electric water pump?
You can't change his mind, don't waste your time. He knows everything.
After all ... he owns TWO Lt1s ...
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 249
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From: Henderson NV
Over 10k on my Meziere HD pump with no issues what so ever. Many track runs as well as many of miles put on it through high desert heat here in Vegas.
It's just like any pump, if it goes it goes. You just cough up the cash and have it replaced. IMO you can't go wrong with one. The stock unit is cam-driven where the Meziere is not...that's freeing up HP and thats where most of the increased HP comes from.
It's just like any pump, if it goes it goes. You just cough up the cash and have it replaced. IMO you can't go wrong with one. The stock unit is cam-driven where the Meziere is not...that's freeing up HP and thats where most of the increased HP comes from.
Instead of attacking me and pretending I am the bad guy please debate the science.
Yes the stocker is directly driven by the engine but so is the alternator that drives the electrical system that drives the electric pumps, so again how is it that the extra power gets to the wheels?
Yes the stocker is directly driven by the engine but so is the alternator that drives the electrical system that drives the electric pumps, so again how is it that the extra power gets to the wheels?
Instead of attacking me and pretending I am the bad guy please debate the science.
Yes the stocker is directly driven by the engine but so is the alternator that drives the electrical system that drives the electric pumps, so again how is it that the extra power gets to the wheels?
Yes the stocker is directly driven by the engine but so is the alternator that drives the electrical system that drives the electric pumps, so again how is it that the extra power gets to the wheels?
You can't really compare the parasitic loss of turning an alternator with near zero resistance to driving a pump at high rpms struggling to push gallons of water through small passages. There is no "extra" power, more of the engines output is just going to the wheels instead of to the pump.
It doesn't matter how strong the alternator is or how much power it is supplying, it still wont take as much hp to spin as a waterpump...
Yes and since it takes far less power to turn the alternator how could it possibly put out enough power to do a lot of work(moving water).
My point is the mechanical pump takes a lot of power to turn because it moves a lot of water, the electric takes a lot less power to turn because it moves a lot less water.
My point is the mechanical pump takes a lot of power to turn because it moves a lot of water, the electric takes a lot less power to turn because it moves a lot less water.
I would say the flaw is implying that some of us are stupid or uneducated compared to the "Brighter Folks".
As far as where the power comes from. The the cam does not drive the Elec pump reducing alot of rotational mass off the cam allowing less drag and a faster spinning motor. A Stock Pump might flow better in the higher Rpms but the faster your going the more air cooling the rad and the motor and who the stays above 4800 RPMs daily driving????
As far as the pump failing, I do beleive there alot more stock pump failures and leaks than the EWP from everything Ive read.
As far as where the power comes from. The the cam does not drive the Elec pump reducing alot of rotational mass off the cam allowing less drag and a faster spinning motor. A Stock Pump might flow better in the higher Rpms but the faster your going the more air cooling the rad and the motor and who the stays above 4800 RPMs daily driving????
As far as the pump failing, I do beleive there alot more stock pump failures and leaks than the EWP from everything Ive read.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 503
Likes: 54
From: TX
Maybe the stock pump is a bit overkill.
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These thread always turn into sling fests once you show up and **** on everyone's ideas about EWP's Caprice
My 2 cents is, if you want a bit extra power at the track, and will buy a wired warning kit for an EWP then you can't go wrong. I will also say that once you have the housing bored out and an EWP fails it's literally a 10 min. replacement instead of an hour and a half (not including draining and replacing coolant)
My 2 cents is, if you want a bit extra power at the track, and will buy a wired warning kit for an EWP then you can't go wrong. I will also say that once you have the housing bored out and an EWP fails it's literally a 10 min. replacement instead of an hour and a half (not including draining and replacing coolant)
Thread Starter
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 443
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From: tampa
The electrics move far LESS water at mid to higher rpms than the mechanical, so no real chance of overcooling with one.
They do make the car roughly .1 faster at the track which is accomplished by freeing up power due to moving LESS water.
Yes they draw 8 amps and the alternator puts out I think 135apms(b-body got 105 or 135/140 depending who you ask) whether this is a problem depends on your battery and the rest of the other accessories.
I would recommend gears before the WP, especially with the M6.
I think electric waterpumps are done way way too often, leave them to the guys trying to get that extra .1 at the track. They are less reliable because instead of leaking a little as a failure they suddenly completely stop, heck even a little wiring issue cold caost you the engine fast. I am not sayng they are a bad mod, just saying IMO your application does not sound like it is a good fit.
They do make the car roughly .1 faster at the track which is accomplished by freeing up power due to moving LESS water.
Yes they draw 8 amps and the alternator puts out I think 135apms(b-body got 105 or 135/140 depending who you ask) whether this is a problem depends on your battery and the rest of the other accessories.
I would recommend gears before the WP, especially with the M6.
I think electric waterpumps are done way way too often, leave them to the guys trying to get that extra .1 at the track. They are less reliable because instead of leaking a little as a failure they suddenly completely stop, heck even a little wiring issue cold caost you the engine fast. I am not sayng they are a bad mod, just saying IMO your application does not sound like it is a good fit.
the electrical system is in good shape. optima redtop and new 140 amp alt (as stated put in last week). so that shouldnt be an issue as others have stated.
but i realize that they dont flow as well at high rpm's due to them not being mechanically driven at an increasing rate with RPM.
as far as only gaining a tenth, there are better ways to reallocate funds. the potential of running hot at WOT i dont want that. i do drive the formula pretty hard.
Thread Starter
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 443
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From: tampa
You don't know what you are talking about. If you had an elementary school understanding of physics you would understand that you can not do more work with less power input by changing energy forms TWICE. The mechanical uses rotation to move water, the electric uses the alternator to turn rotation into electricity and then the electric motor of the pump to turn electricity back into rotation. That is inherently inefficient.
Since the mechanical is purely engine rpm dependant it has to be designed to flow enough at the stock very low idle speeds, as such at high rpms it moves a LOT of water. At 4800engine rpms it moves 66gpm as restricted by the cooling system(according to SAE data) compared to 55gpm FREEFLOW for the Meziere. Being a simple impeller, not a positive displacement pump, restriction substantially hampers it.
I have had this argument way too many times and it still pisses me off how many people believe that crap without any attempt to look at the science of it. This is why there are so many BAD products out there.
You want to argue it come up with some science to backup your beliefs.
Since the mechanical is purely engine rpm dependant it has to be designed to flow enough at the stock very low idle speeds, as such at high rpms it moves a LOT of water. At 4800engine rpms it moves 66gpm as restricted by the cooling system(according to SAE data) compared to 55gpm FREEFLOW for the Meziere. Being a simple impeller, not a positive displacement pump, restriction substantially hampers it.
I have had this argument way too many times and it still pisses me off how many people believe that crap without any attempt to look at the science of it. This is why there are so many BAD products out there.
You want to argue it come up with some science to backup your beliefs.
at the moment before i go into auto tech than back to the university. Thread Starter
TECH Regular
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 443
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From: tampa
for now i will probably invest in something else. i have mostly full boltons (except headers). i also have full rear suspension.
time to work on front suspension i think (still running stock front shocks).
i will probably pick up headers soon as well.
i will pick up some other things before doing an electric water pump that will net better gains.
no gears for now. i am not dropping a dime into the POS 10 bolt (although it is still functioning fine). i am going to be picking up a 9".
i think will go with an electric water pump when i do my cam swap and replace the opti in a few months as opposed to now.
time to work on front suspension i think (still running stock front shocks).
i will probably pick up headers soon as well.
i will pick up some other things before doing an electric water pump that will net better gains.
no gears for now. i am not dropping a dime into the POS 10 bolt (although it is still functioning fine). i am going to be picking up a 9".
i think will go with an electric water pump when i do my cam swap and replace the opti in a few months as opposed to now.
Changing loads do affect how much power it takes to turn the alternator, still the alternator is not capable of pulling much power.
Folks have argued that the alternator put out full amperage all the time but anyone who has hooked up jumper cables and heard the running car's idle change should know better. Idle changes due to increased load.
My problem is that folks rely on marketing rather than information and an understanding of things. That is why things like the granatelli MAF and Edelbrock heads/intake sell and notice the folks who have that stuff swear it is good too..
for now i will probably invest in something else. i have mostly full boltons (except headers). i also have full rear suspension.
time to work on front suspension i think (still running stock front shocks).
i will probably pick up headers soon as well.
i will pick up some other things before doing an electric water pump that will net better gains.
no gears for now. i am not dropping a dime into the POS 10 bolt (although it is still functioning fine). i am going to be picking up a 9".
i think will go with an electric water pump when i do my cam swap and replace the opti in a few months as opposed to now.
time to work on front suspension i think (still running stock front shocks).
i will probably pick up headers soon as well.
i will pick up some other things before doing an electric water pump that will net better gains.
no gears for now. i am not dropping a dime into the POS 10 bolt (although it is still functioning fine). i am going to be picking up a 9".
i think will go with an electric water pump when i do my cam swap and replace the opti in a few months as opposed to now.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 255
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Great argument. I believe it relates to the law of diminishing returns. You can't get more out of a system then you put into it. The alternator creates resistance in the alternator just like the mechanical does on the motor. Either way one is getting spun. The electric is just constantly pushing 55gph where the electric is constantly changing between 30 and 66gph. You get better mileage on the highway in cruise than stop and go traffic..if you know what I mean.
Changing loads do affect how much power it takes to turn the alternator, still the alternator is not capable of pulling much power.
Folks have argued that the alternator put out full amperage all the time but anyone who has hooked up jumper cables and heard the running car's idle change should know better. Idle changes due to increased load.
My problem is that folks rely on marketing rather than information and an understanding of things. That is why things like the granatelli MAF and Edelbrock heads/intake sell and notice the folks who have that stuff swear it is good too..
Folks have argued that the alternator put out full amperage all the time but anyone who has hooked up jumper cables and heard the running car's idle change should know better. Idle changes due to increased load.
My problem is that folks rely on marketing rather than information and an understanding of things. That is why things like the granatelli MAF and Edelbrock heads/intake sell and notice the folks who have that stuff swear it is good too..
With that said I would also invest in other areas first, Headers etc. But it is def a worth while mod and if installed correct should not be as problematic as a stocker. Like others said its what 6 bolts and a wire if you do have to change it out.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,985
Likes: 112
The fact that is, in my case, the mechanicals were all failing due to leaking. They still "worked" in terms of cooling the car but killed Opti's.
My reason for going with the Meizere was to put a WP in that would not leak on the Opti. Any performance or cooling gains were just a bonus.
I have had one on for years and have had zero problems with it.
Edit: I forgot to add that if the above is true and the work needed is proportional, that at any point where the electric flows more than the mechanical that the mechanical should have a horsepower advatage because it is moving less water, and according to you moving less water is the reason it makes more horsepower so it should be true that when the mechanical moves less water than the electric it should make more power.
Last edited by ulakovic22; Dec 1, 2008 at 01:47 PM.