Trick Flow 21 Degree LT1's - Info & Pics
01-01-2009, 11:39 PM
#61
Apologies for reviving a dead thread, and sorry if its been said but I searched and could not find it...what is the max lift of the 1.3" double springs being used on these heads?
I noticed AI's tests go all the way to .7" but I am assuming that is just for the sake of testing and not using a spring, but I cannot find an actual answer on the out-of-the box max lift of those "LS-Style" springs. I am interested in running a set as-cast before I send them off to port, but my build needs more then the common .6" lift that most springs offer.
Would be nice to not have to get a new set of springs/locks/retaingers right off the bat for the more aggressive combos...
I noticed AI's tests go all the way to .7" but I am assuming that is just for the sake of testing and not using a spring, but I cannot find an actual answer on the out-of-the box max lift of those "LS-Style" springs. I am interested in running a set as-cast before I send them off to port, but my build needs more then the common .6" lift that most springs offer.
Would be nice to not have to get a new set of springs/locks/retaingers right off the bat for the more aggressive combos...
01-02-2009, 01:00 AM
#63
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Outlaw/Taner - We have yet to determine what to do for a reasonable all out configuration. The 215cc 23deg version will likely be best for most guys wanting an 11.5-12:1 383-396 that exhibits excellent drivability and manages to make power to 7k or more depending on valvetrain. A larger version is something I'd personally like to do, but we need to determine if there is really a good reason to do it. It will be done once we determine what would be a significant & safe improvement over the 215cc 23deg head.
Serious business requires a serious top-end
. We have (on the shelf) a set of reverse cooled AllPro raised runner 23deg heads, but have yet to produce masters in them. They would be an option for someone who wouldn't revise their shortblock, but we may just sell them as-is. If one is willing to go through the expense of going to a purpose built top-end, then I can not imagine staying with any of the 2Xdeg heads. We had considered putting a racier LT specific package together by altering existing 13deg setups, but do not know what kind of demand there is for something like that.
Have a nice Christmas, guys.
Serious business requires a serious top-end
. We have (on the shelf) a set of reverse cooled AllPro raised runner 23deg heads, but have yet to produce masters in them. They would be an option for someone who wouldn't revise their shortblock, but we may just sell them as-is. If one is willing to go through the expense of going to a purpose built top-end, then I can not imagine staying with any of the 2Xdeg heads. We had considered putting a racier LT specific package together by altering existing 13deg setups, but do not know what kind of demand there is for something like that.Have a nice Christmas, guys.
i still like the idea of going fast with the 23 deg. stuff, sorta kinda why i stick with a six speed in my car, it is still a street car and i wouldn't have it any other way.
any conversion i do at this point is 3k plus. i know i could sell my junk for a few bucks but yes it still involves alot of changes.
pistons, fully assembled heads, intake, throtle body, fuel rails, plumb new fogger or sell and buy a plate kit, etc....
thanks for the response! i personally would love to do a 13 deg. setup if money permitted, who wouldn't, lol!!! a set of all pro's sounds pretty interesting as well. my heads were used from abortion racing engines, they were hand ported, flow was ****, there was even reversion at higher rpm. i sent them to Erik Bradby, he made improvements for me, and they do flow 300 at .600 and 309 at .700 lift, but that is of course all relative. in my eyes there is still better options out there for 23 degree cylinder heads.
look forward to more updates.
01-02-2009, 11:33 AM
#64
GIZMO, I was wondering how long it would be until relief location was mentioned.
Joelster, with an increased budget, the first thing we look for is increased durability & performance via improved valvetrain. Regardless of valve angle, getting away from budget oriented components & modified stock rocker systems is going to represent an appreciable increase in cost. However, relative to overall project cost it represents great value for the insurance & longevity it affords. If you want a set of Brodix 18xsp's, we likely have a set of those floating around here somewhere. They are better than an average 23deg top-end, but less than ideal for an LT application in our opinion.
Expensive and unacceptable are relative. Online, few are able to distinguish between price and value. If we cannot meet a performance goal consistently and reliably, then we wouldn't have a product we could put our name on. Whether it is an LS based engine or LT based engine, when you get into the 550-650rwhp range on pump fuel it is relatively costly to retain reliability.
We currently do sell all manner of top-end packages that can be adapted to the LT1. However, if the project budget is so strained that the user cannot afford components that are capable of reliably extracting the potential out of an improved head/manifold then the feasibility and/or goals of the project should be re-examined. That is, of course, our opinion.
Mike, may I ask if you don't mind sharing the data you have that leads you to make that assertion? PM if you like, just curious.
I also want to see the LT1 aftermarket step up in valve sizing and down in stem diameter. There's no purpose what so ever to run an 11/32 valve with the wide variety of 8mm LS stuff out there. 8mm valves cost the same and there's tons of good spring packages out there that cost less and perform better than most of the stuff that is currently commonly being used. There's no purpose to having a 2.02 intake valve with a 4.03 bore or a comp 918 with a steel retainer on an 847 sized cam.
If someone made something like a 230cc as cast head that flowed well out of the box... On the surface it seems simple, but in reality there is far more than stem diameter to getting this "right." Some of the common 8mm setups have more reciprocating mass than the custom light-weight 11/32" valves we currently run.
Puck, it isn't dead, we're just waiting on pricing and gathering ideas . I cannot speak for TFS, but we typically sell heads set up to accomodate .620-.650" net valve lift.
thanks for the response! i personally would love to do a 13 deg. setup if money permitted, who wouldn't, lol!!! a set of all pro's sounds pretty interesting as well. my heads were used from abortion racing engines, they were hand ported, flow was ****, there was even reversion at higher rpm. i sent them to Erik Bradby, he made improvements for me, and they do flow 300 at .600 and 309 at .700 lift, but that is of course all relative. in my eyes there is still better options out there for 23 degree cylinder heads.
look forward to more updates. Taner, absolutely. I'm sure you could see gains starting over and retaining the 23deg valve angle. I would bet EB told you that one thing most head guys dislike is attempting to tune up something that may have already been taken in the wrong direction. The probability (obviously) is that it would be more economical and represent a better value to start over and net 80-100hp for your investment vs. tweaking the existing setup for another 30-50 .
Thanks for the responses, guys! We'll keep checking in as time allows.
A 13 degree head will not be a cheap starting point no matter what. That will also require offset rockers, offset lifters, etc......I made a thread titled "Brodix?" and I think the best bet would be their 18 degree heads which allow all of the valvetrain components of a 23degree setup.
I think I am speaking for a lot of guys here, when I say that we need a bolt-on head/intake package that can flow over 330cfm (at least), support an easy 550+ N/A hp, and cost $2000-$2500. If someone were to develop a 13 degree setup with heads that cost $3000, shaft rockers that add $900, lifters that run $500, headers that run $600 a custom intake that runs $1000, the grand total would cost more than a VERY strong LS1 motor, which is simply unacceptable.
I think I am speaking for a lot of guys here, when I say that we need a bolt-on head/intake package that can flow over 330cfm (at least), support an easy 550+ N/A hp, and cost $2000-$2500. If someone were to develop a 13 degree setup with heads that cost $3000, shaft rockers that add $900, lifters that run $500, headers that run $600 a custom intake that runs $1000, the grand total would cost more than a VERY strong LS1 motor, which is simply unacceptable.
Expensive and unacceptable are relative
. Online, few are able to distinguish between price and value. If we cannot meet a performance goal consistently and reliably, then we wouldn't have a product we could put our name on. Whether it is an LS based engine or LT based engine, when you get into the 550-650rwhp range on pump fuel it is relatively costly to retain reliability.I also want to see the LT1 aftermarket step up in valve sizing and down in stem diameter. There's no purpose what so ever to run an 11/32 valve with the wide variety of 8mm LS stuff out there. 8mm valves cost the same and there's tons of good spring packages out there that cost less and perform better than most of the stuff that is currently commonly being used. There's no purpose to having a 2.02 intake valve with a 4.03 bore or a comp 918 with a steel retainer on an 847 sized cam.
If someone made something like a 230cc as cast head that flowed well out of the box...
Apologies for reviving a dead thread, and sorry if its been said but I searched and could not find it...what is the max lift of the 1.3" double springs being used on these heads?
I noticed AI's tests go all the way to .7" but I am assuming that is just for the sake of testing and not using a spring...
I noticed AI's tests go all the way to .7" but I am assuming that is just for the sake of testing and not using a spring...
. I cannot speak for TFS, but we typically sell heads set up to accomodate .620-.650" net valve lift.thanks for the response! i personally would love to do a 13 deg. setup if money permitted, who wouldn't, lol!!! a set of all pro's sounds pretty interesting as well. my heads were used from abortion racing engines, they were hand ported, flow was ****, there was even reversion at higher rpm. i sent them to Erik Bradby, he made improvements for me, and they do flow 300 at .600 and 309 at .700 lift, but that is of course all relative. in my eyes there is still better options out there for 23 degree cylinder heads.
look forward to more updates.
.Thanks for the responses, guys! We'll keep checking in as time allows.
01-02-2009, 12:03 PM
#65
I'm just saying that the average enthusiast (and thus, the aftermarket, who caters to the ones spending the money) shoots for max high lift flow. I wonder sometimes if we aren't neglecting some power to be gained by developing a port that maximizes low lift flow to simulate a 4v head.
Last edited by engineermike; 01-02-2009 at 12:56 PM.
01-02-2009, 12:07 PM
#66
Thanks for the great post that answered so many of our questions!
01-02-2009, 12:17 PM
#68
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https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...1-heads-2.html
02-01-2009, 02:48 PM
#70
02-01-2009, 03:12 PM
#71
I'm sure they can customize the chamber size for an individual user to be smaller or larger then what they are standard though.
Even at 55cc chambers you can easily get below 10:1cr with a stock thickness head gasket and a -20+cc dish piston. SRP makes forged blower pistons that work on LT1s with a -30cc or more dish for almost 9:1CR on stock head ccs.
02-01-2009, 05:09 PM
#75
How much boost do you expect to run, how much power do you want to make, and how much money do you want to spend?
You may find that a cheaper option may be mroe then enough for what you want.
02-01-2009, 08:08 PM
#76
A while back, my friend did an interesting dyno test. He built a Late Model dirt track engine (~650 hp SBC) and ran 2 sets of heads, both starting life as nearly identical Brodix castings. One set was ported for max flow at high lift, while the other was modified concentrating on low lift flow (flowbench results verified). The heads with more low lift flow outperformed the other set across the board. The bonus is that the ports didn't need to be modified as extensively to get low lift flow versus high lift.
I'm just saying that the average enthusiast (and thus, the aftermarket, who caters to the ones spending the money) shoots for max high lift flow. I wonder sometimes if we aren't neglecting some power to be gained by developing a port that maximizes low lift flow to simulate a 4v head.
I'm just saying that the average enthusiast (and thus, the aftermarket, who caters to the ones spending the money) shoots for max high lift flow. I wonder sometimes if we aren't neglecting some power to be gained by developing a port that maximizes low lift flow to simulate a 4v head.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...heads-cam.html
02-02-2009, 10:35 AM
#77
A while back, my friend did an interesting dyno test. He built a Late Model dirt track engine (~650 hp SBC) and ran 2 sets of heads, both starting life as nearly identical Brodix castings. One set was ported for max flow at high lift, while the other was modified concentrating on low lift flow (flowbench results verified). The heads with more low lift flow outperformed the other set across the board. The bonus is that the ports didn't need to be modified as extensively to get low lift flow versus high lift.
I'm just saying that the average enthusiast (and thus, the aftermarket, who caters to the ones spending the money) shoots for max high lift flow. I wonder sometimes if we aren't neglecting some power to be gained by developing a port that maximizes low lift flow to simulate a 4v head.
I'm just saying that the average enthusiast (and thus, the aftermarket, who caters to the ones spending the money) shoots for max high lift flow. I wonder sometimes if we aren't neglecting some power to be gained by developing a port that maximizes low lift flow to simulate a 4v head.
. Based on our experience, it is our belief that focusing on any one aspect of flowbench racing is unlikely to produce the best results over a broad rpm range for applications like street/strip cars. That is certainly not to imply that I doubt what your friend saw & relayed to you. I am a little confised as to which heads are the new ones and which flow numbers are correct. Maybe you could clear it up. See thread below.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...1-heads-2.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...1-heads-2.html
.We have been told that we will have final pricing info in a couple of weeks. At that point we will be able to finalize our CNC'd packages & share pricing/info. Hopefully castings will follow shortly thereafter & we can get to making chips.
The first post is anoter example of correlation data:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...heads-cam.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...heads-cam.html
Thanks guys, we'll update as we are provided info & castings!
03-17-2009, 08:20 AM
#79
Update:
The as cast assembled 21deg head from TFS will be $1500 and we have been told to anticipate castings in April...
It will likely be May-June before we are able to ensure our complete CNC'd packages based on this casting complete testing & become available to you guys. While none of us want to wait, TFS taking the time to ensure their product is truly ready for public release is for the best.
We'll attempt to update you guys as we make progress & time allows. Thanks!
The as cast assembled 21deg head from TFS will be $1500 and we have been told to anticipate castings in April...
It will likely be May-June before we are able to ensure our complete CNC'd packages based on this casting complete testing & become available to you guys. While none of us want to wait, TFS taking the time to ensure their product is truly ready for public release is for the best.
We'll attempt to update you guys as we make progress & time allows. Thanks!
