New TFS 245cc heads..Questions..
09-11-2007, 10:02 AM
#41
Jesel is the the only ones that will work for ETP's I think.
Guess I better get rid of my stock rockers. Funny I've never heard of this from ET or AFR..... only until TFS come out and you HAVE to run after market rockers with there heads that they say ....oh ya you have to do it with every head. Sounds suspect to me.
Guess I better get rid of my stock rockers. Funny I've never heard of this from ET or AFR..... only until TFS come out and you HAVE to run after market rockers with there heads that they say ....oh ya you have to do it with every head. Sounds suspect to me.
09-11-2007, 12:24 PM
#42
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: "Sin City" Las Vegas
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had to send my AFR's back to AFR due to excessive wear. They replaced all the guides and valves..
This isnt new..I've heard by many guys that you cant run stock rockers (on most aftermarket heads)..I mean, I guess you can do anything you want. You just have to shim the **** out of them in order to get a decent wipe pattern. Its just wether or not you want to do it cheap (or right)..
This isnt new..I've heard by many guys that you cant run stock rockers (on most aftermarket heads)..I mean, I guess you can do anything you want. You just have to shim the **** out of them in order to get a decent wipe pattern. Its just wether or not you want to do it cheap (or right)..
Originally Posted by ATVracr
Jesel is the the only ones that will work for ETP's I think.
Guess I better get rid of my stock rockers. Funny I've never heard of this from ET or AFR..... only until TFS come out and you HAVE to run after market rockers with there heads that they say ....oh ya you have to do it with every head. Sounds suspect to me.
Guess I better get rid of my stock rockers. Funny I've never heard of this from ET or AFR..... only until TFS come out and you HAVE to run after market rockers with there heads that they say ....oh ya you have to do it with every head. Sounds suspect to me.
09-11-2007, 01:00 PM
#43
Originally Posted by AMERICAN_HP
I had to send my AFR's back to AFR due to excessive wear. They replaced all the guides and valves..
This isnt new..I've heard by many guys that you cant run stock rockers (on most aftermarket heads)..I mean, I guess you can do anything you want. You just have to shim the **** out of them in order to get a decent wipe pattern. Its just wether or not you want to do it cheap (or right)..
This isnt new..I've heard by many guys that you cant run stock rockers (on most aftermarket heads)..I mean, I guess you can do anything you want. You just have to shim the **** out of them in order to get a decent wipe pattern. Its just wether or not you want to do it cheap (or right)..
How about facts not he said she said.
So your telling me anyone with stock rockers on aftermarket heads is cheap and there rocker arm geometry is wrong? I call Shananagans!
I've never seen it posted by Tony Mamo or Carey or Craig at ETP.
09-11-2007, 01:04 PM
#45
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally have yet to see this problem.However doesn;t mean it doesn't exist. Could it be a specific problem with a brand of bronze guide ? I personally prefer Iron and PM guides. In fact I have a SBC at 427ci with Brodix heads and I had the bronze guides taken out and replaced with Iron guides and K liners to combat this wear issue. then again not everybody is runng .680 lift cams on a .850 base circle with RC and NZ lobes. It can cuase some wear issues regardless of what rocker you use. Bronze is just to soft for a DD IMO.
My bigger question is what the purpose behind using Bronze Guies outside of the fact that they are easier on tooling ? Is there some cost benefit ratio ?Why not Kliner Stock or Iron Guides ?
My bigger question is what the purpose behind using Bronze Guies outside of the fact that they are easier on tooling ? Is there some cost benefit ratio ?Why not Kliner Stock or Iron Guides ?
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
The stock GM heads have powdered metal guides and will not wear, but the stock rockers can still cause marks on the tops of the valves.
If you put bronze guides in a GM head the guides will wear if you run over .550" lift, you will probably see wear within 10,000 miles, and you will eventully see oil consumption. It depends on what oil is used, how often it is changed, etc but it is just a matter of time before you see oil consumption with ANY head that uses bronze guides and stock rockers over .550" lift.
If you put bronze guides in a GM head the guides will wear if you run over .550" lift, you will probably see wear within 10,000 miles, and you will eventully see oil consumption. It depends on what oil is used, how often it is changed, etc but it is just a matter of time before you see oil consumption with ANY head that uses bronze guides and stock rockers over .550" lift.
09-11-2007, 07:58 PM
#46
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: "Sin City" Las Vegas
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Theres no he said she said going on here....
1) I PERSONALLY had problems.. Dont get me wrong, I loved my heads, and would definately still have them today if they would have worked on my new setup.. I'm also not saying anything about AFR, I was making a comment about aftermarket heads in general.
2) Do a search..Jesus, theres a thread every other day about ET heads not allowing for the proper setup of stock rockers.. Last week, there was 3 threads on the first page alone..
3) No, im not saying "Its cheap." I'm saying that ALOT of guys would rather toss in a couple of washers and pray that they got it right, rather than setting up the proper geometry..
How many times have you heard of a guy installing pushrods WITHOUT taking the proper measurements to verify wether or not he's using the right size, only to find out he's got horrible valvetrain noise cause his guess was wrong.... There is AT LEAST 10 threads a week between the different forums for this EXACT reason.. All cause they dont want to buy a 30 fuking dollar pushrod length checker... Its called being CHEAP..
1) I PERSONALLY had problems.. Dont get me wrong, I loved my heads, and would definately still have them today if they would have worked on my new setup.. I'm also not saying anything about AFR, I was making a comment about aftermarket heads in general.
2) Do a search..Jesus, theres a thread every other day about ET heads not allowing for the proper setup of stock rockers.. Last week, there was 3 threads on the first page alone..
3) No, im not saying "Its cheap." I'm saying that ALOT of guys would rather toss in a couple of washers and pray that they got it right, rather than setting up the proper geometry..
How many times have you heard of a guy installing pushrods WITHOUT taking the proper measurements to verify wether or not he's using the right size, only to find out he's got horrible valvetrain noise cause his guess was wrong.... There is AT LEAST 10 threads a week between the different forums for this EXACT reason.. All cause they dont want to buy a 30 fuking dollar pushrod length checker... Its called being CHEAP..
Originally Posted by ATVracr
Ya .. I heard it from that one guy on that other site to
How about facts not he said she said.
So your telling me anyone with stock rockers on aftermarket heads is cheap and there rocker arm geometry is wrong? I call Shananagans!
I've never seen it posted by Tony Mamo or Carey or Craig at ETP.
How about facts not he said she said.
So your telling me anyone with stock rockers on aftermarket heads is cheap and there rocker arm geometry is wrong? I call Shananagans!
I've never seen it posted by Tony Mamo or Carey or Craig at ETP.
09-11-2007, 08:13 PM
#47
Originally Posted by ATVracr
Guess I better get rid of my stock rockers. Funny I've never heard of this from ET or AFR..... only until TFS come out and you HAVE to run after market rockers with there heads that they say ....oh ya you have to do it with every head. Sounds suspect to me.
2,0 and 0 respectfully.
It seems that if you don't already know it then it must be wrong or does not exist. How much more do you know than you did 2 years ago, or 3 years ago, or 5 years ago? How many things did you think were one way 5 years ago that as you learned you found were wrong? Or were not as you thought they were?
I have respect for what you do and have accomplished, you should have the same respect for others.
09-12-2007, 05:07 AM
#48
After reading this, I actuallt popped a valve cover and looked at my valves and stock rockers (runnign ET 240 heads)
Yes they are shimmed, and the wipe pattern was right in the center, nice and clean,and there was no signs of anything funny going on.
I guess there is a possibility that it can be a problem, but if you have a good engine builder that knows what he is doing, I think it can be done either way.
Yes they are shimmed, and the wipe pattern was right in the center, nice and clean,and there was no signs of anything funny going on.
I guess there is a possibility that it can be a problem, but if you have a good engine builder that knows what he is doing, I think it can be done either way.
09-12-2007, 06:41 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
How many in house dyno's does TFS have to perform durability testing on and how many does AFR and ET have?
2,0 and 0 respectfully.
It seems that if you don't already know it then it must be wrong or does not exist. How much more do you know than you did 2 years ago, or 3 years ago, or 5 years ago? How many things did you think were one way 5 years ago that as you learned you found were wrong? Or were not as you thought they were?
I have respect for what you do and have accomplished, you should have the same respect for others.
2,0 and 0 respectfully.
It seems that if you don't already know it then it must be wrong or does not exist. How much more do you know than you did 2 years ago, or 3 years ago, or 5 years ago? How many things did you think were one way 5 years ago that as you learned you found were wrong? Or were not as you thought they were?
I have respect for what you do and have accomplished, you should have the same respect for others.
To say that or imply that I'm cheap and dont know what I'm doing because I use stock rockers is just dumb.
Do you think a 6,7,or 8 hundred dollar set of rockers is going to break the bank when you have 30 to 40 thousand in the car? If I thought it was wrong I would not have put it on my car.
Have you tested any AFR or ET heads on your durability dyno?
If so what were the set ups? (head size, valves used, rockers used)
Thanks Brian and I apoligize if I offended you.
09-12-2007, 11:38 AM
#50
Guys,
Bronze guides (or guide liners) have been used for years in many performance applications (GM, Ford, Mopar, etc.) and represents the material of choice because they provide better "lubricity" and can run with less oil before sticking a valve. The downside (there's always a downside) is they do not last last a long as a powdered metal (or steel) guideliner which is naturally a harder material and resists wear a little better. Performance engine components usually come with a trade-off....that is certainly one of them, BUT, with the right valvetrain geometry that longevity issue can be greatly extended due to a proper wipe pattern and less valve side loading. Some individuals (and shops) just don't take the proper time to adjust stand height (or pushrod length with studmount set-ups)....especially if it calls for a lower stand height requiring machine work (it's easy to shim a pedastal mount higher). Also, while stock rockers have been and always will be very effective (from a cost and performance standpoint), they will always cause a little more wear simply because of they way they wipe across the valve. A roller tip will always give you far less travel than a stock style rocker but the problem there has always been the additional heft of the rocker causing valve control issues costing you more power than the better geometry helped. Fortunately there are some lighter weight options on the market now so its possible to improve your geometry and reduce your wipe pattern (and valve side loading) without costing you power from control related issues (valvefloat).
That said, everyone shouldn't go into a panic if they are running stock rockers. They have been working for years and if this was truly a problem of epic proportions (excessive guidewear and oil consumption), with the fact our heads (stock geometry) have been out there for over four years now, as well as many factory ported heads with replacement bronze guides or liners, I think there would be alot more threads of horror discussing it. With the Internet, bad news travels fast as most of you know.
Are the stock rockers effective?....yes. Do they offer some small compromises?....yes again. Is the aftermarket finally responding with better products more aimed at hydraulic roller applications and lighter weight?....thankfully yes again.
The key is, regardless of the set-up you have, to spend the time to center the wipe pattern and optimize geometry and guide wear concerns will always be minimized. But to expect a performance head with bronze guides to maintain the same guidewear as a head with a powdered metal or steel guideliner when the miles really start adding up just isnt realistic. Much like performance valvesprings need to be periodically replaced if you want optimal performance and reliability. Compromises....there just the nature of what we are involved in. Alot of people take for granted the power levels these modified engines produce (the "LS" engine platforms really pushing the envelope of late). With the latest advancements in engine design and cylinder heads we are thankfully involved in this hobby when you can drive a legitamate 10 second daily driver, but make no mistake about the fact it wont live as long as your stock 03' F-Body or C5 parked in your driveway before it needs a freshen up. The factory is closing the gap with engines like the LS7, but performance engines will always represent some trade-offs.
Hope this helps clear up a few things....
Tony
Bronze guides (or guide liners) have been used for years in many performance applications (GM, Ford, Mopar, etc.) and represents the material of choice because they provide better "lubricity" and can run with less oil before sticking a valve. The downside (there's always a downside) is they do not last last a long as a powdered metal (or steel) guideliner which is naturally a harder material and resists wear a little better. Performance engine components usually come with a trade-off....that is certainly one of them, BUT, with the right valvetrain geometry that longevity issue can be greatly extended due to a proper wipe pattern and less valve side loading. Some individuals (and shops) just don't take the proper time to adjust stand height (or pushrod length with studmount set-ups)....especially if it calls for a lower stand height requiring machine work (it's easy to shim a pedastal mount higher). Also, while stock rockers have been and always will be very effective (from a cost and performance standpoint), they will always cause a little more wear simply because of they way they wipe across the valve. A roller tip will always give you far less travel than a stock style rocker but the problem there has always been the additional heft of the rocker causing valve control issues costing you more power than the better geometry helped. Fortunately there are some lighter weight options on the market now so its possible to improve your geometry and reduce your wipe pattern (and valve side loading) without costing you power from control related issues (valvefloat).
That said, everyone shouldn't go into a panic if they are running stock rockers. They have been working for years and if this was truly a problem of epic proportions (excessive guidewear and oil consumption), with the fact our heads (stock geometry) have been out there for over four years now, as well as many factory ported heads with replacement bronze guides or liners, I think there would be alot more threads of horror discussing it. With the Internet, bad news travels fast as most of you know.
Are the stock rockers effective?....yes. Do they offer some small compromises?....yes again. Is the aftermarket finally responding with better products more aimed at hydraulic roller applications and lighter weight?....thankfully yes again.
The key is, regardless of the set-up you have, to spend the time to center the wipe pattern and optimize geometry and guide wear concerns will always be minimized. But to expect a performance head with bronze guides to maintain the same guidewear as a head with a powdered metal or steel guideliner when the miles really start adding up just isnt realistic. Much like performance valvesprings need to be periodically replaced if you want optimal performance and reliability. Compromises....there just the nature of what we are involved in. Alot of people take for granted the power levels these modified engines produce (the "LS" engine platforms really pushing the envelope of late). With the latest advancements in engine design and cylinder heads we are thankfully involved in this hobby when you can drive a legitamate 10 second daily driver, but make no mistake about the fact it wont live as long as your stock 03' F-Body or C5 parked in your driveway before it needs a freshen up. The factory is closing the gap with engines like the LS7, but performance engines will always represent some trade-offs.
Hope this helps clear up a few things....
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 09-12-2007 at 11:48 AM.
09-12-2007, 12:51 PM
#51
Originally Posted by ATVracr
Have you tested any AFR or ET heads on your durability dyno?
If so what were the set ups? (head size, valves used, rockers used)
If so what were the set ups? (head size, valves used, rockers used)
We have replaced guides in several sets of AFR heads due to oil consumption. This is because the AFR heads have been out the longest and have the most miles on them and were run with stock rockers and bronze guides. The wear was not because of material defects, quality problems or anything of the sort. Once again, any head with GM geometry and BRONZE guides and stock rockers running over .550" lift is going to experience guide wear.
A stock rocker arm actually ROCKS the valve open like a rocking chair, they should never "sweep" or scrub, but they scrub after .550" lift.
Shimming them up only makes the scrub worse.
09-12-2007, 01:15 PM
#52
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
not to negate the scrubbing conversation here but I have yet to really see any of this out here in the real world. I fial to see how this is not an issue on a honda motor which uses a very similar setup and can run high lift IE close to .600 and use bronze guides with a similar follower contact setup and not have wear issues.
It could be that the guide wear has absolutely nothing to do with the rocker and is just the nature of bronze guides. your running a very hard sticky material Steel/stainless in a very soft metal bronze.
then again I recomend running high additive oils like V50 valvoline in normal wieghts and the euro spec oils to help cut down on scuffing wear in these motors.
but to just say that non roller rockers cuase scuffing seems a bit silly from my perspective. The way the tip of the rocker is designed its got to have close to the same contact friction as a roller tip.A roller tip still will side load a valve even a roller tip will still push the valve across the Arc of travel. you cannot get away from angular loading in a valvetrian. you can minimize it but never eliminate it.
It could be that the guide wear has absolutely nothing to do with the rocker and is just the nature of bronze guides. your running a very hard sticky material Steel/stainless in a very soft metal bronze.
then again I recomend running high additive oils like V50 valvoline in normal wieghts and the euro spec oils to help cut down on scuffing wear in these motors.
but to just say that non roller rockers cuase scuffing seems a bit silly from my perspective. The way the tip of the rocker is designed its got to have close to the same contact friction as a roller tip.A roller tip still will side load a valve even a roller tip will still push the valve across the Arc of travel. you cannot get away from angular loading in a valvetrian. you can minimize it but never eliminate it.
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
AFR 205's with stock rockers, and they experienced guide wear.
We have replaced guides in several sets of AFR heads due to oil consumption. This is because the AFR heads have been out the longest and have the most miles on them and were run with stock rockers and bronze guides. The wear was not because of material defects, quality problems or anything of the sort. Once again, any head with GM geometry and BRONZE guides and stock rockers running over .550" lift is going to experience guide wear.
A stock rocker arm actually ROCKS the valve open like a rocking chair, they should never "sweep" or scrub, but they scrub after .550" lift.
Shimming them up only makes the scrub worse.
We have replaced guides in several sets of AFR heads due to oil consumption. This is because the AFR heads have been out the longest and have the most miles on them and were run with stock rockers and bronze guides. The wear was not because of material defects, quality problems or anything of the sort. Once again, any head with GM geometry and BRONZE guides and stock rockers running over .550" lift is going to experience guide wear.
A stock rocker arm actually ROCKS the valve open like a rocking chair, they should never "sweep" or scrub, but they scrub after .550" lift.
Shimming them up only makes the scrub worse.
09-12-2007, 02:06 PM
#53
Tony, Thanks for the info.
Brian,
have you done any tests to see how much longer the roller rockers will help the guides last compared to stock?
And since you guys have done all the testing roughly how long will a bronze guided head with stock rockers last? 10, 20 , 30 thousand miles?
Brian,
have you done any tests to see how much longer the roller rockers will help the guides last compared to stock?
And since you guys have done all the testing roughly how long will a bronze guided head with stock rockers last? 10, 20 , 30 thousand miles?
09-12-2007, 04:27 PM
#54
Originally Posted by ATVracr
Tony, Thanks for the info.
Brian,
have you done any tests to see how much longer the roller rockers will help the guides last compared to stock?
And since you guys have done all the testing roughly how long will a bronze guided head with stock rockers last? 10, 20 , 30 thousand miles?
Brian,
have you done any tests to see how much longer the roller rockers will help the guides last compared to stock?
And since you guys have done all the testing roughly how long will a bronze guided head with stock rockers last? 10, 20 , 30 thousand miles?
09-12-2007, 04:38 PM
#55
Originally Posted by LS1curious
not to negate the scrubbing conversation here but I have yet to really see any of this out here in the real world. I fial to see how this is not an issue on a honda motor which uses a very similar setup and can run high lift IE close to .600 and use bronze guides with a similar follower contact setup and not have wear issues.
It could be that the guide wear has absolutely nothing to do with the rocker and is just the nature of bronze guides. your running a very hard sticky material Steel/stainless in a very soft metal bronze.
then again I recomend running high additive oils like V50 valvoline in normal wieghts and the euro spec oils to help cut down on scuffing wear in these motors.
but to just say that non roller rockers cuase scuffing seems a bit silly from my perspective. The way the tip of the rocker is designed its got to have close to the same contact friction as a roller tip.A roller tip still will side load a valve even a roller tip will still push the valve across the Arc of travel. you cannot get away from angular loading in a valvetrian. you can minimize it but never eliminate it.
It could be that the guide wear has absolutely nothing to do with the rocker and is just the nature of bronze guides. your running a very hard sticky material Steel/stainless in a very soft metal bronze.
then again I recomend running high additive oils like V50 valvoline in normal wieghts and the euro spec oils to help cut down on scuffing wear in these motors.
but to just say that non roller rockers cuase scuffing seems a bit silly from my perspective. The way the tip of the rocker is designed its got to have close to the same contact friction as a roller tip.A roller tip still will side load a valve even a roller tip will still push the valve across the Arc of travel. you cannot get away from angular loading in a valvetrian. you can minimize it but never eliminate it.
How many of those same heads had the type of damage to the valve tips that AFR was covering?
How many of those valve tips actually had the required Rockwell hardness but still looked like crap?
A roller tip ROLLS, a stock rocker SCRUBS across the top of the valve when it goes past .550" lift, and it causes guide wear as well as some valve tip damage. If the stock rocker scubbed at the initial opening when spring pressure is lowest you would probably never see valve tip and guide damage. But since the rocker is scrubbing at the point of HIGHEST spring pressure, it causes damage.
09-12-2007, 06:17 PM
#56
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
How many aftermarket LS heads with bronze guides have you disassembled and checked guide wear on?
I have seen enough sets to know that this whole guide wear argument is way overhyped.
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
How many of those same heads had the type of damage to the valve tips that AFR was covering?
I have seen stock valve's running .650 with stock rockers I have seen Rev valve Running .650 no problems. Why isn't it a problem on the ASA engine that runs stock rockers ?Those motors turn 4800-7500 rpm for 500 miles with .600 lift cams
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
How many of those valve tips actually had the required Rockwell hardness but still looked like crap?
How many had sufficient hardening depth? you can harden the top .005 of the valve tip and sure it'll be sufficiently hardened. that doesn;t mean the depth of the hardening was sufficient and that the materials to construct the valve were adequately speced out.
Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
A roller tip ROLLS, a stock rocker SCRUBS across the top of the valve when it goes past .550" lift, and it causes guide wear as well as some valve tip damage. If the stock rocker scubbed at the initial opening when spring pressure is lowest you would probably never see valve tip and guide damage. But since the rocker is scrubbing at the point of HIGHEST spring pressure, it causes damage.
The issue could be the material the valve is made out of maybe the valves you are talking about have a higher friction coffeicent then a steel stock valve.That could easily explain the guide wear.Has anyone done any materials testing.
I have taken apart heads with .800 lift cams that have beautiful valve guides and I have taken apart heads with .500 lift cams with tons of wear. Is it the guide or the rocker ? All had optimized geomtery.
09-13-2007, 03:11 PM
#57
Originally Posted by LS1curious
I have seen enough sets to know that this whole guide wear argument is way overhyped.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
the srcub is of little consequence.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
I have taken apart heads with .800 lift cams that have beautiful valve guides and I have taken apart heads with .500 lift cams with tons of wear. Is it the guide or the rocker ? All had optimized geomtery.
Last edited by Brian Tooley Racing; 09-13-2007 at 03:22 PM.
09-13-2007, 03:49 PM
#58
9 Second Club
iTrader: (22)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I ran stock rockers and daily drove my T/A it beat the **** out of my guides and I would have to replace a few every season. When I switched to comp rollers everything was mint.
