what would your set up be for 600rwhp n/a
06-24-2008, 07:05 PM
#62
Thats right, Barry. Air-Flo. There is noone better. 35 years building race engines and his shop is in the same location it was when he started. That says something right there. He has more experience than any builder or sponsor on this site will ever have individually. I personally see these cars at the local car shows, they do not lie. Problem is, 99% of people here think the sponsors are the end all of LSx engines and if they can't make the power, noone can. Wrong. People who don't have to advertise are the bad asses. His shop is always full of about a dozen C6 Z06 heads from people all over the country wanting his porting work, a few C5R builds and about a dozen big cube LSx builds going on, including 6-7 second single turbo engine builds.
I went through sponsors for my first build, now I'm going through a race engine designer, like you are. Should gain me a solid 80+rwhp.
When you let sponsors throw a car together for you, you end up with 11.0's at 120.. when you let an engine designer put a package together for you, you start seeing 130+mph in the proper car (Cartek, Flowtech Induction, etc)
Congrats on seeing through the fog and going with a specialist. It WILL pay off in the end.
06-24-2008, 10:47 PM
#63
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I thin the best builders are those who make the most power with the best streetability. Barry is known for that. He makes more power than any sponsor I've ever heard of with comparable sized engines. Oh, he also builds outlaw class 6 second, 2,000 hp turbo engines. His latest which is in his shop and getting finished right now is a GM iron LSX 430ci, huge single turbo that they are hoping makes 2,300 hp. Going a pure drag Grand National. Barry built his last 7 second engine, now they're going for 6's.
One of hundreds of examples: My friend Les, "Hoserack" sffba.net. He had an iron 422ci built by Barry in 2004, 230 sized cam, ported LS6 heads and intake, 11.0 cr. Cam was Barry's choice don't know the specs. It idles very close to stock. Les has been spraying a 300 shot for the past 4 years. STREET CAR only. Has about 60,000 miles now. Made 535 RWHP back in 2004, NOONE else came close to that N/A power back then with a mild cammed 422ci. Made 880 RWHP on spray. The engine was just recently checked out and ITS STILL PERFECT. He's selling it because he just bought a C6 Z06, one that will be laying down OVER 600 RWHP with a low 240 ish cam, after Barry gets his hands on the heads, intake and recommends a cam.
Lotsa good builders out there, YES, but very few build a perfectly matched engine. Most big power engines I've seen are radically cammed and high cr.
Whatever, call who you want for a build. To each his own. Oh yeah, what shops give 12mon/12,000 mile full warranties on N/A engines....only those builders who know they can
One of hundreds of examples: My friend Les, "Hoserack" sffba.net. He had an iron 422ci built by Barry in 2004, 230 sized cam, ported LS6 heads and intake, 11.0 cr. Cam was Barry's choice don't know the specs. It idles very close to stock. Les has been spraying a 300 shot for the past 4 years. STREET CAR only. Has about 60,000 miles now. Made 535 RWHP back in 2004, NOONE else came close to that N/A power back then with a mild cammed 422ci. Made 880 RWHP on spray. The engine was just recently checked out and ITS STILL PERFECT. He's selling it because he just bought a C6 Z06, one that will be laying down OVER 600 RWHP with a low 240 ish cam, after Barry gets his hands on the heads, intake and recommends a cam.
Lotsa good builders out there, YES, but very few build a perfectly matched engine. Most big power engines I've seen are radically cammed and high cr.
Whatever, call who you want for a build. To each his own. Oh yeah, what shops give 12mon/12,000 mile full warranties on N/A engines....only those builders who know they can
he also built me a 383 in 99 that I ABUSED for 50k miles and 470rwhp. cylinder walls were still cross hatched when i took it apart.
everyone has a my dick is bigger story
this thread is a little
06-25-2008, 12:57 AM
#64
FormerVendor
Scott,
Thanks very much for the nice words. I worked at SAM for quite a while and loved every minute of it. There is no "head machinist" though at SAM unless it's Judson Massingill the owner and operator of SAM along with his beautiful wife Linda so I could never take that title! He taught me and several hundred guys while I was there a hell of a lot and more about the building of true race engines and the care of true racing engines. Also there's the guy that helped me start my own shop and that's Pat Topolinski who I would call the top machinist in recent years at SAM but he now works with Greg Anderson and Jason Line building Pro Stock engines and running the NHRA circuit. I still call Pat and many of the SAM engine building family on a weekly basis.
I do like to think we know quite a bit about these LSx engines after building so many and for so many different uses and people all over the place but they are still engines like any other and any true race engine builder can work with them also. I do not know who this Barry guy is but if he's good I am sure he can do a great job as well. Like was said earlier engines are engines as far as heads and intakes and that goes etc. and they don't care what year or brand they are or who works on them. Results are results no matter who produces them!
Thanks very much for the nice words. I worked at SAM for quite a while and loved every minute of it. There is no "head machinist" though at SAM unless it's Judson Massingill the owner and operator of SAM along with his beautiful wife Linda so I could never take that title! He taught me and several hundred guys while I was there a hell of a lot and more about the building of true race engines and the care of true racing engines. Also there's the guy that helped me start my own shop and that's Pat Topolinski who I would call the top machinist in recent years at SAM but he now works with Greg Anderson and Jason Line building Pro Stock engines and running the NHRA circuit. I still call Pat and many of the SAM engine building family on a weekly basis.
I do like to think we know quite a bit about these LSx engines after building so many and for so many different uses and people all over the place but they are still engines like any other and any true race engine builder can work with them also. I do not know who this Barry guy is but if he's good I am sure he can do a great job as well. Like was said earlier engines are engines as far as heads and intakes and that goes etc. and they don't care what year or brand they are or who works on them. Results are results no matter who produces them!
needadive, is exactly what you need.
You say 20 people on here you know have an engine built by Barry, where is the threads why not the good words? Do a quick search for Erik Koenig at HKE or Brian at LME, and let the people speak for themselves, You may think Barry is the best, But he may be the only bloke around your neck of the woods, You cannot compare what you do not know. Get some sheets from Barrys builds and post them up. even better get people with his engines to post up if you know 20 of them on here alone!
Im with blanco on this one, not only judging from this site but Erik in my eyes is the best, Just like Brian would be the best for the next person, TSP for the next, and SDParts for the next, all very different builders but are sworn by because people have not tried anyone else.
Eriks results speak for him self, I can easily find them online and an array of posts from Erik on a large variety of forums. Oh did I mention he has 25 Years experience, Has built over 1000 LS engines and used to be the SAM Head machinist? But Don't listen to me LOOK IT UP FOR YOUR SELF.
Again this is my opinion which I keep to my self, and will hold it until the day im changed.
Scott
You say 20 people on here you know have an engine built by Barry, where is the threads why not the good words? Do a quick search for Erik Koenig at HKE or Brian at LME, and let the people speak for themselves, You may think Barry is the best, But he may be the only bloke around your neck of the woods, You cannot compare what you do not know. Get some sheets from Barrys builds and post them up. even better get people with his engines to post up if you know 20 of them on here alone!
Im with blanco on this one, not only judging from this site but Erik in my eyes is the best, Just like Brian would be the best for the next person, TSP for the next, and SDParts for the next, all very different builders but are sworn by because people have not tried anyone else.
Eriks results speak for him self, I can easily find them online and an array of posts from Erik on a large variety of forums. Oh did I mention he has 25 Years experience, Has built over 1000 LS engines and used to be the SAM Head machinist? But Don't listen to me LOOK IT UP FOR YOUR SELF.
Again this is my opinion which I keep to my self, and will hold it until the day im changed.
Scott
06-25-2008, 01:29 AM
#65
FormerVendor
I thin the best builders are those who make the most power with the best streetability. Barry is known for that. He makes more power than any sponsor I've ever heard of with comparable sized engines. Oh, he also builds outlaw class 6 second, 2,000 hp turbo engines. His latest which is in his shop and getting finished right now is a GM iron LSX 430ci, huge single turbo that they are hoping makes 2,300 hp. Going a pure drag Grand National. Barry built his last 7 second engine, now they're going for 6's.
One of hundreds of examples: My friend Les, "Hoserack" sffba.net. He had an iron 422ci built by Barry in 2004, 230 sized cam, ported LS6 heads and intake, 11.0 cr. Cam was Barry's choice don't know the specs. It idles very close to stock. Les has been spraying a 300 shot for the past 4 years. STREET CAR only. Has about 60,000 miles now. Made 535 RWHP back in 2004, NOONE else came close to that N/A power back then with a mild cammed 422ci. Made 880 RWHP on spray. The engine was just recently checked out and ITS STILL PERFECT. He's selling it because he just bought a C6 Z06, one that will be laying down OVER 600 RWHP with a low 240 ish cam, after Barry gets his hands on the heads, intake and recommends a cam.
Lotsa good builders out there, YES, but very few build a perfectly matched engine. Most big power engines I've seen are radically cammed and high cr.
Whatever, call who you want for a build. To each his own. Oh yeah, what shops give 12mon/12,000 mile full warranties on N/A engines....only those builders who know they can
One of hundreds of examples: My friend Les, "Hoserack" sffba.net. He had an iron 422ci built by Barry in 2004, 230 sized cam, ported LS6 heads and intake, 11.0 cr. Cam was Barry's choice don't know the specs. It idles very close to stock. Les has been spraying a 300 shot for the past 4 years. STREET CAR only. Has about 60,000 miles now. Made 535 RWHP back in 2004, NOONE else came close to that N/A power back then with a mild cammed 422ci. Made 880 RWHP on spray. The engine was just recently checked out and ITS STILL PERFECT. He's selling it because he just bought a C6 Z06, one that will be laying down OVER 600 RWHP with a low 240 ish cam, after Barry gets his hands on the heads, intake and recommends a cam.
Lotsa good builders out there, YES, but very few build a perfectly matched engine. Most big power engines I've seen are radically cammed and high cr.
Whatever, call who you want for a build. To each his own. Oh yeah, what shops give 12mon/12,000 mile full warranties on N/A engines....only those builders who know they can
Not to be rude at all but I have built engines for less that 10K total that run 7s in the 1/4 mile. Power adders make things way faster so it's not really that hard fwiw. That same engine has also made over 150 passes as well but it's more of a testament to the tuner and owner knowing how to setup the turbo system and tune it right.
I've built several engines that set or reset records or won races or series in drag racing and endurance racing but I do not use them in any ads or on my website or in my signature. I consider those things to be more of the people who run those car's acomplishments since there's so damn much work in making anything like that happen.
I would feel like an *** saying that I was the main reason anyone won anything as there's just so much more to any competitive racing effort than just the engine that's for sure. I am just glad to be a part of that stuff since you do learn more when you try to push the limits of anything.
I built the LS1 shortblock that Steve Reinhard on here used to win Hot Rod Magazine's Pump Gas Drags as well as the one in Ashley's 9 second hydraulic roller LS1 car in this months Fastest Street Car magazine that won Hot Rod Magazines Most Legit 9 second street car. I did the engine for James and Sheila Day's 9 second hysraulic roller pump gas Camaro as well.
Again though it was all Steve Reinhard and company winning that PGD showdown and PSI with Jeff and Ashley making her car run so fast at PGD again and James and Sheila Day spending the time to make their car run the numbers that were the real reason these cars performed so well so they were the reason in reality that these cars and engines worked as well as they did so no engine builder can ever take the credit when it takes so many to really make something work.
I am sure it's the case with your friend Barry as he's probably also hooked up with a good team of people who help him look good too. With power adders especially the tuners make a HUGE difference in keeping stuff together and looking good.
06-25-2008, 01:40 AM
#66
FormerVendor
Saying all that it is not that hard to make 600 RWHP NA with the stuff people are talking about in this thread. The better the heads and intake the smaller the intake cam can be and the nicer it can idle and drive. LS7 can probably run the smallest cam for drivelability than probably anything since you can run an even smaller cam with the much bigger LS7 port but the bigger TFS heads can also make the power and the big ETPs can too. With a larger cam I wouldn't even count the AFR225 out either.
It seems like you need around 350 cfm or more with good heads and a good intake like the FAST 90/92 or the LS7 and a larger engine and you start getting to that 600 RWHP range with the right cam and an M6 more often. I know we have done it and LME has done it and Vengeance has done it and LG and many others on here I know I am leaving out. I guess it's time for sleep now!
It seems like you need around 350 cfm or more with good heads and a good intake like the FAST 90/92 or the LS7 and a larger engine and you start getting to that 600 RWHP range with the right cam and an M6 more often. I know we have done it and LME has done it and Vengeance has done it and LG and many others on here I know I am leaving out. I guess it's time for sleep now!
07-04-2008, 12:12 PM
#70
Just an observation on my part, but I hear alot of people talk about making power with a certain engine combination. Everyone talks about heads, cam, intake, and exhaust. I think many times something that gets overlooked by people is cylinder/cylinder wall prep.
I used to drag race and hung around some pretty knowledgable people. Gene Fulton was one of them. Look him up! His engines always made more power and were faster in the 1/4 mile than most. Everyone wondered why?
He would say it's in the cylnder wall prep/ring seal. He was fanatical about it and would never tell anyone what he did differently.
I had trouble with a short block from a sponsor last year - had trash in it and the cylinders were scratched pretty bad. It did not make the power it should have on the dyno. Well to me it was obvious the cylinder wall seal was impared. That sponsor told me that it was fine, and they did not think it was a problem, but they re-honed it anyway. I sold it when I got it back. I had a bad taste in my mouth.
That line of thinking did not sit well with me. I know that proper cylinder prep and ring seal are criticle to making the most power. I guess I was around Gene too long.
http://www.fultoncompetition.com/
I used to drag race and hung around some pretty knowledgable people. Gene Fulton was one of them. Look him up! His engines always made more power and were faster in the 1/4 mile than most. Everyone wondered why?
He would say it's in the cylnder wall prep/ring seal. He was fanatical about it and would never tell anyone what he did differently.
I had trouble with a short block from a sponsor last year - had trash in it and the cylinders were scratched pretty bad. It did not make the power it should have on the dyno. Well to me it was obvious the cylinder wall seal was impared. That sponsor told me that it was fine, and they did not think it was a problem, but they re-honed it anyway. I sold it when I got it back. I had a bad taste in my mouth.
That line of thinking did not sit well with me. I know that proper cylinder prep and ring seal are criticle to making the most power. I guess I was around Gene too long.
http://www.fultoncompetition.com/
07-04-2008, 03:40 PM
#71
FormerVendor
Cylinder wall geometry and finish are very important. Any true race engine builder knows that but a lot of the stuff required to do it right really adds a lot of time to the process so most production style shops do not want to do it. You need the right main and head fasteners used and torqued appropriately and the right head gasket and the right bore torque plate and the right stones for the cylinder material and finish for the rings being used etc. It is worth it like you said when its through and you will always make a little to a lot more power depending on how well it was honed the first time.
07-07-2008, 09:06 AM
#73
TECH Fanatic
Interesting thread.
I set out to have just such a beast built but I wasnt looking for just top end with some unbearable street manors. I wanted a true daily driver with 600+ rwhp legit.
So the bigger the better for a N/A application in this case and it isnt going to be cheap either. First thing is cubes. Need big cubes. The bigger the bore and the better. Then you need heads to support the cubes and an intake to support the heads.
I looked at an LS7 block but didnt like some of the things about them. SO then I was looking at the LSX block but it was on hold, and again just a few things disuaded from one. So I went with a sleeved LS2. 4.135 bore by 4.250 stroke and on top All Pro LSW Heads. The intake is a LS7, nothing but a Kinsler for aftermarket for them that will fit under the hood so the LS7 will do. Currently under construction, going to be pushing through a 9" with 3.89 gears. Honestly I think we're looking 625+ out of this but We'll see, My car is notorious for eating power with its heavy drivetrain.
You could breach 600 with a 440 and some TFS heads on it. Obviously the bigger the better. Is this the only way to do it? No. My guess is a LSX 434 with good heads and even a 416 possibly with a solid roller setup maybe. power is all about the head and cam selection. Mamo put down 550 with a 383.
But thats why I went the route I went. I didnt just want to breach 600. I wanted 500hp as early as I could with 500+ torque. My car is 4000+ lbs, it needs torque to get it rolling.
I set out to have just such a beast built but I wasnt looking for just top end with some unbearable street manors. I wanted a true daily driver with 600+ rwhp legit.
So the bigger the better for a N/A application in this case and it isnt going to be cheap either. First thing is cubes. Need big cubes. The bigger the bore and the better. Then you need heads to support the cubes and an intake to support the heads.
I looked at an LS7 block but didnt like some of the things about them. SO then I was looking at the LSX block but it was on hold, and again just a few things disuaded from one. So I went with a sleeved LS2. 4.135 bore by 4.250 stroke and on top All Pro LSW Heads. The intake is a LS7, nothing but a Kinsler for aftermarket for them that will fit under the hood so the LS7 will do. Currently under construction, going to be pushing through a 9" with 3.89 gears. Honestly I think we're looking 625+ out of this but We'll see, My car is notorious for eating power with its heavy drivetrain.
You could breach 600 with a 440 and some TFS heads on it. Obviously the bigger the better. Is this the only way to do it? No. My guess is a LSX 434 with good heads and even a 416 possibly with a solid roller setup maybe. power is all about the head and cam selection. Mamo put down 550 with a 383.
But thats why I went the route I went. I didnt just want to breach 600. I wanted 500hp as early as I could with 500+ torque. My car is 4000+ lbs, it needs torque to get it rolling.
RED Sleeved LS2 block, GMPP LS7 heads and LS2 Portworks ported LS7 intake, Callies, Mahle etc. Going with a smaller cam as per Erik's comments. Idea was to pass emissions with max possible power (I think the same requirements as GM with the LS7 design) So probably something in the 22x/23x range with a fairly wide LSA, plenty of lift etc camwise.
Anyway I need to catch up with Ed to see where he is at with it. Should be ready any day. Hoping for around 650fwhp and similar requirements for BHP and Torque as you
