racer7088

All the NOS deals we do are 4.000 stroke and they work great and always have. As I said on several of the JE deals I have seen they have some crazy taper and this effect can happen more when you have that. Steve Reinhard who won the overall trophy and event at the pump gas drags also had a 4.000 crank in an OEM block and his pistons looked great after he ran some pretty big NOS. The tuning is what will make or break a NOS in the end although that's the top we are talking about! We have had again great luck with Wiseco and Diamond and do not have the oil burning issues.

Remember if you really collapse the skirts for other reasons you will certainly have probelems no matter what pistons you are running.

racer7088

Mac, It's weird you have had all these problems on the one engine like this you built and yet you haven't even run what you have right now but somehow you know it can't work. You say you built one that was all messed up but again that's what you did and not anyone else here. Why would Wiseco give you your money back on a set of pistons that there's nothing wrong with.

BTW no one in there right mind would run any Mahle shelf stuff on a NOS engine since half or more of there pistons are 4032 but again you should know that if you are an engine builder.

I guess you also know that going 4.035 is way big on an LS2 since it is a 4.000 bore block but it might work. The question is why was is that big already?

MAC4264

A GOOD engine builder would never recomend NOS, but maybe someday I will be a great engine builder as you racer7088. As for Wiseco at this point it is not about if the pistons are right or wrong but doing good customer service and satisifing a customer. I already stated that I would use them with a set of 6.300 rods and stock stroke crank (again nobody is reading) and build a 393. Also racer7088 I was taught that you don't have tell people how much money you have or how GOOD you are or even how cool you are. People are just these things.

P.S. What the hell is the purpose of blueprinting an engine if we take everyones word on something? Oh well back to work what do I KNOW.

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

SO your saying anyone who builds engines for power adds arent good builders?

You have n/a appplications and you have power add applications and you build accordingly for both.

Mac your point has been well taken but you dont seem to want to listen to what your being told and then you attack an instructor who's qualifications far over shadow yours in this field so much that your approaching ridiculous.


Quite simply a qualified builder, that is someone formally trained in the art of engine building should be doing this for people. Amateurs make amateur mistakes and the engine will suffer because of it. Don't lay blame on anyone but the design and builder of the engine for an improper build.

If my builder uses a part that doesn't work I'll blame him for not checking it first, not the part company for making it. Its the builder job to make sure all parts are going to work together correctly.

MAC4264

No, you guys still are not reading it says NOS. I never said anything about forced induction. READ READ READ. Call me amateur or call me what ever you will, on my 402 build maybe I made a rookie mistake that is why this whole thread started because I took more caution and I'm calling out a potential problem trying to make parts work together. Now racer7088 says it's ok wiseco says it's ok. When it fails it will be MY fault you even state in your last paragraph that you would blame ME if this engine was yours.
Also racer7088 maybe a well know name to some people and he may do very excellent work. My family has been racing my whole life and I know alot of hardcore racers and builders from the Houston area and have even talked to S.A.M. students and others assocaited with them and I have never heard of him, so sorry. I know for a fact that they bring students to the NHRA races to come check out certain areas of the pits out just for the advanced inovation.

racer7088

MAC or whatever your real name is, I was taught that people that talk **** without using their real names on internet bulletin boards are generally *** clowns that don't know WTF they are talking about and don't want to get really embarassed by themselves so they hide behind a screen name.

Again not saying that's you but if the shoe fits...........

Basically I would just start using your real name in these threads and let us know about all your important accomplishments along with your family's important accomplishments too if that will make you feel better.

I have no problem using my real name any and everywhere I go as it's right in my signature but then again I generally know what I am talking about as well.

Now it's a fact that I have used these Wiseco pistons for years without issue and I have built over 1000 LS1s in the last several years. They have been built for over 17 different vendors on these boards and about 12 other vendors not on these boards.

I have never had an LS1 engine with Wiseco pistons sent back for smoking or oil usage so far. I have never had an engine sent back for smoking or oil usage with Diamond pistons so far.

Also I was the one that went through all you have right here years and years and years ago and now we have a whole lot better pistons than ever from all these guys and Wiseco and Diamond were already very aware of the situation.

Don't you think if they were having all the issues that YOU had with your LS2 that Wiseco could even sell LSx pistons anymore whatsoever? You really think there is a big conspiracy to make everyone believe that a 4.000 crank can work and be run in the LS1 when in reality it can never work?

You shouldn't take people or companies that have over a 100 times the experience you do with these engines so damn personally but you should maybe think of something that you might have done wrong yourself on that first LS2 you did because then you'd truly pick up some really useful knowledge.

Also reguardless of what you think I don't think you are all wrong about being worried, as you are right that most people aren't even aware of this potential issue and that's why I reported what I did a long time ago even though it did **** some piston people off.

The problem now is that you are making a fool of yourself by trying to badmouth Wiseco as you have basically NO experience with this situation with all of your 1 engine builds with a 4.000 stroke in an LSx and now you consider yourself the authority on stroked LSx engines and their supposed "problems."

PS: Also I don't "recommend NOS" whatever that means?

racer7088

MAC, in all seriousness don't think I am slamming you as hard as it looks like above because I am not but let's just say a well known engine shop, that has personel there that have easily built hundreds of NHRA Comp Eliminator engines and plenty of NHRA national record holders as well, just built an engine I tore down (with a 4.000 crank) and it has Wiseco pistons in it and they had left out the oil support rails. Oops! True story.

PS. It's not Nickens Bros. since they are here in Houston and I don't want you thinking they did it or them getting mad at me but the people involved can tell you if they want to as you might know some of them.

MAC4264

The piston will only have as much support as was designed into it when they were made. If the cylinder length is not known when the pistons are made it's just potluck whether anything will be right. I do these fairly often but I know what skirts and what break points to use. Some of the sleeved deals have longer cylinders and some don't and some are too long to hone correctly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Judd
This topic comes at a good time for me. I'm thinking about a stroker motor and I'm slightly worried about a sleeved LS1 {4.100 bore} with a 4.100 stroke. Will the piston have plenty of support when it's at the bottom of it's stroke? I'm worried that the piston skirts will actually be coming out of the cylinders at the bottom causing problems with piston rocking??? No idea, any opinions?


This was the first time you ever posted anything about it (2006) hardly early days. You had this problem too: first post on it 7-23-2005 Why am I burning so much oil. You have also come along ways since thinking the MTI 422 resleeves had 6.00 rods. I'm also assuming that you attended SAM in 2003 long break between post. Becareful what you type cause all can see. I pretty sure you know who I'am and that is why you single me out or is it because I am a short stroke racer.


Sincerly,
Chris McGaha
Southwest Performance & Machine

P.S. Next time you talk to David Nickens tell him me and my dad said Hi, he is a good guy.

racer7088

Chris,

I have stuff about it back in 99 when I was going to do a 4.250 stroke in a sleeved block. We were doing Ford stuff with that stroke but of course we have longer cylinders. Still have had no problems like you have had, not even back then. It's not all on LS1tech since I was talking to several people that had this problem on the Ford boards and again I did not have the same problems but I post here now and then since we were doing the LS1 since it came out. Of course I was using custom pistons on those Fords too.

I do not know who you are though but that does not matter. I do not even know what you are talking about with MTI and 6.000 rods? I can see that you have virtually no experience with putting big strokes in limited space small blocks though from all this. The LS1 is a cakewalk compared to a SBC with a 4.000 stroke or more and I have done that without issue as well. The problem with lots of small inch drag guys is that they think stuff can not work just because they don't see it much themselves.

Remember the NHRA in these weight break classes mandates small stroke motors to keep the cars SLOWER not make them faster. You can't run the bigger engines reguardless of stroke in these classes unless you add tons of weight because otherwise you will be going too FAST and the wee lil hp/inch stuff won't be able to keep up. It was setup a long time ago so people with no heads could run with the guys with better brand heads by making their cars lighter. The reason the small inch / small stroke stuff is faster is because the car is lighter and no other reason.

Can you think of any NHRA class where you have to add weight TO a car with a smaller engine even though it makes more hp/inch? There isn't any because when you make less hp you just go slower if your car still weighs the same thus the NHRA allows you to strip weight off your car with the smaller engines. What I see your threads saying is this: "Make your stroke smaller so you can go faster and you won't have all these probelms I had with my ONE build before." Then you are also trashing Wiseco as well who has been doing this pretty right all along and promoting a group that has already had to change their part number several times to make everyone happy.

racer7088

Chris,

I agree 100 percent with the first statement as I probably wrote it earlier. You can search further if you are really bored and you will find probably a 100 posts about this on a lot of other forums even Speedtalk going back over 10 years in the past. I even had a run in with JE back in 88 about it on some pistons I was having made for a Windsor but of course I wasn't on LS1tech back then!

Remember I do the 4.100 stroke deal as well all the time and you don't see a bunch of threads about my 4.100 stuff smoking and burning a quart of oil every 80 miles do you? I also have my own piston there I get exclusively from Wiseco that I use in it and it's in Ashleys car this month in Fastest Street Car magazine if you get that there at your shop as well.

MAC4264

If you had a clue you would know what I'm talking about. Show me a N/A SBC or LS1 motor that is 440 inches that makes more than 950 hp. Because if you can, to run in a weight to cubic inch class which your limited intelligence seems not to understand. NHRA comp elimnator D/A is 7.5 pounds per cubic inch 440 x 7.5 is 3,300 pounds. My own personal motor is a 321 we weigh 2410, so for that 440 to beable to carry all that weight and run the same et as I have 7.78 173 it would have to make 1232 hp with NO power adders. You can keep blowing smoke up you know where to the people on the net but I'm not buying one bit of info you say because you are full to the top of you no what. It is prety obvious I have more experince in this field! Look under records in a National Dragster or on NHRA's web site under D/A.(7.81 at Houston, Texas) Explain why in your own dam thread a IHRA Pro stock can only run just a couple of tenths faster than the NHRA prostocks and they have more than 300 ci on the NHRA guys.

Last post on this thread. THE END!

Chris

racer7088

Like you just said you have to weigh 900 pounds more to run the bigger engine. Why? Because at 2410 the 440 would totally and completely destroy your engine. You're 321 is only fast because the weight it carries is so low.

IHRA PS is faster and quicker than the NHRA and is in a bigger less aerodynamic car that weighs more. You are making my point for me Chris. I knew you were a mini-mee engine chearleader from the glorified ranks of NHRA bracket racing!

PS: I am sure that wasn't your last post but just stay away from the bigger engine stuff and I am sure you will be alright.

MAC4264

For SAM to be advertising that they have trained people for Nascar and other forms of motorsports sure doesn't give the impression your doing a very good job with a narrow mental thinking you have. I'm not a bracket racer but I would rather call myself a bracket racer than a wannbe street engine builder such as yourself. You have prove you don't know how to read so you would not know how to build off a set of rules anyway. As I have said in other post it really is ok you don't know how to make real power you might be ok in the end that is up to you though. Real power is define as doing with no good platform to start with. This pretty much disqualifys the LS1 as Nascar and the mini-mees in NHRA help pave the way for the LS1 design.

racer7088

Chris,

I am totally aware of why you have such a small engine. With all the students I had that went through SAM and knowing many others working on the Comp stuff right now I understand it all very well. I probably know about ten times the people you do in real Comp Eliminator shops not that it matters. Remember that they are after HP per inch and not necesarily true HP. Since they can take weight off with a smaller engine and make more HP per inch with a smaller engine it's a no brainer.

HP per inch means using the best heads on the smallest engine that will work since you have a linear weight break down to a minimum weight limit. If you have more HP per inch and the same weight per inch you will have a better power to weight ratio and accelerate faster. Your air drag however does not change so you still are fighting air drag on the top end and you need hp for that requardles of your hp per inch.

The problem with indexed and weight break drag racers like you is that you start believing that HP per inch is more important than HP as it is to your brand of racing and the NHRA's insurance policies. This is the same exact thinking however employed by ricers saying how much better their 1 liter engine is that makes 3 hp per inch but only still makes 186 hp!

In the real world I don't have to add weight to my car when I step up from a 347 to a 408 or to a 468 etc. I just go faster! You can whine that I have a bigger engine than you but I will still kick your ***. HP per inch means nothing in the real world but HP per pound and total HP means everything.

PS: I knew that wouldn't be your last post! Also keep in mind that HP per inch also means RPM and in turn RPM means low reliability and huge money or anotherwords a retarded combinatin for a street engine.

racer7088

Chris, I can't totally understand some of your comments really but that's not that important in the big picture. The big picture is that SAM has had or does have graduates on nearly every NHRA Pro Stock Team out there, They have mulitiple grads at all the bigger drag racing Hp per inch shops as well as the big bracket shops and power adder places. ANYONE in the racing industry knows and respects SAM as a great place to get quality employees and people that truly love racing engines and all that goes on around them.

Part of the reason SAM is as good a place as it is is because it does away with the mumbo jumbo BS old wive's tales and such that utterly and completely dominate the shops that build most of the stuff in the NHRA/IHRA and elsewhere. You will see that a tiny minority of engine builders and/or cylinder head shops totally dominate large parts of these racing arenas. These people will often agree with the status quo to your face and when BS'ing with the slower majority but they will never tell you anything that will help you.

SAM as a school will tell you and Judson Massingill will tell you just about everything he knows and has aquired through the hundreds of grads and friends he has made through racing and the school over the last couple of decades and you just simply can't get that any where else right now. I simply call it how I see it and the truth is that most people in this industry have no clue and just copy the guys that do know what they are doing. This is the gist of this argument besides you bitching about Wiseco when no one but you had had these special problems.

The truth is that I love Comp Eliminator and that type of racing and 10+K rpm but it has absolutely NO bearing on building a great street engine and in fact is almost competely the opposite of everything you'd want to do to build a good high hp reliable street engine on pump gas.

MAC4264

Your right when it comes to street engines there is no limit and obtaining the most horsepower possible through any means with no drawbacks. You should stand back and say hay this guy is a mini-mee engine builder but when he builds a street engine he will bulid the bigger stuff, obviuosly I'm not total tied up in HP/inch or I would not be building a 434. Most of what your saying is true and I agree on a street level. At some point people who are serious enough about it will make that transition to real racing and have to look for power other than cubic inches. I quit street racing years ago because it was a never ending drama of back and forth between more displacement more NOS more supercharger and pretty soon you had a racecar you could only race at test and tune night, gets boring. Plus most people do take it personal when someone else has 50 cubes less and there car is anywhere close as fast as theres.

Back to the real discussion you never really have stated any facts about the above measurents agreed or disagreed. You tell me you have done so many of these so you must have mic every set you did right? At this point have you seen these type measurements. I guess I'm looking more for a professional, tech type answer rather than, "We have built these with no problems." Enlighlen, intelligent minds want to know. You have stated you have seen this problem before so look at your build sheets if you will or if it is in your mind show me some hardcore proof there is not a problem there with THAT set of pistons. If you don't want the world to see you can PM people you know. I will then shut up and go away.

racer7088

Chris,

I can't measure your pistons since I don't even know what number they are. (i hope you didn't write it earlier!) I don't think you're an idiot or that your concerns are stupid either. I just think the piston you have would work fine is all.

If I can I will measure it too as I might even have some at my shop in stock possibly, as I do agree with you that this CAN be a problem for sure, and I've had to fix many a big stroke LSx deal already with weird pistons.

I will say the ones I was talking about that were so bad for me had even much more rock at the bottom than what you measured but I will totally give you the benefit of the doubt if I can determine what you are working with.

MAC4264

Like I said you guys need to read this instead of just posting. Besides look at the info I have gave. Forget who built these at this moment and look at the information. Forget I have call bullshit on that manufacture and look at brand A piston and give me a professional-technical answer. Your last post proves to me you never really have looked at my point of view on this you just wanted to protect Wiseco. I can understand if you have great respect for Wiseco, I did as of a week ago so go back and read and LOOK. I'm a cheerleader for short stroke and you are for Wiseco. Ha ha don't take that personal though.

racer7088

Chris, I can live with that and you're right I didn't remember you already posted the part number And I don't take anything personally either so no problems there. Also I like short strokes to for hp per inch stuff as well since that is simply how it all works and I don't disagree at all on that. Also I think believe it or not that I bought that piston too but it is not here yet although I am using it in a longer than stock sleeve deal. I think I got the 4.125 bore one though.

racer7088

Chris, also what block are you running and is it OEM sleeve length or a Darton etc. with a longer sleeve. I ask since 5.625 is longer than any normal sleeve. If you use a tape measure you will catch a part of the cylinder on regular LSx engines that is not truly part of the cylinder that guides the pistons as they are undercut for honing overtravel to right around 5.500 or so.