transamman400

iTrader: (1)

About a year and 3 months ago I purchased what I thought was a 408ci iron block from Texas Speed. Previously I had checked with about 4-5 different companies and was surprised to find that Texas Speed was at least $800 cheaper than the competition. I was tickled and had them send me an estimate, which had a listing of all the parts included. Everything sounded good.

I received the motor in June, and had the car running by November. Didn't drive it much because winter struck. Took it out when spring came and in May I took the car to Hitech Motorsport to get a tune up and dyno. The car's last run (probably heatsoaked) had the peak at 499.5 at the rears. Overall I was satisfied with the engine's performance.

About a couple weeks later I had to do a serious rebuild which I do not fault Texas Speed for. HOWEVER, after Hitech Motorsport began tearing down the engine we found many serious discrepancies between what was promised in the build and what was in the motor. I sent Hitech the estimate from Texas Speed with the specifications and found many things were not included or misrepresented. Here are some of the things found that I wrote down over the phone.

-Was not 408, block was .10 honed and not bored as promised. Engine was in fact a 403.
-Not decked
-No ARP cam retainer bolt kit
-No ARP main stud kit
-No ARP cam bolt kit
-Parts that were used were stock

These are just some of the things I remembered to write down and not everything I was told that did not match up with the estimate I received.

Tolerances were also found to be very poor to the point where the longevity of the motor was put into question without changing the pistons to a different size, very large gaps were noted.

I will admit that the engine made power within the range I was expecting but the quality of the build seemed to be quite poor and not delivered to promised specifications. This is dissapointing and may very seriously effect where I conduct my business. I would have almost positively bought from another builder if I had known about this kind of corner-cutting.

I have a copy of the estimate sent for Texas Speed and currently have Hitech rebuilding the motor, and can back me up on these issues and more than likely would be happy to speak for me about the engine delivered...

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

I will break all of this down. Any of our 408 cid iron-block engines will be built using a 4.010" bore piston unless otherwise requested by the customer. We will build it as a 4.030" bore if so desired for no additional cost. Our Diamond Racing exclusive 805TS piston set is listed on your invoice, which specifically shows a 4.010" BORE SIZE. You can see a copy of your invoice at the link below. We deleted your last name and all of the pricing to protect your privacy:

http://precisionracecomponents.com/justinj.pdf

We do this to allow for a clean-up down the road should the customer need one, as well as to provide maximum cylinder wall thickness. The vast majority of our customers are using nitrous or boosted applications, and a thicker cylinder wall is a benefit. EVERY ENGINE has the deck checked for consistency and any possible imperfections. Even though they are new blocks, the factory specs will sometimes be wider than we would like so they all get checked. Did you have an issue with the deck of the block? Decking a block if it does not need it will be pointless, and I'm sure you would have bashed us for having the pistons too far out of the hole. You did not receive an ARP main stud kit because YOU DID NOT PAY FOR ONE! I am looking at your final invoice, and there is not an ARP main stud kit on it. Do you have pictures of the bolts that were used on the cam plate and cam? We used to use ARP on all of our engines when installing cams, but GM changed the cam retainer plate design to a beveled design. So, you have to use GM bolts that are beveled to match the new design retainer plate. If your invoice was not changed to reflect the GM bolts I apologize for this.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Every engine that is built has a build sheet. I still have yours, so I will post the tolerances tomorrow morning when I get the build sheet from the machine shop. Where exactly were these gaps you're referring to? Are you talking about between the crown of the pistons and the cylinder wall? If that's the case, I'll have to go into how to build and engine. And please do not mistake this for your piston-to-wall clearance. I have had customers get mad because they claim their piston-to-wall clearance is too big. Piston-to-wall clearance is measured 90 degress from the center of the wrist pin on the skirt, NOT on the crown (i.e. top) of the piston. I don't doubt that the shop was going to bad-mouth another shop's engine. Do you expect them to tell you it's a great engine and you should let them rebuild it?

The engine made the power that you were expecting, and you're mad. You got exactly what you were promised and paid for. Please show me where we went wrong on this engine build.

I will post your engine specs from the blueprint sheet tomorrow morning.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

transamman400

iTrader: (1)

-I was asked what my application was and I specifically stated this was going to be strictly a N/A motor with no intention of spraying or boosting.

-It does list a 4.010 but I was never informed of the optional piston for no cost and I believe this would be the better choice

-This is not a 408ci motor

-This does not match the copy I was sent. BUT YOU WILL NOTICE EVEN YOUR INVOICE INCLUDES SOME OF THE ARP COMPONENTS

Curiously I noticed your copy where it mentions...

"Full Block Work and Preparation: Vat Block, Line Bore, Install New Cam Bearings, Bore/Hone with..."

Interestingly, my copy continues after the (...) with "-with Torque Plate, Balance Rotating Assy,.Line Hone"

-No Balance Sheet included

I am having Hitech take pictures and I will be happy to post my copy of the estimate if you would like to see it. The only reason I do not have it posted right now is that I do not know how to attach it and edit out my personal info. I forwarded the email I received from TSP with the attachment of the estimate to Hitech so they can verify my copy of the estimate.

-By paying for parts I did not receive

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

The iron-block strokers are still called "408's" because it's their nameplate. GM produced 402 cid big-blocks in 1970 but still called them a 396 because that is what people knew them as. This is no different. There is no power difference between a 404 and 408. If there was we would not do it. I don't say this because I think I'm right; I say this because we've engine dynoed both setups.

As for the text that is cutoff, we updated our software last September, and the invoices from the old software had some text cut off when it carried over. I do not have any control over this, but it does not change any of the parts that are listed. It did not delete any parts. I'm not sure why you keep talking about an estimate. We e-mail estimates to customers when they are interested in purchasing an item(s), and an estimate is a starting point. Changes are continually made to estimates as customers request revisions, add parts, etc. It is made into an invoice when the customer places the order, and we build, ship, and charge the order based on the invoice. I have listed the invoice, and this is what you received with your engine. I also checked the charges from last June, and you were charged for the invoice that I posted. So again, YOU DID NOT PAY FOR AN ARP MAIN STUD KIT! You paid for an ARP head bolt kit, ARP cam bolt kit, and ARP cam retainer plate bolt kit. You received the ARP head bolt kit, and you are stating that factory bolts were used instead of the latter two ARP bolt kits. I addressed this in my previous post. You paid $6.99 and $6.29, respectively, for these items. If they were not included in your engine I will be happy to send them to you. You paid for the ARP cam bolt and retainer plate bolt kits, and if GM bolts were used it's because we could not use the old design ARP bolt with GM's new design plate. You obviously received some bolts, otherwise we would not have been able to assemble your long-block.

You received an estimate and an invoice showing the 4.010" bore piston, and you did not have any problems with it each time you reviewed the estimates and invoices. We send the invoices to customers for final approval, and that would have been the time for you to mention that you did not want the 4.010" bore piston. Nothing was hidden from you at all, so I am not sure how we are to blame. You knew exactly what you were getting. The last iron-block stroker we dynoed with our stage 3 LS6 cylinder heads produced 612 FWHP, and this was using the 4.010" bore piston.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a good example of a newbie dealing with engine related stuff.

I'm LOL about complaining about a 403 vs 408. Wow. Even funnier is that the engine made the expected performance level, and ran without issues.

Someone give this guy 5".

BTW, don't tell anyone about this, but the SBC 350 ci engine is actually a 349.

Damian

iTrader: (89)

And 1000cc Motorcycles are really 998cc's

HTMtrSprt

Trevor, please note that neither I nor any of my employees EVER "bad-mouthed" Texas Speed to this customer. We simply disassembled the engine, inspected it, measured it and reported our findings to the customer. I believe the failure was partially a result of some mis-steps by the installer. We did note that the engine had stock main cap hardware and not ARP, however the cam and retainer plate bolts were ARP.

If you have any questions about what we found, please feel free to phone/email me.

Brian
HiTech Motorsport
brian@hitechmotorsport.com
763-712-9088

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

Brian,

I really appreciate you letting me know what is going on. As per Justin's invoice, he was supposed to have factory main cap bolts. The only ARP parts in the engine were the head bolts, cam retainer plate bolts, and cam bolts. I apologize if I came off a little harsh in my original post. I have had an instance before of another shop talking down one of our products in a shameless act to make a sale. It was also being portrayed by the customer like we ripped him off, and I take that very personally. I certainly do not have any ill feelings toward you or your shop, and I hope you will accept my apology.

Thanks again!

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

So Trevor, are you going to give him his missing 5 inches or what?

Reckless

iTrader: (9)

HTMtrSprt

No problem Trevor.... I've been there as well.

Brian

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to have to pass.