Pleas Tell Me How To Breakin New Motor !!!!!
11-06-2007, 05:43 PM
#21
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Switched to VR1 20-50 and still using oil. 1/3 of a qt in 530 miles.
I can't believe this engine is going to use oil also....this is why I replaced last short block.
I have almost 1200 miles on it. Is there something else I should do or try!!!!
DH
I can't believe this engine is going to use oil also....this is why I replaced last short block.
I have almost 1200 miles on it. Is there something else I should do or try!!!!
DH
11-06-2007, 06:12 PM
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I know you can't compare an engine built to racing spec to a stock motor, but my LS1 consumed oil until just after the 5000 mile mark. I didn't drive it like I stole it. I changed out the factory oil (Mobil 1, I think) at 500 miles and used dino until it stopped using oil. Next change went to synthetic. It uses almost no oil now.
And don't roll in on me for the next question. Old school technique was to use non-detergent oil for breaking in rebuilt engines to help the rings to seat. From what I heard, Rotella is a very high detergent oil. Is is possible that could extend the time it takes the motor to break in, much like a synthetic?
And don't roll in on me for the next question. Old school technique was to use non-detergent oil for breaking in rebuilt engines to help the rings to seat. From what I heard, Rotella is a very high detergent oil. Is is possible that could extend the time it takes the motor to break in, much like a synthetic?
11-07-2007, 12:28 AM
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An Elite, AMW and two smaller condensing filters. Two in the manifold to intake line and two in the valve cover to airbridge (LS2 TB) line. There is very little oil in them.
DH
11-07-2007, 07:25 AM
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I had 2 in my setup. One in the valley cover to manifold path and one between the valve cover and throttle body, actually the airbridge, NW90.
The main one would get oil and the valve cover to TB would not. I was still getting oil in my intake. I reversed the plumbing and started to get oil in the VC to TB can but I crushed a piston with a washer, long story, before I had a chance to see if that is where it was coming from. I would suggest checking your intake for oil at least. Also, are the heads on the new motor new too, or from the old motor? If they are from the old motor you could have excessive valve guide clearance, and/or some bad seals. I had relatively new AFR heads but I had quite a bit of valve guide clearance when I took them off to put on the new motor. I only discovered it because I pulled the valvetrain apart when the heads were off.
The main one would get oil and the valve cover to TB would not. I was still getting oil in my intake. I reversed the plumbing and started to get oil in the VC to TB can but I crushed a piston with a washer, long story, before I had a chance to see if that is where it was coming from. I would suggest checking your intake for oil at least. Also, are the heads on the new motor new too, or from the old motor? If they are from the old motor you could have excessive valve guide clearance, and/or some bad seals. I had relatively new AFR heads but I had quite a bit of valve guide clearance when I took them off to put on the new motor. I only discovered it because I pulled the valvetrain apart when the heads were off.
11-07-2007, 11:34 PM
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I had 2 in my setup. One in the valley cover to manifold path and one between the valve cover and throttle body, actually the airbridge, NW90.
The main one would get oil and the valve cover to TB would not. I was still getting oil in my intake. I reversed the plumbing and started to get oil in the VC to TB can but I crushed a piston with a washer, long story, before I had a chance to see if that is where it was coming from. I would suggest checking your intake for oil at least. Also, are the heads on the new motor new too, or from the old motor? If they are from the old motor you could have excessive valve guide clearance, and/or some bad seals. I had relatively new AFR heads but I had quite a bit of valve guide clearance when I took them off to put on the new motor. I only discovered it because I pulled the valvetrain apart when the heads were off.
The main one would get oil and the valve cover to TB would not. I was still getting oil in my intake. I reversed the plumbing and started to get oil in the VC to TB can but I crushed a piston with a washer, long story, before I had a chance to see if that is where it was coming from. I would suggest checking your intake for oil at least. Also, are the heads on the new motor new too, or from the old motor? If they are from the old motor you could have excessive valve guide clearance, and/or some bad seals. I had relatively new AFR heads but I had quite a bit of valve guide clearance when I took them off to put on the new motor. I only discovered it because I pulled the valvetrain apart when the heads were off.
I've heard some stories where it took a few thousand miles till oil consumption stoped.
I have a budy who just switched to synthetic after 4K on a new motor and his consumption went to almost zero.
Going to do a couple more dino oil changes and then go to synthetic before first track day on Dec.12
DH
11-08-2007, 10:32 AM
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NP, I know what you've been through from the 'other' board, so it occurred to me that might be a common denominator. Here's hoping it will calm down on eating the oil.
11-08-2007, 11:22 AM
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There isn't a sticky on this yet? We need a good post up....but i dropped the piston rings off number 8 after 2500 miles with valvoline 5w-30 - friggin' TPI. 
11-08-2007, 03:59 PM
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Hi Folks
New here, I lurked for a while, soaking up info, especially about cams, didn't really have anything to add untill now. I'm an old Ford FE & SBF fan, but like playing with anything.
I just recently built a little 4 cyl, where the cam went flat, cam & lifters were sent back to the manufacturer, everything Rockwelled out fine, a new cam was cut with a little larger B/C, thinking maybe that had something to do with it, I didn't think so, since I've run smaller than this one was.
To make this short, there has been so much out about oils now, EOS has been discontinued, additives are coming out of the oils.
So I went with the Bradd Penn Racing oil, they have a good percentage of Zinc, the 30 weight brakin oil has a slightly higher percentage of Zinc than their other oils, 10w -30, 20w -50 , 50w, 70w and even a line of gear oils.
Here's their link: www.bradpennracing.com
New here, I lurked for a while, soaking up info, especially about cams, didn't really have anything to add untill now. I'm an old Ford FE & SBF fan, but like playing with anything.
I just recently built a little 4 cyl, where the cam went flat, cam & lifters were sent back to the manufacturer, everything Rockwelled out fine, a new cam was cut with a little larger B/C, thinking maybe that had something to do with it, I didn't think so, since I've run smaller than this one was.
To make this short, there has been so much out about oils now, EOS has been discontinued, additives are coming out of the oils.
So I went with the Bradd Penn Racing oil, they have a good percentage of Zinc, the 30 weight brakin oil has a slightly higher percentage of Zinc than their other oils, 10w -30, 20w -50 , 50w, 70w and even a line of gear oils.
Here's their link: www.bradpennracing.com
11-08-2007, 05:37 PM
#30
the whole deal with zddp in the oil and engine breakin is simply this:
off the shelf API oil that is API-SL or API-SM has reduced levels of zinc and phosphorus to help with emissions because these elements (primarily Phosphorus) are known to kill catalytic converters and it is "believed" that enough oil gets burned in the combustion process over time to reduce the effectiveness of the catalytic converter. Given the millions of cars, where x percent burns oil, and they want 10 year warranties on catalytic converters, bla bla bla.
The catch with reducing the level of Phosphorus in oil is it's basically only in ZDDP, so they reduce the level of ZDDP. ZDDP is the primary anti-wear/detergent type additive that has been used for the past 30 years. With late model engines being all roller lifters, this isn't that big a problem and the replacement antiwear additives they're using in place of zddp seems to work. You don't see many cam/lifter failures on engines year 2000 and later. The problem lies with (older) engines running flat tappet lifters- in this case there's a much greater load point of the lifter riding on the cam lobe which requires oil with anti-wear additives.
Using API-SL or API-SM oils in an engine with flat tappet lifters have resulted in lifter and camshaft failures, you can research this! And, this is most likely to happen on break-in of a flat tappet lifter/camshaft when wear is greatest and the need for anti-wear additives are highest. In the case of breaking in a roller lifter camshaft, there is less friction because the lifter rolls on the cam lobe and should make it obvious you don't need to have an oil with as much anti-wear (zddp) additives. However, should you run greater valve spring pressures (which will obviously increase the load/friction of the roller lifter on the cam lobe) then more anti-wear additives than what's in API-SM oil is probably a good thing.
API-SM oil has a limit of Phosporus, which ultimately limits the amount of zddp in the oil. But there are other anti-wear additives and the general consensus is the diesel oils (co-rated API-SM/CJ-4 [or CH/CI-4] ) typically have more antiwear additives than non-diesel oils. They are :
mobil delvac1300 super 15w-40
chevron delo 15w-40
rotella, amalie, napa fleet, anything that's 15w-40 pretty much.
The definition of "detergent" regarding motor oil taken from bobistheoilguy:
Is a lubricating oil possessing special sludge-dispersing properties usually conferred on the oil by the incorporation of special additives. Detergent oils hold formed sludge particles in suspension and thus promote cleanliness especially in internal-combustion engines. However detergent oils do not contain "detergents" such as those used for cleaning of laundry or dishes. Also detergent oils do not clean already "dirty" engines, but rather keep in suspension the sludge that petroleum oil forms so that the engine remains cleaner for longer period. The formed sludge particles are either filtered out by Oil Filters or drained out when oil is changed.
you use a non-detergent motor oil in your engine and you will cause deposits, the rings will stick, and you will have major problems! non-detergent motor oil is API-SA or SB and the only thing you use it for are things like air compressors- where there is no combustion. Do not use non-detergent motor oil in your engine!!! There is a huge effort underway by the API, ILSAC, and other oil committees to ban API-SA/SB oils from store shelves or being marketed for automotive use for this reason!
As for break-in, cylinder pressure is what seats and seals rings and you get that by putting a load on the engine. My opinion fwiw, it's a very simple process and if you have major oil consumption past the rings then it's the builders fault. About the only thing you can do to cause the rings not to seat is start the engine and let it idle at 800 rpms for the first hours. I would run a 15w-40 oil and drive the car moderate, find some hills and let the car pull in the 2000-3000 rpm range, no need to wind it out to 4000+.
off the shelf API oil that is API-SL or API-SM has reduced levels of zinc and phosphorus to help with emissions because these elements (primarily Phosphorus) are known to kill catalytic converters and it is "believed" that enough oil gets burned in the combustion process over time to reduce the effectiveness of the catalytic converter. Given the millions of cars, where x percent burns oil, and they want 10 year warranties on catalytic converters, bla bla bla.
The catch with reducing the level of Phosphorus in oil is it's basically only in ZDDP, so they reduce the level of ZDDP. ZDDP is the primary anti-wear/detergent type additive that has been used for the past 30 years. With late model engines being all roller lifters, this isn't that big a problem and the replacement antiwear additives they're using in place of zddp seems to work. You don't see many cam/lifter failures on engines year 2000 and later. The problem lies with (older) engines running flat tappet lifters- in this case there's a much greater load point of the lifter riding on the cam lobe which requires oil with anti-wear additives.
Using API-SL or API-SM oils in an engine with flat tappet lifters have resulted in lifter and camshaft failures, you can research this! And, this is most likely to happen on break-in of a flat tappet lifter/camshaft when wear is greatest and the need for anti-wear additives are highest. In the case of breaking in a roller lifter camshaft, there is less friction because the lifter rolls on the cam lobe and should make it obvious you don't need to have an oil with as much anti-wear (zddp) additives. However, should you run greater valve spring pressures (which will obviously increase the load/friction of the roller lifter on the cam lobe) then more anti-wear additives than what's in API-SM oil is probably a good thing.
API-SM oil has a limit of Phosporus, which ultimately limits the amount of zddp in the oil. But there are other anti-wear additives and the general consensus is the diesel oils (co-rated API-SM/CJ-4 [or CH/CI-4] ) typically have more antiwear additives than non-diesel oils. They are :
mobil delvac1300 super 15w-40
chevron delo 15w-40
rotella, amalie, napa fleet, anything that's 15w-40 pretty much.
The definition of "detergent" regarding motor oil taken from bobistheoilguy:
Is a lubricating oil possessing special sludge-dispersing properties usually conferred on the oil by the incorporation of special additives. Detergent oils hold formed sludge particles in suspension and thus promote cleanliness especially in internal-combustion engines. However detergent oils do not contain "detergents" such as those used for cleaning of laundry or dishes. Also detergent oils do not clean already "dirty" engines, but rather keep in suspension the sludge that petroleum oil forms so that the engine remains cleaner for longer period. The formed sludge particles are either filtered out by Oil Filters or drained out when oil is changed.
you use a non-detergent motor oil in your engine and you will cause deposits, the rings will stick, and you will have major problems! non-detergent motor oil is API-SA or SB and the only thing you use it for are things like air compressors- where there is no combustion. Do not use non-detergent motor oil in your engine!!! There is a huge effort underway by the API, ILSAC, and other oil committees to ban API-SA/SB oils from store shelves or being marketed for automotive use for this reason!
As for break-in, cylinder pressure is what seats and seals rings and you get that by putting a load on the engine. My opinion fwiw, it's a very simple process and if you have major oil consumption past the rings then it's the builders fault. About the only thing you can do to cause the rings not to seat is start the engine and let it idle at 800 rpms for the first hours. I would run a 15w-40 oil and drive the car moderate, find some hills and let the car pull in the 2000-3000 rpm range, no need to wind it out to 4000+.
12-22-2007, 09:16 PM
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the whole deal with zddp in the oil and engine breakin is simply this:
off the shelf API oil that is API-SL or API-SM has reduced levels of zinc and phosphorus to help with emissions because these elements (primarily Phosphorus) are known to kill catalytic converters and it is "believed" that enough oil gets burned in the combustion process over time to reduce the effectiveness of the catalytic converter. Given the millions of cars, where x percent burns oil, and they want 10 year warranties on catalytic converters, bla bla bla.
The catch with reducing the level of Phosphorus in oil is it's basically only in ZDDP, so they reduce the level of ZDDP. ZDDP is the primary anti-wear/detergent type additive that has been used for the past 30 years. With late model engines being all roller lifters, this isn't that big a problem and the replacement antiwear additives they're using in place of zddp seems to work. You don't see many cam/lifter failures on engines year 2000 and later. The problem lies with (older) engines running flat tappet lifters- in this case there's a much greater load point of the lifter riding on the cam lobe which requires oil with anti-wear additives.
Using API-SL or API-SM oils in an engine with flat tappet lifters have resulted in lifter and camshaft failures, you can research this! And, this is most likely to happen on break-in of a flat tappet lifter/camshaft when wear is greatest and the need for anti-wear additives are highest. In the case of breaking in a roller lifter camshaft, there is less friction because the lifter rolls on the cam lobe and should make it obvious you don't need to have an oil with as much anti-wear (zddp) additives. However, should you run greater valve spring pressures (which will obviously increase the load/friction of the roller lifter on the cam lobe) then more anti-wear additives than what's in API-SM oil is probably a good thing.
API-SM oil has a limit of Phosporus, which ultimately limits the amount of zddp in the oil. But there are other anti-wear additives and the general consensus is the diesel oils (co-rated API-SM/CJ-4 [or CH/CI-4] ) typically have more antiwear additives than non-diesel oils. They are :
mobil delvac1300 super 15w-40
chevron delo 15w-40
rotella, amalie, napa fleet, anything that's 15w-40 pretty much.
The definition of "detergent" regarding motor oil taken from bobistheoilguy:
Is a lubricating oil possessing special sludge-dispersing properties usually conferred on the oil by the incorporation of special additives. Detergent oils hold formed sludge particles in suspension and thus promote cleanliness especially in internal-combustion engines. However detergent oils do not contain "detergents" such as those used for cleaning of laundry or dishes. Also detergent oils do not clean already "dirty" engines, but rather keep in suspension the sludge that petroleum oil forms so that the engine remains cleaner for longer period. The formed sludge particles are either filtered out by Oil Filters or drained out when oil is changed.
you use a non-detergent motor oil in your engine and you will cause deposits, the rings will stick, and you will have major problems! non-detergent motor oil is API-SA or SB and the only thing you use it for are things like air compressors- where there is no combustion. Do not use non-detergent motor oil in your engine!!! There is a huge effort underway by the API, ILSAC, and other oil committees to ban API-SA/SB oils from store shelves or being marketed for automotive use for this reason!
As for break-in, cylinder pressure is what seats and seals rings and you get that by putting a load on the engine. My opinion fwiw, it's a very simple process and if you have major oil consumption past the rings then it's the builders fault. About the only thing you can do to cause the rings not to seat is start the engine and let it idle at 800 rpms for the first hours. I would run a 15w-40 oil and drive the car moderate, find some hills and let the car pull in the 2000-3000 rpm range, no need to wind it out to 4000+.
off the shelf API oil that is API-SL or API-SM has reduced levels of zinc and phosphorus to help with emissions because these elements (primarily Phosphorus) are known to kill catalytic converters and it is "believed" that enough oil gets burned in the combustion process over time to reduce the effectiveness of the catalytic converter. Given the millions of cars, where x percent burns oil, and they want 10 year warranties on catalytic converters, bla bla bla.
The catch with reducing the level of Phosphorus in oil is it's basically only in ZDDP, so they reduce the level of ZDDP. ZDDP is the primary anti-wear/detergent type additive that has been used for the past 30 years. With late model engines being all roller lifters, this isn't that big a problem and the replacement antiwear additives they're using in place of zddp seems to work. You don't see many cam/lifter failures on engines year 2000 and later. The problem lies with (older) engines running flat tappet lifters- in this case there's a much greater load point of the lifter riding on the cam lobe which requires oil with anti-wear additives.
Using API-SL or API-SM oils in an engine with flat tappet lifters have resulted in lifter and camshaft failures, you can research this! And, this is most likely to happen on break-in of a flat tappet lifter/camshaft when wear is greatest and the need for anti-wear additives are highest. In the case of breaking in a roller lifter camshaft, there is less friction because the lifter rolls on the cam lobe and should make it obvious you don't need to have an oil with as much anti-wear (zddp) additives. However, should you run greater valve spring pressures (which will obviously increase the load/friction of the roller lifter on the cam lobe) then more anti-wear additives than what's in API-SM oil is probably a good thing.
API-SM oil has a limit of Phosporus, which ultimately limits the amount of zddp in the oil. But there are other anti-wear additives and the general consensus is the diesel oils (co-rated API-SM/CJ-4 [or CH/CI-4] ) typically have more antiwear additives than non-diesel oils. They are :
mobil delvac1300 super 15w-40
chevron delo 15w-40
rotella, amalie, napa fleet, anything that's 15w-40 pretty much.
The definition of "detergent" regarding motor oil taken from bobistheoilguy:
Is a lubricating oil possessing special sludge-dispersing properties usually conferred on the oil by the incorporation of special additives. Detergent oils hold formed sludge particles in suspension and thus promote cleanliness especially in internal-combustion engines. However detergent oils do not contain "detergents" such as those used for cleaning of laundry or dishes. Also detergent oils do not clean already "dirty" engines, but rather keep in suspension the sludge that petroleum oil forms so that the engine remains cleaner for longer period. The formed sludge particles are either filtered out by Oil Filters or drained out when oil is changed.
you use a non-detergent motor oil in your engine and you will cause deposits, the rings will stick, and you will have major problems! non-detergent motor oil is API-SA or SB and the only thing you use it for are things like air compressors- where there is no combustion. Do not use non-detergent motor oil in your engine!!! There is a huge effort underway by the API, ILSAC, and other oil committees to ban API-SA/SB oils from store shelves or being marketed for automotive use for this reason!
As for break-in, cylinder pressure is what seats and seals rings and you get that by putting a load on the engine. My opinion fwiw, it's a very simple process and if you have major oil consumption past the rings then it's the builders fault. About the only thing you can do to cause the rings not to seat is start the engine and let it idle at 800 rpms for the first hours. I would run a 15w-40 oil and drive the car moderate, find some hills and let the car pull in the 2000-3000 rpm range, no need to wind it out to 4000+.
DH
12-23-2007, 05:43 AM
#32
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John B nailed it early in the post. Be absolutely sure to use dino oil for break-in, not synthetic. Rings need friction to seat properly and if they don't seat early, they won't later, either. The anti-friction additives apply more to flat tappet engines than rollers. After initial break-in, pick a good synthetic like Mobil 1 or Amsoil and you should be fine.
It doesn't surprise me to hear of one using a bit of oil, the rings on these engines are thin and low tension which will allow a bit of oil blowby. Head to the drag strip and you'll find most of the 900+hp engines burn a bit of oil. Unless it's causing a carbon build-up or fouling the plugs, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're worried about it, do a leak-down and/or compression check. If they come back fine, drive hell out of it and keep an eye on the dipstick, top off as needed.
It doesn't surprise me to hear of one using a bit of oil, the rings on these engines are thin and low tension which will allow a bit of oil blowby. Head to the drag strip and you'll find most of the 900+hp engines burn a bit of oil. Unless it's causing a carbon build-up or fouling the plugs, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're worried about it, do a leak-down and/or compression check. If they come back fine, drive hell out of it and keep an eye on the dipstick, top off as needed.
12-23-2007, 08:24 AM
#33
I have always used 30 wt Rotella for initial 90 minute break-in. Then switch to a good 10W-30 or 10W-40 for the first 500 miles. After that I use Amsoil 10W-40. Never had a problem with rings seating, just that blasted pcv system sucking oil. I have a fix for that I am getting ready to try when I put my new engine together.
12-24-2007, 04:10 AM
#35
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well i ran regular oil in my car, i didnt start it before i took it to my tuner, cause it wasnt tuned for the injectors or anything, and you do NOT want the car running rich before you break it in.
Dan Millen gave it hell on the dyno to break it in as far as i know, car doesnt burn any oil or anything, and 505hp later, im happy with it, especailly cause i have a lot left on the table with other mods.
Dan Millen gave it hell on the dyno to break it in as far as i know, car doesnt burn any oil or anything, and 505hp later, im happy with it, especailly cause i have a lot left on the table with other mods.
What did he put in it for break in
Are these the guys from Best Machine ?
I have heard of Chuck Millen
They use the green stuff
Brad Penn oil for break in and racing
Thanks
John Sr.
12-24-2007, 08:13 AM
#36
The biggest mistake is starting the car and letting it idle to fully warm up,expecially if the tune is not right.If the tune is rich in open loop(warm up) it can wash the rings down and I've seen it many times.
What I do -Put a basic tune in the car.Start it up with my scanner on and watch 02 readings ect.Give it some revs and hold rpm at 2000 for 10-20 seconds at a time.Let run like this for 5-10 minutes to check for leaks,fill coolant.Shut car off and dump oil. Fill with oil,start up and hit the road to load the motor.I like 1/4-1/2 throttle blasts to 4000rpm.I ussually put 20-40 miles on the car(while tuning) before the customer gets it back.Then I have them bring it back at 500 miles,change the oil and do some dyno runs to fine tune it.
This has worked very well for us.
For race cars we heat them up then start hammering them on the dyno.This is fine since they are short term motor's.When we pull them apart the bearings are almost shot.
What I do -Put a basic tune in the car.Start it up with my scanner on and watch 02 readings ect.Give it some revs and hold rpm at 2000 for 10-20 seconds at a time.Let run like this for 5-10 minutes to check for leaks,fill coolant.Shut car off and dump oil. Fill with oil,start up and hit the road to load the motor.I like 1/4-1/2 throttle blasts to 4000rpm.I ussually put 20-40 miles on the car(while tuning) before the customer gets it back.Then I have them bring it back at 500 miles,change the oil and do some dyno runs to fine tune it.
This has worked very well for us.
For race cars we heat them up then start hammering them on the dyno.This is fine since they are short term motor's.When we pull them apart the bearings are almost shot.
12-24-2007, 03:19 PM
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dan millen is the owner of livernois motorsports and the driver of his own outlaw 10.5 car.....dan is the man when it comes to tuning....i have yet to see him **** up a customers car. he is one of the best tuner i know of!!!!!!!!! he will not quit until it's right. i have seen him tune stock short block automatic ls2 cars to over 650 rwhp!!!!!!
12-28-2007, 05:14 PM
#39
