Bottom end was real nice..fitment side of them I do have to say they sat too close to the plug wires and burning has been a issue. OTVC is the best way to go with the Macs.

 

Ok let me explain. SSautochrome made the first batch of LS1 headers 3+ years ago but they had problems so I contacted them about redesigning them to fit better. They do not manufacture them they work with a small manufacture in GA that actually makes them. In the 3+ years that the headers have been around no one has contacted me about ever having any problem with quality or workmanship. No welds cracking no collectors falling off nothing.
In the very near future the manufacture will be shipping all the headers directly to me so they will be shipping from here soon.
So George can look up my address too and say he sees nothing here too since I have rented a warehouse to store them in.
The tags were a screw up from the manufacture that problem has been addressed and corrected for future products.
As far as George from Kooks goes I'm not getting into petty childish mud slinging with him.
I stand behind my products and will let my customers be my critics.
Just not everyone in business likes to play nice.
When the LT1 first came out I advertised them with having High Velocity Merge Collectors but I abbreviated which caused QTP to contact me because HVMC is a trademark of theirs. They just asked me to remove it so I did and they thanked me and then wished me good luck with my venture into the header market
Guess it shows you that not all manufacture are scared of a little competition.

 

We run Kooks on all of our cars and have never had an issue.

The mudslinging aside...one thing you guys need to keep in mind is there is a big difference between being a 1-2 man show with a contract manufacturer (wherever they are made) vs. a full fledged 40 employee company with millions of dollars in equipment, a dealer network and serious tech support. Also, don't forget the cost of owning the building you operate in, doing things like serious advertising, sponsorships, R&D, insurance, taxes, and all that come with being a real manufactuer.

Basically what I discribed right there above is the very difference in price between these two brands. Kooks, ARH, SW, QTP and LG are all very competitive with one another..and if there was a way to lop several hundred off the price of a set of headers and for them to function normally as a manufactuer..someone would do it. Yet when you price shop...there is not a tone of price difference between all the manufacturers despite the intense competition. That tells you that in that business structure, making that product in the US there is not a lot of downward price elasticity.

Also don't forget the kickbacks you get with dealing with one of these manufactuerers. I have had plenty of customers tell me they have been to a Kooks sponsored event or toured their plant, and it was a great experiance. Or they called Kooks over an issue, and it was fixed immediatly. If you want to ask questions about Kooks, you can call them or anyone in their huge dealer network, and they talk someones ear off for a half hour. Well guess what...that kind of stuff costs money..plain and simple. And this is not Kooks specific..this is any business. Now I cannot speak for LPP's support...they may be great. However after they intend to grow, and move any kind of volume they will eventually have to add the same overhead interms of staff, R&D, and general business expenses that Kooks already has. What happens when they need dealers because they can't handle all the sales and support? They will need dealers who will also have to make money. When that does happen, guess what..their prices will also go up.

Taking things another step...Kooks could easily off shore all their production to China and knock plenty of money off the price because you can use a smaller facility..less empoyees and what not. Manufacturing jobs would be lost in the US, but no one seems to care about that...so let's move on to the consumer. What does that mean for the consumer? It means that R&D will take forever because of the distance between designers and the production facilities. It means any change made to the product will take forever to filter in to the parts that you buy today. Kooks sells a lot of cool custom things they don't inventory and make custom when someone buys them. I am talking things like stepped headers, 2" Vette headers and so forth. If they outsource production, say goodbye to that. If something is on backorder, plan on waiting months for the boat to dock. Suddenly the cheaper price may not be worth it..

Now it is a free country, and people can buy what they want all day long for whatever reason. A lot of businesses have very humble roots including Kooks and myself, so I do understand LPP on that point and wish anyone the best of luck in this business. (because you need all you can get). Just know as a consumer...you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't shop at Walmart to save money and expect to get Target quality experiance, housewares or clothes. There is more to the purchasing than what is cheapest. For instance I wonder how many people here have name brand shoes on right now. If price was the end all, you guys would be wearing some Payless sneakers that cost 1/3rd less. I don't see threads here bashing Nike for being over priced? Either way...I am done going on...in short...buy what you want..but at least think a little bit about it beyond price.

 

Well for one thing we also have to deal with advertising, sponsorships, R&D, insurance, and taxes, for now we are not passing any of this to the customer and your right one day we will have to up our prices some but will never get as high as other companies charge for their products. And I'm really getting sick of everyone saying they have to be made in China because of the price. This venture is a few small people commented to providing higher quality products at a much more reasonable price. Non of us are in this to become millionaires. As long as we can all make just a little money we will all be happy.

 

Well as far as the China thing...that is in your court to fix...I mean I can go to Kooks site and take a video tour of the facility. Why not post up some pictures of happy Americans running them through the bender and welding them if your so tired of hearing people say it? Then no one can say anything about them being made in China.

Also, Kooks claims you can't get 321 SS in the US.

This makes me think one of three things.

1. They are made from imported stainless.
2. They are made from imported stainless bent overseas, then shipped here to be welded.
3. They are made in China.

Either way..you are the one who controls how people percieve your business. If you are concerned people incorrectly think they are made in China..it would seem easy for you to prove otherwise.

As for overhead..like I said...there is a serious overhead difference between running a serious manufacturing and custom exhaust business like Kooks, and whatever you are doing to "help people out and make a little money" (as you make it sound in your post). For instance Kooks was the title sponsor of several major events last year to the tune of several thousand dollar each. That is a big expense for any company here. Anyway..I have nothing against you..or don't pretend to know anything about your business...I am making observations any educated consumer would. That being said..it is a free market...and like I said..I wish you luck because we all need it

 

Well here's one company that is in the US that has 321 stainless that Kooks pointed out in their post.

http://www.burnsstainless.com/321tub...raight321.html

And your correct Kooks has a lot more overhead than we do for now. That's why I said one day our prices may go up some but never to what other header companies charge.

 

Just curious if the LPP's well be made with a ceramic coating so they don't turn colors after some time. I've had BBK shorties on my car for 3 years and have no color issues, Still have the chrome finish just like they did the day I bought them!!!

 

LOL! You guys are some sad sad people.
First off, I would not give my info to any other competitor, he is a small fish in a big pond and that could ruin him.
Second, He is a small company and does not have the overhead that alot of other big companies do and at least for now, that means much better prices for all of us.
Third, Unless you can prove to us by going over to china and taking pics of the headers being made you all should just chill and stop saying stuff you cant prove.

Everyone that bought them is happy with them and would recommend them to a friend.

 

OMG so I guess the issue will die if photos are posted? Whatever!!!

If that's the case then I guess there really is a squirrel standing up with a pair of nuts the size of tennis *****, must be true cause I saw a photo. What I am trying to say is the **** sling will continue no matter what pics are posted because someone will call photoshop or similar. Pictures prove nada in the digital age.

Everyone knows that if a manufacturer is posting BS on the net, then the truth will eventually be exposed. Why would LPP take a chance like that and risk egg on face?

As far as I see it, its is nobodies ******* business how the product is produced. You can decide to purchase it or pass it up for another product if you don't like the information currently available. If Carl is lying, then it will be exposed then he can decide what response is appropriate and pay the price on the net. Where is the common sense here.

I dont care too much for made in China myself, but it is totally legal and widely accepted, but looked down upon as we all know.

 

Plus LPP has already proven that Kooks is full of **** by posting a link to an American vendor that sells 321 stainless.

 

I also thought kooks said in one thread 321 wasnt available in china wich meant they couldnt be 321.
Anyways It doesnt matter everyone is going to keep buying them regaurdless. He sold 75 sets of LT1 headers within a few months wich is alot and I dont see that changing on his next batch. All I see is other companies that hate on him losing more sales because of these posts.

 

Another pacesetter lt's with ory.... x50 million

 

The place he linked to is not a mill, it is a 3rd party place that resells stainless, who could have bought their tubing from a mill in China. No header manufactuer would buy exhaust from any place but direct from a mill because of the cost savings.

What Kooks is trying to say is 321 is rare in the US and costs twice as much as 304 (which is used for almost all stainless exhaust in the US). Why would you use stainless that is twice as expensive as the best your competition uses when you are trying to "help out people with cheap parts". On the other hand, 321 is very common in China, and every other chinabay stainless header uses it.

Like I said before..Carl seems to be the one bothered by the perception they are Chinese headers....but he is also the one who can disprove it.

 

im in the same boat. as soon as they come out im buying them with the y

 

Um this a qoute from George and according to him 321 is not available in china!!!

"The header pictured is our design. We have been building headers for 45 years when you purchase product from us you deal with us. What we have here is someone that took our American made product and sent it to china or somewhere in the Far East. To have copied and we wonder why our economy is in the crapper. We could do the same thing but that is not what American made muscle cars deserve the deserve the very best American made product. If you purchase our product you get the company support as well as some of the finest American made headers available in today’s market. We use all 304 S/S including the flanges these are 321 321 is not even available over there so that’s a lie. Second the flanges are plated steel flanges not solid S/S likes ours. I can tell where they are made because over there they do not use 2 1/2 radius in there mandrel benders only 3" that’s why the wide sweep out of the flange. We can go on and on. Remember American made cars deserve American made performance Parts."

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Last edited by GeorgeR@kooks; 09-22-2008 at 02:04 PM..

 

I would just like to know, for curiosity's sake, what aspects of the LPP design were taken from the various LT1 headers currently on the market. With the exception of the collectors, material, the fact that they are stepped, and my Jet Hot ceramic coating, everything about them is the spitting image of my Kooks. The primary routing appears to be the same. The orientation of the O2 bungs appears to be the same. The flanges appear to be the same and the y-pipe appears to be the same. That doesn't leave a lot of room for design differences between the two brands.

Based on that, I don't understand why someone would get blasted for commenting that they appear to be very close copies of Kooks design, or wonder aloud whether they were reverse engineered using a set of Kooks. I have no idea what the ethical, or legal, ramifications would be from making such an admission, but the implication sure seems to ruffle a lot of feathers.

 

Not to me. I could care less if they a identical copies, if the price is half thats what Im going to buy. Also it is not for me to determine thats what lawyers are for and apparently they couldnt prove anything.

 

I assume you have evaluated the actual Kooks headers (full disclosure here, which you do own) directly next to the LPP headers on the same bench and you can detail the actual similarities that result in this question being asked.

I assume you have some evidence of some kind other than the similar specs IE: SS, stepped, pipe size etc.

I assume you may have been involved in determining the mission and marketing goals for the LPP product in question.

I assume you have visibility to the actual CAD or equivalent engineering drawings for the product in question to pose this question.

Maybe Carl should have dumped the y-pipe out the front of the car as to discourage the amount of suspicion.
No your question was not offensive.

But I can certainly state this. LPP did NOT copy the price. We will just assume you are pissed for spending $1200 - $1500 for the Kooks.

And furthermore.
Your comments are irresponsible and based off of nothing factual except web photos, the opinion of someone working for Kooks and your "almost certain belief that LPP copied their product from another.

I AM CERTAIN YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THE KOOKS AND THE LPP'S SIDE BY SIDE TO MAKE A FAIR COMPARISON.

I am not uptight. I am pointing out the obvious that most any fair minded person would agree with. Put your self in the shoes of the folks at LPP. How would you feel if someone posted these comments regarding your product with out factual information especially if no "copying" really took place? Why would you want to tarnish a manufacturer if nothing un-ethical is taking place? You have proven nothing.

I will assure you that there was plenty of ethical competitive analysis that did take place, but that is not the same as all out copying. It has already been pointed out that the flanges and collectors are day night different.

 

most of the people on this board have parts from other countries on their mexican/canadian muscle cars

who cares where they are made as long as its a quality part

I mean ****, ShamWow is made in Germany and everyone knows the Germans make good things

 

Do you work for LPP, or were you somehow involved in the development of these headers? The only reason I ask is that you seem awfully defensive. I've stated that I've done nothing but compare my headers to the numerous LPP photographs posted on various Camaro sites. Based on that alone, they appear to be very close replicas of the Kooks. If you weren't involved in the design, development etc., it would be interesting to hear how you know what degree of ethical competitive analysis actually took place. If the guy started from scratch, didn't reverse engineer anything, and ended up with a header that essentially looks identical to the Kooks, that would be quite the coincidence. That's just my opinion. If that is, in fact, the case, why not just come out and say it? If I wasn't a Kooks owner, I probably wouldn't be at all interested. But, I am, and I am.