ha.woops i f'ed up. It would be nice if the owner would pust up the vendor though.

The fact that this engine is having things go wrong (assuming they are) is not a problem...**** happens, but if they dont back their work after 3K miles then it is.

And I deleted my first post, dont want to bash a company if they are not responsible.

 

I agree. Thats the fastest way to get things done. "antiquick" contacted them about this already, they should have taken the engine back and fixed it on day one, to keep it out of here. Not smart. Its not like they'll go out of business if they have to fix or replace the damn thing. But we do see shops go out of business all the time, the downward spiral has to start somewhere.


.

 

As I mentioned in the PM I sent you yesterday, I believe the problem is due to too tight a top ring end gap on that engine. You need to take the short block apart and check it yourself per my instructions. There is no reason for a properly built engine to score the cylinder wall like that. I've been in the race engine business since '72.

Regarding sleeving that LS2 block. Dry sleeving using Darton LS7 dry sleeves which I spec'd for them runs $1,550 for parts and labor. That includes decking the block. Bore size range runs from 4.125" to 4.185".

I will stress relieve that block for you no charge.

Your PM box is full by the way.

Steve

 

There are people and companies on this board that can get an engine out the door in record time and then there are people and companies that can build stuff right and take the time to do everything right and double and triple check their work. If you really do that as Jason said you should have very few to no problems as long as the end user isn't a total embacile which unfortunately cannot be controlled really.

Then, even at ALL these "good" places, there's still the few guys that don't care quite as much or are in a hurry that will take shortcuts to get something out the door faster. We had two blocks machined with steel caps at one of the "premium" shops mentioned that I had to re-line hone at SAM since the crank wouldn't even turn over!

The main housing bores were .002 tight and out of round still big time. To the eye they looked just great though! The guy that machined these two sleeved blocks later quit or was let go and started his own fiasco of a business up there in Detroit and screwed over many more people all the while being praised as a great engine builder because of where he came from.

On the other hand it's very easy for an end user to destroy or hurt an engine with either incompetent installation or tuning no matter how well it was conceived, spec'd and assembled. I see stuff like that every day! I have had pistons sent back to me that look like someone took a plasma cutter to them and they think it's the pistons fault! I've had pistons sent back that had top rings with NO moly left almost at all and massively detonated tops and lands and they think it's a "bad" piston.

Anyway to make a long reply longer the marks could be from more than one cause so you should take a good look at it and if someone like Kurt will look at it for free you might take him up on it! Some of those lines and scratches though are normal and some may not be. It's hard to tell in the pics really. Some rings do this more than others and also if they are even a little dirty during assembly. The cylinder wall clearance though is probably normal for a cold forged piston. People are always surprised how much "play" there is when the rock the piston at TDC. We do it every day when setting deck so it's pretty normal for us.

 

No way, not at a "premium shop", impossible!!!

Thats just one more reason bad builds happen and always will, regardless of what level shop does the work, builders that lose the passion and just don't care and stick around until they get canned.

I saw, with my own eyes, a totally blown N/A 427ci engine at a shop in Orlando that just came apart while driving and a set of disasterous heads at a shop in Lauderdale, both from one of the so-called "premium" shops mentioned in this thread, they were built poorly and thats why they were at these other shops getting fixed. Its probably the same "premium" shop you're talking about.


.

 

Found this in an old post...does NOT look like LPE...

"Stationed at McGuire
TSP 403
ETP 215s
FAST
.236/.242
Kooks
RAM HD and Flywheel
I'm changing to the ETPs and that cam next weekend so I'll let y'all know how she runs.
Pulls like a frieght train now with the MTIs and Texas Giant. I want to bring the power band down. Right now it's wide open or nothing. Trying to make it a lil more fun on the street."

 

Yes, its a Texas Speed block. I wanted to give them a chance to respond. I called Jon and told him that I was having problems and he said it sounded normal. I sent very large files to Zach, who no longer works there and then tried to send them to Jon but they would not go thru. I sent him a link to this thread and he promised to call or email me back and I got nothing. I know the pictures are not the best but I've got tons that show in detail how deep those top scores are and a few of the ones on the bottom. Texas Speed has not contacted me and I don't expect them to. Listen I'm not one of those whiney *** guys that screwed up a motor and is expecting somebody to fix it for free. I've had problems with this motor since day one. It pulls hard, but it has made some odd noises and has been down on power. I've got 4 shops that have seen this car on the dyno and they know there is a "mysterious" reason it makes lower than expected power. It's a 403 with 11.88:1 comp, .236/.242 XER, ET 215s (going to 225), FAST, etc, etc, etc. It makes 468rwhp 444 rwtq thru 4.10s. I have been in contact with them since day one, trying to figure out what the problem was. I wasn't pointing fingers, just looking for some places to check. Everything was fine including the tune. I'm going on head set #3 just because I'm doing some testing and experimenting. When I took heads off the first time I noticed the strange marks and called. Sent lots of pics etc. I was told its normal. I was like, "dude I can stick my finger nail in these holes". I was told it was so high on the cyl its ok. So, I ran it. Got numbers with head set #2 and upon disassembly saw the marks had multiplied. The scratches in the bottom of the holes don't worry me. Its the deep gouges on top, litterally chipping away sleave material. WTF? Oh its ok again. And look, I really like Jon. He is a funny guy to talk to, he wants to help you with your combination and he always answered my questions and made me feel like I was getting my money's worth. And, to TSP's defense they don't do the machine work in house. I don't even know if they do the assembly. But clearly, all the speculation and conjecture aside, there is an assembly/machining issue with this motor. Yes, there can be a dozen causes for the marks on the walls, but can you invent one where it was my fault? I know they have tons of good motors out there. But one shitty one got away. Ok, it happens. But do you just look the other way and pretend that motors are supposed to look that way? I'm not an idiot. I used to be a very confrontational guy. In the old days I would have got real mad and drove the motor to Texas and threw it through a window. But, I'm completely non-comfrontatinal now. I called, I stated my case, they don't care. I showed them the thread and the only response we got was that looks ok to me. Its not. I bet $3 the leakdown test would show I'm losing. Nobody is calling me. I got a full PM box of people that care, want to know who built it, what they are doing to fix it, but nothing from Jon. That's cool. I'm not going to hate just show you the facts and let you make your own conclusions and purchases.

Kurt, you guys are cool. I love the crap you build and when I'm in my little shop getting ready to skimp on fabbing panels on my 1950 chebby, thought of that LT1 Camaro go through my head and makes me slow down and put some more time in them. But, its spring brother. I am short on play money and I'm tired. Unless TSP wants to get me square at no cost to me I'm going to put her back together and let the wind blow thru my hair for a few months before I build my 427. Hell I gotta sleave it anyway.

So, take from this what you will. I got my answers and am satisfied. Whil ewe can't of course determine exactly what went wrong, there is an enormous possibility there is something wrong and that it was in fact related to assembly/machining. Whether or not that is causing my lower than expected hp issues is impossible to tell. Additionally, I probably should not race this motor with spray cause bad things are likely to happen. I was pretty sure the whole point of spending good money on forged parts was to be able to do stuff like this but hey, whaddya gonna do? Lastly, and here is the big take away, if you want a motor that has been assembled by people who don't have "bad days" then spend the extra money. If you want people building your motor who think that wierd marks in a cly wall are NOT ok, spend the extra money. If you want people to call you back if something goes wrong, spend the extra money.

And, to TSP, I'm really sorry guys. Y'all have always been really cool but it is was it is.

 

Wow, I've never seen so many vultures swarming a thread in my entire life!

The short-block was purchased from us here @ TSP. When I talk with the owner of this engine I'll setup a time to get it back to us for inspection. There's many many issues that could be causing this, so attempting to blame the builder prior to researching it is absolutely ridiculous. It's really disturbing how many people are trying to discredit a vendor without any facts or information. We have hundreds and hundreds of short-blocks in use, and it's for a reason. Our quality and reputation speaks for itself, so trying to insinuate that we're building junk is pretty laughable.

We sell and ship hundreds & hundreds of engines every year without any issues. The machine shop that machines & assembles our engines build everything from our LS-based engines up to PRO STOCK engines! It's common practice for us to see $50K+ engines sitting on the dyno or being built right next to these LSx engines! The majority of their engines are built and sold for NHRA racers.

Rest assured I'll personally make sure that if there is any issue whatsoever that was caused on our end that it's fixed immediately. That being said, some of the people in the thread questioning the quality of another vendor's short blocks is incredibly shady. We're not selling engines on eBay where we won't be around next week to take care of the customer. We don't sell the volume we do because of lack of quality, know-how, or customer service. Attempting to gain business from trying to bad-mouth others is a pretty poor business practice. Affordable short-blocks do not mean that they're junk. All of our engines are built using strict tolerances, no matter the cost. We don't have to raise engine costs sky-high to have the motivation to want to build it every engine right.

We don't slap an engine together and hope for the best. We have a build sheet on every engine, and every engine does not leave until it's right. From bearing clearances to ring gaps, our engines are built with only the best procedures. Charging an arm and a leg for an engine doesn't make your quality that much better. It just makes your prices high-end.

We're able to build these short-blocks quickly & without issue because at any point there may be as many as 8-10 people working on LS-based engines in an effort to ship quality products in a timely fashion. We build multiple short-blocks to try and keep some in stock at all times. Being our busy season, we cannot keep more than eight or ten short-blocks in stock at any point. At any other point during the year, it's not uncommon at all for us to have 15-20+ short-blocks built and ready to ship. Having the resources to build a lot of engines and have some in stock does not make our engines questionable.

If you guys want to question someone's short-blocks you might as well get in someone else's thread. We're going to get the short-block back from the customer and go through it for him. So, all of the other engine shops that are desperately trying to get the engine to discredit another vendor can go elsewhere.

Run a quick search on ls1tech, & you'll find we probably build more short-blocks on ls1tech than any other vendor. We have several other vendors that use our short-blocks exclusively because of our consistency & dependability.

Jason
Texas Speed & Performance

 

Furthermore,

I will personally pickup the owner & anybody else who wants to watch the teardown of this engine. These vendors that want to hover around like vultres in this thread go ahead & make plans to fly down & be here when this engine gets opened up.

It's very very possible that during one of the 3 times this engine has been torn down that something got into the short block.

Either way lets get this thing back & we can rehone the shortblock & get this thing back on the road.

 

I'm still needing the customers name so I can contact him, so please pm me!

 

I'm sorry Jon was not able to diagnose the problems with your short block over by images that he never received. I'll rebuild the short block for you even if the issue is on your end. What people don't understand is there's 100 things that could cause these issues. Blaming the machine shop before you 100% no the problem is a cheap shot.

We always take care of our customers & that will never change.

 

Cool, cool, like I said I never wanted to bad mouth you guys. I always liked y'all and thought the stuff you build was straight. But, after being told a bunch of times that was normal wear I was getting a little annoyed.
I can assure you there was nothing foreign in the motor, but I'm sure a tear down will show that. I'm glad you guys are willing to take a look. I'll pm you my number so we can talk.
rj

 

And, I was trying not to take a cheap shot. Nobody wanted to talk to me. I understand that its tough to diagnose with some pictures, but something is wrong.

So, let it be known that TSP is standing behind their work. I feel a lot better about my shortblock and appologize if I didn't give a busy shop enough time to respond.

 

wow what a thread, I have all kinds of scratches in my cylinder walls. Mostly bcause I run the car without an air cleaner at times and I'm sure I've rattled these pistons pretty good a time or two. I can even feel a couple deep scratches and the car still has run its best ever ETs after hundreds of passes. Unless you leaked that thing down before you pulled it apart you have no way of knowing if those marks have anything to do with anything.

I can never figure out why people on these forums love to see other shops that 'they' dont use having bad luck or just sit and wait for someone to have a problem before they post. Its pretty fucked up if you ask me..

edit: and a big thumbs up for kurt at W2W to offer to look at it for free not even knowing who built it. Good to see someone offering a solution..

 

I didn't see anyone taking shots at TSP...AintQik asked if there was a problem with his motor. If someone reesponds with yes, how is that a cheap shot at TSP? No-One said it was their fault.

And I have never seen anyone of the top vendors on this site, including TSP, take shots at another...becuase we all know that the ones who buld quality **** dont need to.

 

Yes indeed I was trying not to take pot shots at anybody. I was being told there was nothing wrong and I just wanted to see what others thought.

I just got off the phone with TSP. Turns out the 2 people I was working with on this were not in the shop. One had left and one was on personal business. So, it was a miscommunication issue that left me feeling that I was being blown off. Nobody IN the shop had any idea who I was or why I was having issues.

The motor will come out tonight and be on its way to TSP for diagnosis. One way or another they have assured me they will tell me what is wrong and fix it on their dime. That is the customer service from TSP I was accostomed to. We talked about the processes they go through to build the motors and was encouraged to believe they go through great pains to ensure consistant quality motors. You know stuff happens. I'm very glad I got to talk to TSP to straighten this out. I thought I was buying a motor from a stand up shop and it turns out I"m right. Those guys are ok by me.

TSP, sorry if I got you guys some bad juju with the thread. In the end though everybody sees you folks coming out of the woodwork to straighten me out. That speaks for itself.

 

There is nothing wrong with asking a question, lot of money spent and people get worried when something doesnt perform as expected. I wasnt referring to other vendors taking shots, just some people like to stir the pot for whatever reason and its a shame..

 

Wow.

I had suggested the 403 be purchased from TSP since they had them in stock and RJ needed something fast. I pointed to the fact that we were using them for parts for quite some time with great pricing and great service. I recommend TSP to anyone I do wirk for that needs parts. RJ does too.

That being said, RJ started this thread for opinions and not to bash. I read every post. Yes the general opinion was that those marks which I have seen in person are not normal and shouldnt be there. I touched them and had my fingernail catch on the marks.

When the motor first arrived RJ had a concern about marks and I went in person to see it. I suggested that he contact TSP but he stated that he already did and TSP without wanting to see the motor had insisted that it was fine and to run it. Why was it ok for Zack to diagnos an "ok to run" from the pics but now the pics arent good enough?

Its not a bash, but my observation is that all the marks are in the 6 o'clock position on multiple cylinders. Garbage in the bottom wouldnt be quite as discriminating as to where it scores. My forged motor sorced elswhere had not mark one when I received it or after 17k when I switched heads.

Regardless of the reason, TSP wadnt bashed or even named until someone of detective mentality did a search and discovered the name for themselves. It wasnt malicious. 55 posts by some 6-7 people doesnt constitute a crowd of vultures.

TSP's reputation for fast cars using real world pricing is intact in my opinion. Sheet happens, they said they would make good on it and I beleive them. As to who is at fault is silly but this motor had marks in the liners the day it was unboxed before installation because I saw them there. Once it is fixed and installed all with be happy and TSP is still on my list of shops I will do business with.

Keep it civil and eveyone can be happy with the final result.

RJ, I can come down Wednesday night to help pull out the motor.....2 beers and a pizza after it will make it all feel better once the motor is crated up.

 

Lol, I'll work some tonight bud and we'll see how it goes. I'll feel a lot better when I'm on the track again. This is the first time I'm in the country for the opening of the tracks. I've always been eating sand in some **** hole. I was looking forward to a nice spring in the hot rod. TSP said they are going to do everything they can to get me fixed up to enjoy at least part of the nice weather.
I believe them

 

Texas speed. Not sure if your rant was geared towards our shop or just a mis guided spray of fire at all the shops in this thread. The thread asked for engine builders opionion, mine was that I could not tell what happened by the pics and I offered to look at it for the guy. No bad mouthing intended or implied.

Nice to see you guys are in contact.

Maybe you could call and we could sing the chorus of "kumbaya". LOL

Kurt