Getting heads ported and polish???
08-15-2009, 05:14 PM
#42
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hmm, I guess I was not aware there ever was a first side of the story until now.
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
08-15-2009, 05:43 PM
#43
hmm, I guess I was not aware there ever was a first side of the story until now.
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
08-15-2009, 05:43 PM
#44
thank you for clearing things up. sorry i didnt answer when you called lloyd i was taking care of some stuff. I will back getting back in contact with you. I did however speak with you over email. I have always heard good things about your products where i live which is only about 5 hours away from you. I live in southeast texas right on the gulf. Thanks again
Mike
Mike
08-15-2009, 06:20 PM
#45
hmm, I guess I was not aware there ever was a first side of the story until now.
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
That is the reason for my post as it seemd there was something being said I was obviusly not aware of. I am not sure how I could have handled the situation any nicer for him.
? ? ? ? ?
Lloyd
08-15-2009, 06:34 PM
#46
To the OP....There are others who do fantastic head work other than just the two that are always spoken about... If LE is close to you and you feel comfortable with what he is suggesting then by all means use him...These threads always spark debates on who's better...Its your job to sift through the info and find what's right for you...For me I use and will continue to use Lingenfelter and Eric Bradby (E.B. Porting)...Thats just me and my experience of 15 years of playing in LT1 infested waters...
This is supposed to be a fun hobby...Pick your porter and go fast!!
--Alan
This is supposed to be a fun hobby...Pick your porter and go fast!!
--Alan
08-15-2009, 09:24 PM
#47
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Elliott,
whoever installed your parts were probably looking for some scapegoat when the valves were bent.
IF the cam was installed properly and degreed, you would have NOT bent the intake valves.
IF piston to valve clearance was checked, they would have found a problem and rechecked the cam degreeing.
Lots of people get "cam degreeing" on the bill when a degree wheel was never installed. the more you are around engine building, the more you see this happen.
223 duration cams with .565 lift do not leave .040" deep grooves in the pistons when installed properly. If they wanna blame the heads being milled .035 for doing this (and just ignore the fact that the valve job offset the difference in PTV clearance) than you can blow that out of the water by the fact that if the heads were not milled any at all, there would still be .005" deep grooves in the pistons with the way the cam was installed. . . . . .? ? ? ?
Anyone with a CC 503 (224/230 .533/.544 112 LSA cam) that has ever checked PTV clearance can attest that there is over .100" clearance and still plenty of PTV clearance. I have plenty of people with much larger cams and no PTV problems running heads done the same way.
If the cam was degreed and PTV was checked (considered part of assembling an engine or installing a heads/cam, set-up) the valves would never have bent and you would still be driving the set up.
As much as they say it was degreed, the facts state otherwise and I am sure that they would love to put the blame for your jacked up bottom end on who ever else thay can regardless of there neglegence.
As mentioned, I guess I wanted the "other side of the story" told since apparently there was already a first side out there I had no idea about.
I wish you good luck as well and as long as you have people assemble your engine properly, you will be happy with TEA, AI, LE, Killians, EB, etc heads. The complimenting parts and ability to work out the details (gear, stall, weight, tuning, etc) are what make the car fast.
Just a parting question though, did you have the same people assemble this set up that installed the last set up since seem to ahve convinced you that they apparently did nothing wrong?
Lloyd
whoever installed your parts were probably looking for some scapegoat when the valves were bent.
IF the cam was installed properly and degreed, you would have NOT bent the intake valves.
IF piston to valve clearance was checked, they would have found a problem and rechecked the cam degreeing.
Lots of people get "cam degreeing" on the bill when a degree wheel was never installed. the more you are around engine building, the more you see this happen.
223 duration cams with .565 lift do not leave .040" deep grooves in the pistons when installed properly. If they wanna blame the heads being milled .035 for doing this (and just ignore the fact that the valve job offset the difference in PTV clearance) than you can blow that out of the water by the fact that if the heads were not milled any at all, there would still be .005" deep grooves in the pistons with the way the cam was installed. . . . . .? ? ? ?
Anyone with a CC 503 (224/230 .533/.544 112 LSA cam) that has ever checked PTV clearance can attest that there is over .100" clearance and still plenty of PTV clearance. I have plenty of people with much larger cams and no PTV problems running heads done the same way.
If the cam was degreed and PTV was checked (considered part of assembling an engine or installing a heads/cam, set-up) the valves would never have bent and you would still be driving the set up.
As much as they say it was degreed, the facts state otherwise and I am sure that they would love to put the blame for your jacked up bottom end on who ever else thay can regardless of there neglegence.
As mentioned, I guess I wanted the "other side of the story" told since apparently there was already a first side out there I had no idea about.
I wish you good luck as well and as long as you have people assemble your engine properly, you will be happy with TEA, AI, LE, Killians, EB, etc heads. The complimenting parts and ability to work out the details (gear, stall, weight, tuning, etc) are what make the car fast.
Just a parting question though, did you have the same people assemble this set up that installed the last set up since seem to ahve convinced you that they apparently did nothing wrong?
Lloyd
08-15-2009, 11:50 PM
#48
to the OP, just call the shops you are interested in (AI, Killians, etc) and see who you feel comfortable with.
.
Elliotts first set up was LE2 heads and a small 218/224 .544.544 111 LSA cam but before he installed the cam he decided to go a lil larger so he sent me the 218/224 cam and I got him a lil larger (but still small) 223/230 .565/.565 109 LSA cam at no charge.
He had someone else do the work (install heads, cam, etc) and ended up bending the intake valves and putting .040" deep grooves in the pistons from the intake valves crashing into them.
Cam was never degreed and piston to valve clearance was obviously never checked but the cam must have been 1 tooth off (advanced). The cam went into his buddies car and worked great so the cam was not the problem.
His heads were milled about .035" instead of the usual .010-.015". When milling the heads this extra amount, I always machine the valve job .020" deeper so you end up with the same piston to valve clearance as the regular milled head but with more compression.
To put .040" deep grooves in each piston, there had to be NEGATIVE .010-.020 piston to valve clearance. I would think you would notice the engine being hard to spin over as you rotated the engine and adjusted the valves since every intake valve was hitting the piston. That should have made some hideous noises as it was running also.
A simple clay test to check PTV clearance would have saved alot of time and $$$ while also alerting that the cam is not installed properly.
Elliott sent the heads to me and I did him another set for free but re-using his valves, springs, retainers, locks, etc. I did throw in 4 new intake valves for him (free of charge) since 4 were bent so severly that they would not spin out on the valve grinder. He wanted the new set to be milled a lil less and so they were milled just enough to make them flat. The valve job was also machined in the typical spot so these heads would have gave him an extra .010" in piston to valve clearance over the previous heads but still not enough to clear if the cam was off far enough to leave .040 deep grooves in the piston.
Elliott ended up selling this set of heads to another member on one of the forums before installing them.
His old heads were cleaned up and sold to a customer for a discount with all new part. He is running a 236/240 .592/.592 112 LSA cam on a stock bottom end using Mr Gasket 5716 head gaskets with no PTV clearance problems. This cam was degreed and installed properly though.
I believe Elliotts new AI set up has the cam installed correctly and PTV was probably checked also. I am sure he is happy with the way the car runs when set up properly.
Lloyd
.
Elliotts first set up was LE2 heads and a small 218/224 .544.544 111 LSA cam but before he installed the cam he decided to go a lil larger so he sent me the 218/224 cam and I got him a lil larger (but still small) 223/230 .565/.565 109 LSA cam at no charge.
He had someone else do the work (install heads, cam, etc) and ended up bending the intake valves and putting .040" deep grooves in the pistons from the intake valves crashing into them.
Cam was never degreed and piston to valve clearance was obviously never checked but the cam must have been 1 tooth off (advanced). The cam went into his buddies car and worked great so the cam was not the problem.
His heads were milled about .035" instead of the usual .010-.015". When milling the heads this extra amount, I always machine the valve job .020" deeper so you end up with the same piston to valve clearance as the regular milled head but with more compression.
To put .040" deep grooves in each piston, there had to be NEGATIVE .010-.020 piston to valve clearance. I would think you would notice the engine being hard to spin over as you rotated the engine and adjusted the valves since every intake valve was hitting the piston. That should have made some hideous noises as it was running also.
A simple clay test to check PTV clearance would have saved alot of time and $$$ while also alerting that the cam is not installed properly.
Elliott sent the heads to me and I did him another set for free but re-using his valves, springs, retainers, locks, etc. I did throw in 4 new intake valves for him (free of charge) since 4 were bent so severly that they would not spin out on the valve grinder. He wanted the new set to be milled a lil less and so they were milled just enough to make them flat. The valve job was also machined in the typical spot so these heads would have gave him an extra .010" in piston to valve clearance over the previous heads but still not enough to clear if the cam was off far enough to leave .040 deep grooves in the piston.
Elliott ended up selling this set of heads to another member on one of the forums before installing them.
His old heads were cleaned up and sold to a customer for a discount with all new part. He is running a 236/240 .592/.592 112 LSA cam on a stock bottom end using Mr Gasket 5716 head gaskets with no PTV clearance problems. This cam was degreed and installed properly though.
I believe Elliotts new AI set up has the cam installed correctly and PTV was probably checked also. I am sure he is happy with the way the car runs when set up properly.
Lloyd
And For the record, LE ported the heads on my car. He did me right. I am EXTREMELY happy with results.
08-16-2009, 12:00 AM
#49
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If I remember correctly Elliott's heads were milled down more then they should have been. 90% of guys on here have probably never checked for PTV clearance nor degree the camshaft in. I didn't on my current set up and eveything flows together and runs amazing. This isn't the first time I have heard about guys get **** heads from LE. I think it's more of a quality control issue more then anything.
08-16-2009, 08:46 AM
#50
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how much milling is "more than they should have been"?
Elliotts heads were milled .035" and this is how much you need to remove to get the small area on other side of quench pad by the exhaust valve to become flush with the deck. If you see an LT1 head with this area flush with the deck, they have been milled .035" also. When milling heads this much, the valve job gets machined .020" deeper so there is the SAME PTV clearance as the usual head.
standard .015" milling - standard valve job depth.
.035" milling - valve job machined .020" deeper.
The PTV would be the same if I milled the heads .015 or .035 (with the valve job adjusted) but either way, the intake valves should never hit the pistons unless the cam was installed wrong.
Do you think theye were milled too much resulting in too much compression? that is not the case.
Do you think they were milled too much resulting in the PTV clearance problems?
I already explained that if the heads would have NOT been milled .035" and say they were not even milled at all (not even .010 or so to make them flat), than thevalves would still have been smacking the pistons the way the cam was installed. He had .040" deep grooves in the pistons from intake vaklves crachin into them. A 223 duration cam should not have piston/valve contaact problems on a head that was not milled if the cam was installed correct. This only leaves the cam installas the problem.
I agree the average 18-25 yr old kid probably doesn't check for PTV or degree the cams and never have a problem but if something goes wrong, they have no one to blame but themselves for the problems that might occur. Checking the PTV and degreeing the cam can be skipped and usually no ill effects are to be had BUT when the cam is installed wrong, a PTV check is the one chance to find the problem before you fire it up and destroy some parts.
The experienced guys will do these things and when you pay an individual or a shop to do the work, it should DEFINITELY be done. I am saying the cam obviously was in wrong position and if the PTV was checked, it would have allerted the engine builder that something is wrong.
Regardless of the cam being in correct, 8 degrees advanced or even 1-2 teeth off, if you check PTV clearance (a basic part of heads/cam install), you see there is a problem and do not fire up the engine, bend valves and hurt other engine parts.
Lloyd
Elliotts heads were milled .035" and this is how much you need to remove to get the small area on other side of quench pad by the exhaust valve to become flush with the deck. If you see an LT1 head with this area flush with the deck, they have been milled .035" also. When milling heads this much, the valve job gets machined .020" deeper so there is the SAME PTV clearance as the usual head.
standard .015" milling - standard valve job depth.
.035" milling - valve job machined .020" deeper.
The PTV would be the same if I milled the heads .015 or .035 (with the valve job adjusted) but either way, the intake valves should never hit the pistons unless the cam was installed wrong.
Do you think theye were milled too much resulting in too much compression? that is not the case.
Do you think they were milled too much resulting in the PTV clearance problems?
I already explained that if the heads would have NOT been milled .035" and say they were not even milled at all (not even .010 or so to make them flat), than thevalves would still have been smacking the pistons the way the cam was installed. He had .040" deep grooves in the pistons from intake vaklves crachin into them. A 223 duration cam should not have piston/valve contaact problems on a head that was not milled if the cam was installed correct. This only leaves the cam installas the problem.
I agree the average 18-25 yr old kid probably doesn't check for PTV or degree the cams and never have a problem but if something goes wrong, they have no one to blame but themselves for the problems that might occur. Checking the PTV and degreeing the cam can be skipped and usually no ill effects are to be had BUT when the cam is installed wrong, a PTV check is the one chance to find the problem before you fire it up and destroy some parts.
The experienced guys will do these things and when you pay an individual or a shop to do the work, it should DEFINITELY be done. I am saying the cam obviously was in wrong position and if the PTV was checked, it would have allerted the engine builder that something is wrong.
Regardless of the cam being in correct, 8 degrees advanced or even 1-2 teeth off, if you check PTV clearance (a basic part of heads/cam install), you see there is a problem and do not fire up the engine, bend valves and hurt other engine parts.
Lloyd
08-16-2009, 09:07 AM
#51
Lloyd dont let this stuff bother you, no one takes responsibility for their own screw ups anymore. It's always someone ELSES fault.
People buy PARTS from you, it is THEIR responsibility to install them correctly.
Guys if you dont have the knowledge or KNOW someone who does, dont install these parts you buy and EXPECT them to perform the way you think they will.
This AMAZES me. Its like buying a 10K engine and trying to tune it yourself with NO knowledge of how to do it, putting the wrong converter in, wrong gear, no suspension .....but yet the engine builder is blamed for the under performing engine.
Come on guys GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.
People buy PARTS from you, it is THEIR responsibility to install them correctly.
Guys if you dont have the knowledge or KNOW someone who does, dont install these parts you buy and EXPECT them to perform the way you think they will.
This AMAZES me. Its like buying a 10K engine and trying to tune it yourself with NO knowledge of how to do it, putting the wrong converter in, wrong gear, no suspension .....but yet the engine builder is blamed for the under performing engine.
Come on guys GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.
08-18-2009, 03:36 AM
#52
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Lloyd dont let this stuff bother you, no one takes responsibility for their own screw ups anymore. It's always someone ELSES fault.
People buy PARTS from you, it is THEIR responsibility to install them correctly.
Guys if you dont have the knowledge or KNOW someone who does, dont install these parts you buy and EXPECT them to perform the way you think they will.
This AMAZES me. Its like buying a 10K engine and trying to tune it yourself with NO knowledge of how to do it, putting the wrong converter in, wrong gear, no suspension .....but yet the engine builder is blamed for the under performing engine.
Come on guys GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.
People buy PARTS from you, it is THEIR responsibility to install them correctly.
Guys if you dont have the knowledge or KNOW someone who does, dont install these parts you buy and EXPECT them to perform the way you think they will.
This AMAZES me. Its like buying a 10K engine and trying to tune it yourself with NO knowledge of how to do it, putting the wrong converter in, wrong gear, no suspension .....but yet the engine builder is blamed for the under performing engine.
Come on guys GEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.
FASTFATBOY: Pretty much spot on.
Must be rough out in the racing world what with all these hand porters with poor quality and such. Who even does hand porting anymore jeez
-Dustin-
08-18-2009, 01:26 PM
#55
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So it can never be a shop's fault? Ever? Really? The irony in your statement. Funny regarding the track record here compared to other shops... I'm just glad LE didn't answer the phone when I was inquiring about getting my heads done.
08-18-2009, 05:53 PM
#56
Hell the last time I assembled mine a piston was on a rod backwards, I swapped it around and put it in. Most would have had their head up their ***, installed it, cranked it and blamed the machine shop. THIS is what I mean.
08-18-2009, 07:16 PM
#58
All I have to say in this thread is Im 100% happy with my LE ported Heads intake and custom cam. Top Notch products and service.
People can blame LE for some poor running cars, that have 0 proof it was his wrong doing, but they fail to point out the Million other poor performing cars on this site from their favorite companies. Then its the installers fault because their favorite company could never be at fault.
Lots of great companies to choose from. Just pick the one you feel most comfortable with. If the car is put together correctly you wont be dissappointed by any of the well known companies 99.999999% of the time.
People can blame LE for some poor running cars, that have 0 proof it was his wrong doing, but they fail to point out the Million other poor performing cars on this site from their favorite companies. Then its the installers fault because their favorite company could never be at fault.
Lots of great companies to choose from. Just pick the one you feel most comfortable with. If the car is put together correctly you wont be dissappointed by any of the well known companies 99.999999% of the time.
