58mm TB worth it for the money?
04-28-2010, 08:18 AM
#1
58mm TB worth it for the money? Just want to know if spending the money on a nice Holley or BBK is going to make a huge difference vs a stock one. Im sure there is a gain for sure but just want to know if there all cracked up to what there supposed to be or should i spend the cash else where like an underdrive pulley and ewp for the roughly same price. Im going to be doing h/c soon and looking at some used ones in the classifieds.
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by 95mysticta; 04-28-2010 at 08:20 AM. Reason: added to it
04-28-2010, 08:35 AM
#2
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huge difference? no, but professional products makes a nice TB for less than both of those brands. I'd do a ls1 lid swap or a CAI if you don't feel like doin the lid swap and a EWP, u/d pulleys don't do a whole lot either.
04-28-2010, 08:52 AM
#3
Yeh i figured as much it wouldnt make much of a difference for the money. Most say an EWP gives you about 10rwhp and an underdrive pulley is about 5-10rwhp. So that being said is dont think a 58mm TB is going to give me 15-20rwhp over a stock one and just noting for the cost to power theres more out there for cheaper is all im saying. Im not doubting the bigger tb is a good upgrade just the guys on a budget built trying to spend the money where it counts.
Thanks!
Thanks!
04-28-2010, 09:19 AM
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I went with a 58mm and cai and felt a big difference but really a 58mm is not needed. stock intakes only have 52mm bore so no more then that will get through no matter how big your tb is.
04-28-2010, 09:56 AM
#6
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Holley makes a nice TB that will give some very healthy gain...but that only because it basically has a built in nitrous distribution system.
I noticed better throttle response with the 58mm compared to stock but there are plenty of folks running quite fast and making good power with the stock unit.
So, what I'm trying to say is that you don't need a 58mm TB to make good power. Save your money
04-28-2010, 10:06 AM
#7
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Any 52mm or the Arizona Speed and Marine 54mm. Our intakes are really 54mm...
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04-28-2010, 01:07 PM
#10
A throttle body is almost always a waste. I forget the actual calculations but people forget to realize how much power is needed to see any gains. A throttle body controls your engine speed. A small throttle body will give you great response. A BIGGER throttle body sometimes fools people by allowing more air in at a lower throttle opening. So when you are actually 20% throttle you are getting 60% air volume. Thats why most people 'THINK' they are seeing gains. having a 500mm throttle body on a stock engine would pretty much give you an on/off switch.
The Holley is a nice TB but I don't like it because at WOT the throttle blades will move past 'flat' and actually close a little on the other side.
The Holley is a nice TB but I don't like it because at WOT the throttle blades will move past 'flat' and actually close a little on the other side.
04-28-2010, 01:46 PM
#11
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i have seen this debated many times by people that actually know what they are talking about - by that i mean actually sitting down and crunching the airflow dynamics numbers to find that a bolt on car will benefit from a 52 and pick up around 10hp, and a head cam car will be borderline running out of air on a 52.
there is even a thread that states a dyno proven gain of 10hp gong from a 52 to a 58
http://bit.ly/c09yon
given what people normally spend for a 10hp gain i would say it is worth it, and like stated before professional products makes a nice piece that is very affordable, i have one and like it alot
there is even a thread that states a dyno proven gain of 10hp gong from a 52 to a 58
http://bit.ly/c09yon
given what people normally spend for a 10hp gain i would say it is worth it, and like stated before professional products makes a nice piece that is very affordable, i have one and like it alot
04-28-2010, 06:27 PM
#12
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I was looking into the Professional Products piece. You guys recommend it? Hell on summits website the polished version is $219 for a 58mm. Thats badass!!
04-28-2010, 07:03 PM
#13
95..
with your current set up a larger TB won't give you much (5hp?) if any. You would also need to have your PCM adjusted (line pressure) or tranny problems will happpen.
when you get heads, cam, larger injectors, headers/exhaust THEN add the larger TB and have your tune (PCM) set up for those mods togeather.
with your current set up a larger TB won't give you much (5hp?) if any. You would also need to have your PCM adjusted (line pressure) or tranny problems will happpen.
when you get heads, cam, larger injectors, headers/exhaust THEN add the larger TB and have your tune (PCM) set up for those mods togeather.
04-28-2010, 08:06 PM
#14
i have seen this debated many times by people that actually know what they are talking about - by that i mean actually sitting down and crunching the airflow dynamics numbers to find that a bolt on car will benefit from a 52 and pick up around 10hp, and a head cam car will be borderline running out of air on a 52.
04-28-2010, 08:18 PM
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but again you are totally right, i can not prove that with real world proof
04-28-2010, 08:30 PM
#16
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this is a good thread to read up on with this subject
http://goo.gl/MEjg
this is not my math, and to be honest it confuses the hell out of me, but what it came down to was it worth 350 or more to gain 5 to 10 hp - the difference now is you can pick up one for 200. it might still not be worth it, but in the case of the op he already has just about every other bolt on and even if he only picks up 5 hp now he will no doubt need it when he goes to the next step
this is originally posted by injuneer at cz28
http://goo.gl/MEjg
this is not my math, and to be honest it confuses the hell out of me, but what it came down to was it worth 350 or more to gain 5 to 10 hp - the difference now is you can pick up one for 200. it might still not be worth it, but in the case of the op he already has just about every other bolt on and even if he only picks up 5 hp now he will no doubt need it when he goes to the next step
this is originally posted by injuneer at cz28
Because at 753 CFM (and assuming the measurement of 783 CFM @ 28" H2O is valid) the 48mm TB will be causing a pressure loss of (approx) 25.9"H2O. Pressure lost in the intake track reduces the density of air in the cylinders, reducing HP proportionally.
Assuming simplified calculations (and basing it on the quoted numbers for the 48mm TB), for 753 CFM, pressure loss would be:
48mm = 25.9"H2O
52mm = 22.1"H2O
58mm = 17.7"H2O
The simplified basis for this calculation is that pressure loss is roughly proportional to the square of the veloicty.
If you consider the fact that standard atmospheric pressure is about 407"H2O, you can see that the pressure loss in each TB size is reducing your HP by:
48mm = 6.4%
52mm = 5.4%
58mm = 4.4%
Not sure what your point is. I told you the pressure drop on a 48mm TB is costing you 6.4% density loss = HP loss:
25.9 / 407 = 0.0636 = 6.4% loss
Then I told you the 52mm TB would cost you a 5.4% density loss = HP loss:
22.1 / 407 = 0.543 = 5.4% loss
6.4% - 5.4% = "about 1%"
Which is what you just restated.
What is your point?
All this ASSumes that other variables are held constant. Raising the issue that the temperature might change and affect density it irrelevant and an obfuscation. Why state the obvious? That's like saying you shouldn't upgrade your cam because any gains may be offset by a slippery track......
At 500 flwyheel HP, you could pick up roughly 2%, or about 10HP by running a 58mm TB instead of a 48mm TB. You have to decide based on your required "rate of return" whether that 10HP is worth investing $350 for a TB and a bit extra for porting the intake to 58mm.
You asked a question, and I gave you a technically correct and accurate response. What problem do you have with that response?
Assuming simplified calculations (and basing it on the quoted numbers for the 48mm TB), for 753 CFM, pressure loss would be:
48mm = 25.9"H2O
52mm = 22.1"H2O
58mm = 17.7"H2O
The simplified basis for this calculation is that pressure loss is roughly proportional to the square of the veloicty.
If you consider the fact that standard atmospheric pressure is about 407"H2O, you can see that the pressure loss in each TB size is reducing your HP by:
48mm = 6.4%
52mm = 5.4%
58mm = 4.4%
Not sure what your point is. I told you the pressure drop on a 48mm TB is costing you 6.4% density loss = HP loss:
25.9 / 407 = 0.0636 = 6.4% loss
Then I told you the 52mm TB would cost you a 5.4% density loss = HP loss:
22.1 / 407 = 0.543 = 5.4% loss
6.4% - 5.4% = "about 1%"
Which is what you just restated.
What is your point?
All this ASSumes that other variables are held constant. Raising the issue that the temperature might change and affect density it irrelevant and an obfuscation. Why state the obvious? That's like saying you shouldn't upgrade your cam because any gains may be offset by a slippery track......
At 500 flwyheel HP, you could pick up roughly 2%, or about 10HP by running a 58mm TB instead of a 48mm TB. You have to decide based on your required "rate of return" whether that 10HP is worth investing $350 for a TB and a bit extra for porting the intake to 58mm.
You asked a question, and I gave you a technically correct and accurate response. What problem do you have with that response?
04-28-2010, 09:02 PM
#18
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, I guess A.S.M. was just trying to sell me a throttle body then. I guess thats why I went with the BBK 52mm. Thanks for the proof.
04-28-2010, 09:17 PM
#19
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To the op, just buy an air foil and put it on your stock throttle body. It should help you out power wise and wallet wise. They can range from $25-$75 dollars...
04-28-2010, 09:36 PM
#20
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If your around 400rwhp or running mid 11's i would get one. Otherwise i would put your money elsewhere.
The only reason why i have a 52mm is because i found it for 65 bux in the FS section, i then dumped mine for 35, so it cost me $30. If you find something like i did do it, otherwise do other stuff that will have more of an impact.
The only reason why i have a 52mm is because i found it for 65 bux in the FS section, i then dumped mine for 35, so it cost me $30. If you find something like i did do it, otherwise do other stuff that will have more of an impact.