Valvespring ? with Pics
10-11-2010, 05:50 PM
#61
Decent springs get a bad name because people misuse them. Bauer was specing insufficient springs on a lot of his cams.
Comp screws up LT1 recommendations because their rpm ranges are wrong.
If I were still running my old 190cc setup I would not hesitate to put 918s on it again. The 226 cam I had was mild enough that it was a good match. The 224 cam Bauer/LE was specing with the 918s was actually MUCH more aggressive once you understand duration at .050" vs .200". It was square and that is why it broke so many parts.
Once Comp had a bad batch of spring that became the default cause and nobody would admit it was just incompatible parts.
Comp screws up LT1 recommendations because their rpm ranges are wrong.
If I were still running my old 190cc setup I would not hesitate to put 918s on it again. The 226 cam I had was mild enough that it was a good match. The 224 cam Bauer/LE was specing with the 918s was actually MUCH more aggressive once you understand duration at .050" vs .200". It was square and that is why it broke so many parts.
Once Comp had a bad batch of spring that became the default cause and nobody would admit it was just incompatible parts.
10-11-2010, 06:09 PM
#62
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
We bought the car already modded, so I'm not sure what the installed height is. The owner gave us a bunch of spec sheets that I can check over but there are shims under the locators though that I can see (not saying that they are installed at the correct height though). The car also has 1.6 rockers on it, again I'm not sure if the cam lifts are rated for 1.5s or 1.6s. Even so, the lift on my dad's cam is still under what I'm running and I thought 918s could handle that kind of lift?
The first thing that came to my mind was the defective batch of 918s a while ago. Since I don't know when these springs were made, we have no way of knowing if they are bad or not. We're going to be replacing all of them with Patriots, checking install height and running a leakdown on that cylinder.
Thanks everyone for the advice so far.
The first thing that came to my mind was the defective batch of 918s a while ago. Since I don't know when these springs were made, we have no way of knowing if they are bad or not. We're going to be replacing all of them with Patriots, checking install height and running a leakdown on that cylinder.
Thanks everyone for the advice so far.
10-11-2010, 06:13 PM
#63
Pac isn't made in America anymore last I heard. PSI is the only one left. And most people, me included, are just running a cheap spring which is bound to get a few bad ones put out every now and then.
I still think its funny that a lot of the people on the kill comp bandwagon are running springs made by the same company that makes comp's springs.
I still think its funny that a lot of the people on the kill comp bandwagon are running springs made by the same company that makes comp's springs.
I work for GE Appliances. PAC makes the springs that we install in dishwasher doors. The springs counter act the weight of door so it doesnt flop open. The boxes that the springs come in say "Made in Mexico". These are different srpings but are made by PAC and are made in Mexico. When I built my LT4 I had the Comps in it about the time I started to see all the breakage threads. I changed out to the PAC 1518's. Back then I didnt know where the PAC's were made. I have since sold the car and it now has AFR heads on it and as far as I know the PAC's never broke.
10-11-2010, 06:42 PM
#64
TECH Regular
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of years ago, when Comp's Beehives were being reported breaking and virtually all the Forums were kicking it around, someone began a Batch # list and IT DID turn out that there were a LOT of different Batch #s involved in breakage. So the list put to rest the claim that breakages were limited to only one or two bad batches.
In order to get to the very bottom of this, wouldn't we have to start all the way back at square 1? All the way back to the steel mill that produced the chemical composition of the metal that ultimately turned into the springs. How else would we know if PACs and Comps (or any other springs) aren't being turned into wire by the same foundry.
Then we'd need to know what differences there are in the chemical composition of the wire, then, on and on. I mean how can we REALLY know without tracking the spring back to its beginning.
Does PAC actually pour their spring alloy? I know, from reading Comp's info, Comp doesn't pour theirs. Once the alloy is turned into wire is a certain amount shipped off to PAC finishers and another amount shipped off to Comp's finishers (for lack of a better name)? Same wire, different shipment destinations. Once it gets there what happens to it?
Or, are they produced by different mills, but using the same formula?
What about all the other companies that sell valve springs and assign a really cute and catchy name to them; where's their wire coming from? Re-packaged and re-named springs?
Has PAC released information about how their springs come into being? How they come up with the chemical composition, their testing, what equipment they use, etc. I LOVE to read so if anyone knows, point me in that direction.
We've all read about "Out Sourcing": One member says PACs are made here while another member says they're not. Unless we have more details we're just be guessing. Just too many unknowns right now.
So if someone says they're never going to buy CompCams valve springs again but, instead is going to buy ABC springs, how does he know he's not going to buy the same springs? 2nds; factory rejects - how do we REALLY know?
Oh, and what about Comp's re-vitalized BeeHives, the 26xxx family? Over 20 different versions by my count, all BeeHives. I haven't read about failures of those. Has Comp solved it's Beehive breakage problem?
Back when I was in valve spring buying mode there were just too many unknowns. So I opted to go with springs that have a proven track record. All doubles sitting in locators.
Jake
In order to get to the very bottom of this, wouldn't we have to start all the way back at square 1? All the way back to the steel mill that produced the chemical composition of the metal that ultimately turned into the springs. How else would we know if PACs and Comps (or any other springs) aren't being turned into wire by the same foundry.
Then we'd need to know what differences there are in the chemical composition of the wire, then, on and on. I mean how can we REALLY know without tracking the spring back to its beginning.
Does PAC actually pour their spring alloy? I know, from reading Comp's info, Comp doesn't pour theirs. Once the alloy is turned into wire is a certain amount shipped off to PAC finishers and another amount shipped off to Comp's finishers (for lack of a better name)? Same wire, different shipment destinations. Once it gets there what happens to it?
Or, are they produced by different mills, but using the same formula?
What about all the other companies that sell valve springs and assign a really cute and catchy name to them; where's their wire coming from? Re-packaged and re-named springs?
Has PAC released information about how their springs come into being? How they come up with the chemical composition, their testing, what equipment they use, etc. I LOVE to read so if anyone knows, point me in that direction.
We've all read about "Out Sourcing": One member says PACs are made here while another member says they're not. Unless we have more details we're just be guessing. Just too many unknowns right now.
So if someone says they're never going to buy CompCams valve springs again but, instead is going to buy ABC springs, how does he know he's not going to buy the same springs? 2nds; factory rejects - how do we REALLY know?
Oh, and what about Comp's re-vitalized BeeHives, the 26xxx family? Over 20 different versions by my count, all BeeHives. I haven't read about failures of those. Has Comp solved it's Beehive breakage problem?
Back when I was in valve spring buying mode there were just too many unknowns. So I opted to go with springs that have a proven track record. All doubles sitting in locators.
Jake
10-11-2010, 07:44 PM
#67
TECH Regular
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10-11-2010, 07:58 PM
#68
TECH Resident
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: el paso, tx
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you know i love to hate threads like this,, just left the track Saturday and now i'm having valve springs problems ( yes they are 918's but also 5 years old and i think they served there propose) so now the question is since i have been reading this discussion what do i go with Patriot or PAC's thats the million dollar question lol.... cam is xfi 280
10-11-2010, 08:11 PM
#69
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
you know i love to hate threads like this,, just left the track Saturday and now i'm having valve springs problems ( yes they are 918's but also 5 years old and i think they served there propose) so now the question is since i have been reading this discussion what do i go with Patriot or PAC's thats the million dollar question lol.... cam is xfi 280
10-11-2010, 08:33 PM
#70
TECH Resident
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: el paso, tx
Posts: 778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As we speak im getting a set right now and just got the "Tim's tool" as well... hope they are easy to change in the car.. At first it sounded like the winged tray was hitting the crank but then i took off the driver side valve cover and seen the rocker was not straight on the spring and keep looking and the spring was sagging right under the retainer.. something like the pic you posted...really cant tell what happened...
10-11-2010, 10:54 PM
#71
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
As we speak im getting a set right now and just got the "Tim's tool" as well... hope they are easy to change in the car.. At first it sounded like the winged tray was hitting the crank but then i took off the driver side valve cover and seen the rocker was not straight on the spring and keep looking and the spring was sagging right under the retainer.. something like the pic you posted...really cant tell what happened...
10-11-2010, 11:55 PM
#72
I'm running patriot golds now, just got my crane 10308 kit off. wish me luck, 600 lift here we go...
10-12-2010, 12:18 AM
#73
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (96)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 0
Received 81 Likes
on
72 Posts
I have installed half a dozen spring SETS, some doubles, with one single Tim's tool. You MUST lube the stud, washers (i used 2) and nut with EACH spring compression. And choose a lubricant with better properties then vasoline geez. Motor oil worked great for me.
10-12-2010, 07:07 PM
#75
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
Nope, I religiously lubed everything with motor oil. I think its just in the design, all of the compressing force of the spring is put on the nut and washers. I had no problem taking the stock springs off with it, but when I compressed the Patriots is when the tool started acting up.
10-13-2010, 12:16 AM
#78
10-20-2010, 09:14 AM
#79
Pac isn't made in America anymore last I heard. PSI is the only one left. And most people, me included, are just running a cheap spring which is bound to get a few bad ones put out every now and then.
I still think its funny that a lot of the people on the kill comp bandwagon are running springs made by the same company that makes comp's springs.
I still think its funny that a lot of the people on the kill comp bandwagon are running springs made by the same company that makes comp's springs.