure you that I drove the motor as it was intended, hard. However, that was after it was properly tuned and broke in. My def of hard is not banging rev limiters, overheating, stupid crap... just spirited jaunts down the road and stuff. Car has never been down the track with this motor. Tried once but I broke a diff case out of the hole. Even then it as an easy clean break at 1500 rpm. (got wheel hop). C6 thing you guys might not understand. I want to spray this motor, but never have, don't even own a kit. Once I saw the cyl mark I got scared it wasn't right and nix'd those plans. Hope I do get to spay it someday. We'll see. I'm looking at the motor now and its pretty obvious. Hope TSP finds the same results.
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Kumbayaaaaaaa..my lord kumbayaaaaaaaaaaa.....my looorrrrrrrrd.......kumbabyyyyyaaayh. Man this is good stuff........real life gear heads in real life drama. they could make a really sucessfull reality show out of this. I don't think I would miss an episode at all. I would even miss overhaulin, pinks and american hotrod to see this.
just good to know that i'm not the only one with carcrafting issues that bust my ***.....and cost me money at the same time.
just good to know that i'm not the only one with carcrafting issues that bust my ***.....and cost me money at the same time.
Yes, and it appears that TSP has determined that debris entered the motor and caused the wear marks in only the 6 o'clock position in the cylinders. The debris was persistant and showed documented increased wear, in the same spots, through 3 head changes. The debris was also stealthy in that it was not picked up by the filter or found anywhere in the bottom of the motor. And, lastly, they are having the machine shop that built the motor come up with options to try and save me money on the repair. So, while we are on the subject I'd like to know if anybody has ever purchased a brand new block with these marks in it. I'm being told that GM grinds flash off the blocks before they ship them but it looks an awful lot like somebody was trying to cover up a repair. Plus, why would a brand new block have a chip, or crack between holes 3 and 5? Any comments? I had a few shops look at the motor before I sent it out and they interestingly enough had some different views on the engine as a whole. Bottom line is I don't have enough money to pay for another motor. I would have run this one all summer until I saved up for another shortblock but I was led to believe that the block would be fixed (replaced in my book) regardless of who's fault it was. I barely had enough money to pay to ship the thing there, which TSP got me a great deal on by the way. So, I'm pretty much screwed out of the summer. If I'm given the option of paying a small fee to have the block re-honed I'm not going to take it. I'm not comfortable with that block for all the reasons shown and I'm not comfortable putting a band aid on an obvious to no one by me piston/ring issue that is chewing up my clys. Plus the thing had oil consumption issues that I just kept trying to tell myself was attributed to the stroke but c'mon. I don't want this block plain and simple and if its so perfect they can keep it and sell it to somebody else.
The bottom picture is a flaw in the block I think. We have seen this before, it cooled when the aluminum was poured I would guess. This should not cause problems in the cylinder with the bores.
Hope everything works out for you.
Kurt
Hope everything works out for you.
Kurt
There are so many wierd things with this motor I'm completely freaking out. I give up.
I have to go in the field again this weekend so I won't have a final word on what this will cost me until next week. TSP is having the machine shop tear into it and give me a price. I don't know how much "honing" is going to work cleaning up those jugs so I may just give up and start over.
I have to go in the field again this weekend so I won't have a final word on what this will cost me until next week. TSP is having the machine shop tear into it and give me a price. I don't know how much "honing" is going to work cleaning up those jugs so I may just give up and start over.
I was referencing the missing metal between the liners, that is a blem block from GM but that would not cause the scratches in your bores I don't think. The grind marks in the valley are probably from a grinder cleaning off flash, or removing a GM marking.
Kurt
Kurt
Originally Posted by 427
I was referencing the missing metal between the liners, that is a blem block from GM but that would not cause the scratches in your bores I don't think. The grind marks in the valley are probably from a grinder cleaning off flash, or removing a GM marking.
Kurt
Kurt