stock rockers with cam swap
02-19-2009, 11:18 AM
#21
The IHRA actually allows the use of roller rockers for Stock , but NHRA rules do not. As stated above, I have tried 1.5 rollers and did not gain anything. I guess the argument could be made for reliability, but I have never had a stock rocker fail. I do know other people who have had failures, but I have my own theory on that too.
02-19-2009, 12:16 PM
#22
The IHRA actually allows the use of roller rockers for Stock , but NHRA rules do not. As stated above, I have tried 1.5 rollers and did not gain anything. I guess the argument could be made for reliability, but I have never had a stock rocker fail. I do know other people who have had failures, but I have my own theory on that too.
02-19-2009, 01:15 PM
#25
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Well I have 9k miles on my CC306 with stock rockers. I have had no problems and I occasionally take it to 6400rpm and it gets a nice shot of the giggly gas too. I will be stepping up to some RR here in the future. But they can wait. My alum. headed fox worked for 5 years with stock rockers, thats with a .600" lift cam. It made countless low 11 sec passes well into the 7k rpm range. If you can afford it definately do it. It is beneficial in more ways than one, plus that added saftey margin. But there are many people running stock rockers. If you do keep stock and can afford some ARP studs I would do that. Thats my .02$
D
D
02-19-2009, 01:28 PM
#26
I had it at 6.98 @ 98.23 mph in bracket mode. From memory, the best it ran was a high 6.8 @ 99 mph. It had stock rods, TRW forged pistons, a lunati 256/266 duration cam .478/.490 lift, TH-350 with 4800 stall, 4.88 gears and 9" x 30" tires, and 3250 lb race weight. If I were running the same combination today I think I could get it to run in the 6.40's.
02-19-2009, 01:37 PM
#27
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I had it at 6.98 @ 98.23 mph in bracket mode. From memory, the best it ran was a high 6.8 @ 99 mph. It had stock rods, TRW forged pistons, a lunati 256/266 duration cam .478/.490 lift, TH-350 with 4800 stall, 4.88 gears and 9" x 30" tires, and 3250 lb race weight. If I were running the same combination today I think I could get it to run in the 6.40's.
D
Now it has 150 shot, 4.10s, a clutch, and an ignition.
02-19-2009, 01:38 PM
#28
I had it at 6.98 @ 98.23 mph in bracket mode. From memory, the best it ran was a high 6.8 @ 99 mph. It had stock rods, TRW forged pistons, a lunati 256/266 duration cam .478/.490 lift, TH-350 with 4800 stall, 4.88 gears and 9" x 30" tires, and 3250 lb race weight. If I were running the same combination today I think I could get it to run in the 6.40's.
02-19-2009, 06:53 PM
#30
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Gee, I didn't know that being rational could be considered daft. I find it ironic that you're in opposition of using a used roller rocker, when reusing stock 100k mileage rockers is the same damn thing.
I mentioned the gaskets and fluids and such, because that's an incorporated cost with doing a swap, much like roller rockers should be.
And about Daren - he HAS to use stock rockers for his class. I'm sure he would use full roller rockers if he could, as the benefits far outweigh what the stockers can provide.
Why disconnect the battery, remove the belt, remove the alternator, take the valve covers off, remove the old rockers, remove the old springs and hardware, reinstall the rockers, set valve lash, bolt the valve covers back on, reinstall the alternator, then a month or two later disconnect the battery AGAIN, remove the belt AGAIN, take the alternator off AGAIN, take the valve covers off AGAIN, remove the old rockers AGAIN, install the new rockers AGAIN, set valve lash AGAIN, reinstall the valve covers AGAIN, and reinstall the alternator AGAIN, when you could've done it once, the first time.
Redundant I know...perhaps I really am "daft."
I mentioned the gaskets and fluids and such, because that's an incorporated cost with doing a swap, much like roller rockers should be.
And about Daren - he HAS to use stock rockers for his class. I'm sure he would use full roller rockers if he could, as the benefits far outweigh what the stockers can provide.
Why disconnect the battery, remove the belt, remove the alternator, take the valve covers off, remove the old rockers, remove the old springs and hardware, reinstall the rockers, set valve lash, bolt the valve covers back on, reinstall the alternator, then a month or two later disconnect the battery AGAIN, remove the belt AGAIN, take the alternator off AGAIN, take the valve covers off AGAIN, remove the old rockers AGAIN, install the new rockers AGAIN, set valve lash AGAIN, reinstall the valve covers AGAIN, and reinstall the alternator AGAIN, when you could've done it once, the first time.
Redundant I know...perhaps I really am "daft."
And clearly you don't know as much as you think, since he only has to for NHRA, he doesn't have to run in that, and even so he could swap them for NHRA races. Then there's Ihasfip who's gone 9K on stockers. Which brings me to the fact that we're talking STEEL vs (with the exception of Pro Mags) Aluminum. I've seen some of the threads on here with people asking if these used RRs will be fine, and the pictures with gashes in the sides from who knows what stupid user error. Then another where user error struck again and next to the rollers they were beat up from the valve tip. I'll use my originals that I've never heard of failing (and by all means, I'm honestly open to you showing me failed GM stamped steel non roller fulcrum) vs second hand rollers.
So keep talking
02-20-2009, 05:54 AM
#32
Nope, I'm still sticking with you being daft. You don't have to disconnect the battery as you're not welding or working on anything electrical. The removal of the alternator is not required, just removing one bolt and loosening up another. The belt doesn't have to come all the way off, you just take it off the alternator and let it sit on the rest of the pulleys. I know this all for a fact, I did it just to take a look under my valve covers for no other reason than just to look. And we're talking months between doing the cam and the rockers, so you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
And clearly you don't know as much as you think, since he only has to for NHRA, he doesn't have to run in that, and even so he could swap them for NHRA races. Then there's Ihasfip who's gone 9K on stockers. Which brings me to the fact that we're talking STEEL vs (with the exception of Pro Mags) Aluminum. I've seen some of the threads on here with people asking if these used RRs will be fine, and the pictures with gashes in the sides from who knows what stupid user error. Then another where user error struck again and next to the rollers they were beat up from the valve tip. I'll use my originals that I've never heard of failing (and by all means, I'm honestly open to you showing me failed GM stamped steel non roller fulcrum) vs second hand rollers.
So keep talking
And clearly you don't know as much as you think, since he only has to for NHRA, he doesn't have to run in that, and even so he could swap them for NHRA races. Then there's Ihasfip who's gone 9K on stockers. Which brings me to the fact that we're talking STEEL vs (with the exception of Pro Mags) Aluminum. I've seen some of the threads on here with people asking if these used RRs will be fine, and the pictures with gashes in the sides from who knows what stupid user error. Then another where user error struck again and next to the rollers they were beat up from the valve tip. I'll use my originals that I've never heard of failing (and by all means, I'm honestly open to you showing me failed GM stamped steel non roller fulcrum) vs second hand rollers.
So keep talking
If you don't want to disconnect the battery - fine. That's your perogative. But damn near every procedure in the GM manual recommends disconnecting the battery. Perhaps an extra 30 seconds of your time isn't worth it. Oh wait...then you have to reset the clock on your radio. DAMN!
I might not know everything about his class or what he races or what parts he uses or whether he uses scented or unscented toilet paper, so what? We're not talking about the OP racing in NHRA. He's driving on the street.
My point is why do it all twice? That's my argument. You want to resort to calling me daft to make yourself feel better, that's fine. Apparently you have bigger internet ***** than I do. Fortunately this is a forum where people are free to post opinions based on their experiences. Whatever the original poster chooses to do is solely up to him. I'm done with this.
Either way, good luck 3rdgen92maro.
02-20-2009, 06:37 AM
#34
I have seen guys snap stock studs at .510 lift because the stock rocker slot bottomed, and others run .550 without a problem. Have to watch geometry and make sure the stock rockers are consistent.
One thing I think needs to be considered with GIZMO's setup is it is not the spring pressure we run, believe they run much lower spring pressures. It is 1/4 mile blasts, not an hour idling in traffic with little oil getting too the topend. Is "stock lift" not counting the loft, I do not know how much they loft.
The OP never told us what cam or lift he planned to run either????
Also the argument about gaskets and such was pointless, yes he will have to adjust the rockers twice if he goes back and swaps rockers later but he should not need any new gaskets. I have NEVER bought an LT1 valvecover gasket, stockers have always been reusable.
We all do things out of impatience or budgetary concern that we would have prefered not too. When I first got my heads and cam package I ran the car for a week with stock hardened pushrods because I was too impatient to wait for the new ones to arrive, luckily 7.200 was the right size.
I find it pretty frustrating how you guys bash someone for trying to save a buck on periferals while you will praise someone for saving a little on much more important parts as having made a good choice. People's priorities are way out of order.
One thing I think needs to be considered with GIZMO's setup is it is not the spring pressure we run, believe they run much lower spring pressures. It is 1/4 mile blasts, not an hour idling in traffic with little oil getting too the topend. Is "stock lift" not counting the loft, I do not know how much they loft.
The OP never told us what cam or lift he planned to run either????
Also the argument about gaskets and such was pointless, yes he will have to adjust the rockers twice if he goes back and swaps rockers later but he should not need any new gaskets. I have NEVER bought an LT1 valvecover gasket, stockers have always been reusable.
We all do things out of impatience or budgetary concern that we would have prefered not too. When I first got my heads and cam package I ran the car for a week with stock hardened pushrods because I was too impatient to wait for the new ones to arrive, luckily 7.200 was the right size.
I find it pretty frustrating how you guys bash someone for trying to save a buck on periferals while you will praise someone for saving a little on much more important parts as having made a good choice. People's priorities are way out of order.
02-20-2009, 06:39 PM
#35
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I have seen guys snap stock studs at .510 lift because the stock rocker slot bottomed, and others run .550 without a problem. Have to watch geometry and make sure the stock rockers are consistent.
One thing I think needs to be considered with GIZMO's setup is it is not the spring pressure we run, believe they run much lower spring pressures. It is 1/4 mile blasts, not an hour idling in traffic with little oil getting too the topend. Is "stock lift" not counting the loft, I do not know how much they loft.
The OP never told us what cam or lift he planned to run either????
Also the argument about gaskets and such was pointless, yes he will have to adjust the rockers twice if he goes back and swaps rockers later but he should not need any new gaskets. I have NEVER bought an LT1 valvecover gasket, stockers have always been reusable.
We all do things out of impatience or budgetary concern that we would have prefered not too. When I first got my heads and cam package I ran the car for a week with stock hardened pushrods because I was too impatient to wait for the new ones to arrive, luckily 7.200 was the right size.
I find it pretty frustrating how you guys bash someone for trying to save a buck on periferals while you will praise someone for saving a little on much more important parts as having made a good choice. People's priorities are way out of order.
One thing I think needs to be considered with GIZMO's setup is it is not the spring pressure we run, believe they run much lower spring pressures. It is 1/4 mile blasts, not an hour idling in traffic with little oil getting too the topend. Is "stock lift" not counting the loft, I do not know how much they loft.
The OP never told us what cam or lift he planned to run either????
Also the argument about gaskets and such was pointless, yes he will have to adjust the rockers twice if he goes back and swaps rockers later but he should not need any new gaskets. I have NEVER bought an LT1 valvecover gasket, stockers have always been reusable.
We all do things out of impatience or budgetary concern that we would have prefered not too. When I first got my heads and cam package I ran the car for a week with stock hardened pushrods because I was too impatient to wait for the new ones to arrive, luckily 7.200 was the right size.
I find it pretty frustrating how you guys bash someone for trying to save a buck on periferals while you will praise someone for saving a little on much more important parts as having made a good choice. People's priorities are way out of order.
That was my initial point of it all, that it's not a required item and not everyone has the extra $200-350 ONTOP of what they just spent on a cam and necessary items. Then my second point, which Cap seems to agree on, is there isn't any extra money being spent for gaskets and the required time to remove the valve covers is equally insignificant compared to the whole cam swap. AND doing stock rockers is pretty damn easy compared to doing rollers. I'm not sure of the time it takes to do them, but stockers take all of about 10mins, 15 if you've not done it many times before.
And you're getting pretty fired up over a trivial word like 'daft'. It's not like I'm saying you're '******* retarded' or anything along them lines
And me calling someone that doesn't effect me in any way. And you're absolutely right about it being a forum where a person is free to express their opinions. Except you're making it out like it's wrong for someone to run stockers on an aftermarket cam, and that they're stupid to run the stockers and then upgrade to RRs later on because of having to go through adjusting again. Had you gone about expressing your opinion in a less biased manner, I'd never had gotten on anyones case. You could've just said "If you have the extra money, it'd be worth your while to upgrade to rollers, and you then wouldn't have to go about adjusting rockers again when you do get them". Simple as that :\
02-20-2009, 11:57 PM
#36
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For what its worth, here are some nice affordable full roller SA rockers for 169.00 NEW, they have others available, even in NSA, don't know the price on the NSA.
KMJ Performance: www.kmjent.com
The company that makes them: PRW
KMJ Performance: www.kmjent.com
The company that makes them: PRW
02-21-2009, 09:51 AM
#38
One guy on another forum I frequent loved his ProComp shafts, till they came apart, luckily he caught it before it took out the whole engine.
I have some ProForms I ran with 110lbs on the seat and .510 lift for a while, they are fine and will one day find themselves on my wagon, BUT I would not use them on anything but a very mild setup. Certainly not on what I have now.
I have some ProForms I ran with 110lbs on the seat and .510 lift for a while, they are fine and will one day find themselves on my wagon, BUT I would not use them on anything but a very mild setup. Certainly not on what I have now.
02-21-2009, 10:21 AM
#39
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My opinion, wait till you can afford some nice full roller rocker arms, before you attempt this. If the geometry isn't right, you will start to wear out the slot in the stock rocker and have metal in your oil.
02-21-2009, 10:27 AM
#40
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One guy on another forum I frequent loved his ProComp shafts, till they came apart, luckily he caught it before it took out the whole engine.
I have some ProForms I ran with 110lbs on the seat and .510 lift for a while, they are fine and will one day find themselves on my wagon, BUT I would not use them on anything but a very mild setup. Certainly not on what I have now.
I have some ProForms I ran with 110lbs on the seat and .510 lift for a while, they are fine and will one day find themselves on my wagon, BUT I would not use them on anything but a very mild setup. Certainly not on what I have now.
96caprice, i have a couple questions for ya, i'll send you a PM.
