Trick Flow 21 Degree LT1's - Info & Pics
12-10-2008, 08:50 AM
#25
We appreciate the kind words and look forward to interacting with you guys as time permits.
We have a couple different packages based on this casting in mind. The primary target for the new head will be 350/355's and high compression 383's. If you have 383cid+ then we already have the 215cc CNC'd TFS head that can get you to 12:1 and 500-560rwhp NA in more focused setups.
Keep in mind, steady state 28" flow numbers are primarily used for marketing. There are just too many ways to see positive gains on the vacuum that actually represent negative changes on the running engine. Moreover, flow numbers from different benches with different fixtures and varying types of transducers aren't going to be comparable. In the end we're looking for actual performance goals, i.e. a gain of Xhp backed up by an ET/mph improvement in "real life."
Relative to what has currently been achieved with the factory casting, I think the head will be a great value as-cast. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the as-cast version will likely be ~10hp down from our "budget" 190cc CNC'd stock casting & ~20hp down from the 200cc CNC'd stocker. However, the smaller CNC'd version of the 21deg TFS head will likely be 10-20hp up on the 200cc CNC'd stock casting if we're talking about stock shortblocks.
Thanks for the responses thus far. We will share some data as things progress. We are hopeful that we will receive castings in Feb/March and be able to get some good data on a 355 test shortblock shortly thereafter. In the meantime, we appreciate the suggestions and interest. Sounds like alot of the "big" goals are already wrapped up by the original 23deg head, however.
We have a couple different packages based on this casting in mind. The primary target for the new head will be 350/355's and high compression 383's. If you have 383cid+ then we already have the 215cc CNC'd TFS head that can get you to 12:1 and 500-560rwhp NA in more focused setups.
Keep in mind, steady state 28" flow numbers are primarily used for marketing. There are just too many ways to see positive gains on the vacuum that actually represent negative changes on the running engine. Moreover, flow numbers from different benches with different fixtures and varying types of transducers aren't going to be comparable. In the end we're looking for actual performance goals, i.e. a gain of Xhp backed up by an ET/mph improvement in "real life."
Relative to what has currently been achieved with the factory casting, I think the head will be a great value as-cast. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the as-cast version will likely be ~10hp down from our "budget" 190cc CNC'd stock casting & ~20hp down from the 200cc CNC'd stocker. However, the smaller CNC'd version of the 21deg TFS head will likely be 10-20hp up on the 200cc CNC'd stock casting if we're talking about stock shortblocks.
Thanks for the responses thus far. We will share some data as things progress. We are hopeful that we will receive castings in Feb/March and be able to get some good data on a 355 test shortblock shortly thereafter. In the meantime, we appreciate the suggestions and interest. Sounds like alot of the "big" goals are already wrapped up by the original 23deg head, however.
12-21-2008, 04:59 PM
#33
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I've talked to Phil awhile back...great guy to talk to and extremely knowledgeable! I will also camp out in their parking lot if push comes to shove.
BTW, I also live about 25 minutes away.
BTW, I also live about 25 minutes away.
12-22-2008, 11:14 AM
#34
Did a little work.. Over the past week we've had a chance to measure & grind on the 21deg head a bit after hours. It is a relief that Trick Flow continues to be accurate regarding stated information. Ports CC'd within 1cc of their claimed 185cc number. With the valves & chamber that will come from TFS an impala gasket should net 10.9-11:1 on a stock shortblock.
After some minor work we decided to try leaving the TFS chamber untouched. The port form as-cast is nice enough that we were able to get it into a preferable shape pretty easily.
So as to not bench race incomparable data, we'll forego absolute flow numbers for now. On our bench with our fixturing, transducers, methodology, etc. the flow numbers are close to what TFS claimed here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/10495801-post26.html
Keep in mind gains or losses in cfm are only one small side effect of what a steady state 28" h2o test is indicating. Flow numbers are not a measure of performance. The port is now around what our GM cnc'd castings are regarding size & we have not decided just where to finish it. Still, in terms of cfm it has responded positively to a proper shape and crossection adjustment. There is still much to be done regarding component & valvetrain mockup and the proper finishing of master ports. When TFS releases pricing to us, we will in turn release pricing for our offerings based on this new casting. Thanks guys!
After some minor work we decided to try leaving the TFS chamber untouched. The port form as-cast is nice enough that we were able to get it into a preferable shape pretty easily.
So as to not bench race incomparable data, we'll forego absolute flow numbers for now. On our bench with our fixturing, transducers, methodology, etc. the flow numbers are close to what TFS claimed here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/10495801-post26.html
Keep in mind gains or losses in cfm are only one small side effect of what a steady state 28" h2o test is indicating. Flow numbers are not a measure of performance. The port is now around what our GM cnc'd castings are regarding size & we have not decided just where to finish it. Still, in terms of cfm it has responded positively to a proper shape and crossection adjustment. There is still much to be done regarding component & valvetrain mockup and the proper finishing of master ports. When TFS releases pricing to us, we will in turn release pricing for our offerings based on this new casting. Thanks guys!
12-22-2008, 11:34 AM
#35
Over the past week we've had a chance to measure & grind on the 21deg head a bit after hours. It is a relief that Trick Flow continues to be accurate regarding stated information. Ports CC'd within 1cc of their claimed 185cc number. With the valves & chamber that will come from TFS an impala gasket should net 10.9-11:1 on a stock shortblock.
After some minor work we decided to try leaving the TFS chamber untouched. The port form as-cast is nice enough that we were able to get it into a preferable shape pretty easily.
So as to not bench race incomparable data, we'll forego absolute flow numbers for now. On our bench with our fixturing, transducers, methodology, etc. the flow numbers are close to what TFS claimed here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/10495801-post26.html
Keep in mind gains or losses in cfm are only one small side effect of what a steady state 28" h2o test is indicating. Flow numbers are not a measure of performance. The port is now around what our GM cnc'd castings are regarding size & we have not decided just where to finish it. Still, in terms of cfm it has responded positively to a proper shape and crossection adjustment. There is still much to be done regarding component & valvetrain mockup and the proper finishing of master ports. When TFS releases pricing to us, we will in turn release pricing for our offerings based on this new casting. Thanks guys!
After some minor work we decided to try leaving the TFS chamber untouched. The port form as-cast is nice enough that we were able to get it into a preferable shape pretty easily.
So as to not bench race incomparable data, we'll forego absolute flow numbers for now. On our bench with our fixturing, transducers, methodology, etc. the flow numbers are close to what TFS claimed here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/10495801-post26.html
Keep in mind gains or losses in cfm are only one small side effect of what a steady state 28" h2o test is indicating. Flow numbers are not a measure of performance. The port is now around what our GM cnc'd castings are regarding size & we have not decided just where to finish it. Still, in terms of cfm it has responded positively to a proper shape and crossection adjustment. There is still much to be done regarding component & valvetrain mockup and the proper finishing of master ports. When TFS releases pricing to us, we will in turn release pricing for our offerings based on this new casting. Thanks guys!
My new stroker is basically just on an engine stand waiting on heads, and results from these and the Darts are keeping me from pulling the trigger on anything else. Can't wait to see some "all out" port job numbers and dyno results.
12-22-2008, 03:39 PM
#36
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Nice.... I'd really be interested in seeing if these can kill a set of 23 degree AFR 227's..... My heads flowed in the 320 cfm area after being worked by hand.... if these would kill it i'd pull the trigger... But damn i really wish that the AFR 215 RR heads were still being produced. Any idea on whether a raised runner version of these heads will be produced for the serious LT1 race motors???? With flow in the 340-350 cfm area at .700+????/
I'd buy those in a heartbeat....
I'd buy those in a heartbeat....
12-22-2008, 08:57 PM
#39
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outlaw made a good point, what gains over 227's would a set of these have? look forward to results. my intake is coming out to install a new distributor gear. hell it wouldn't be that hard to swap heads at that point, lol! time to swap valve springs as well, lol!!!
does the standard 23 deg. stuff bolt right on? i would guess so but i didn't want to assume anything.
does the standard 23 deg. stuff bolt right on? i would guess so but i didn't want to assume anything.
Last edited by taner; 12-22-2008 at 09:05 PM.
