SPRAYED Z

iTrader: (4)

I have a set of ported AFRs and they are not installed yet but im looking for to making some massive power.

joelster

I've got a set of AFR 227 race ported sitting here patiently waiting. They are a serious piece. I will most likely be getting a set of comp ported 195's this off-season to put me well into the 10's on the stock short block. I would challenge any comparable cylinder head (volume wise) to stack up to a comp ported set of AFR's. Go to gmhightech's website and search for the 195cc shootout that they did. AFR sent them the "street" version of their 195cc head and it literally stomped the field. No other company has taken the time to produce a cylinder head that can match an AFR head 23 degree style. I'm not talking about what some porting shop can do, i'm talking right from the manufacturer. Dart, Edelbrock, TFS (I run them), GM LT4, sorry guys, not even in the same league. 8mm LS1 style valves, thick decks, 100% cnc'd out of the box, superior port shape, superior flow, etc, etc......

AI makes excellent stuff and they have some great packages available that include the entire valvetrain and also intake porting to match. I will give them props for sticking with the LT1 platform and producing results as several of the posters in this thread and shown. I have no idea why they chose the TFS 195 head to base their 215cc package on. I'm going to guess that it's a price issue. They probably get a good deal on bare castings from TFS and the TFS head has enough material in the right areas for them to work their magic on. It is probably the best available canvas for them to run their best CNC program on. Out of the box it is a so-so head. I know, I run it currently.

As for pricing, lol, don't believe everything you read on the internet. AFR has very strict pricing policies for their dealers. It is best to email or call a sponsor on here and see what they can work out for you. You will be surprised, I certainly was.

Here's the flow sheets for each head:






Pretty close on the intake side, but the exhaust isn't close at all.

As far as people saying that noone really runs AFR stuff, lol, you've got to be kidding me. Ever hear of Tony Shepard? How about Rick Intrau? Chris Sikora? Joe Overton? Ben Moore? These guys are all pioneers with their LT1 platforms and have set records and won shootouts.

We can debate this until we are blue in the face, but i'm sure everyone will agree on this one thing. If you run an AFR 210 comp head, with all the supporting hardware you will have yourself one BEAST of a car. Same thing for an AI TFS 215 setup. One of the guys in this thread is knocking on 9's in his street car.

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

Dont let those numbers fool you though..........first off flow numbers dont mean everything.......and second look at the test parameters......

AFR tested their LTx head on a 4.125" bore.........other than the extremely high dollar virtually un-locatable gm race lt block where are you going to find a 4.125" bore LT motor???? Exactly ........AI tested their head on a 4.030" bore which is what about 98% of the builds out there are.......

Next....AFR tested their head with a 1 7/8" Pipe extension on the exhaust........AI used none......bang theres your exhaust difference.......and in the end if you used comparable tests AI made almost the same flow #'s with less port volume and less valve diameter.......port efficency and velocity anyone???. I'm comparing the 227 eliminator heads here......

As for the AFR 210's the same applies however the bore 4.060 vs. 4.030 test diameter is much closer but that little bit of flow can be affected here.

I'm not knocking the AFR heads in any way at all please dont take it like that the AFR's are a great offering however when we are comparing apples to apples we need to use the same test parameters to be able to compare them correctly

Tireburnin

iTrader: (42)

You've got to keep things apples to apples. Nice post.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Those are the 210 AFR heads posted that compare to the 215s, not the 227s.

Even considering the small .030 differnce in bore, they are performing the same as the larger ported AI TFS 215s out of the box.

The 227s curb stomp them if you are willing to use the right parts. They shouldn't even be compared at all to AI's TFS 215s-they are in a whole other ball game.

speed_demon24

iTrader: (6)

Racing flow benches is fun.

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

lol agreed

joelster

I would love to see an apples to apples back-to-back dyno test between the AFR 210 COMP vs the AI TFS 215. I'd put money on the AFR head coming out on top. Maybe GMHTP would do this shootout for us?

AFR 210 COMP
AI TFS 215
LE3
Dart 200cc (would get stomped but the price is nice)
any other reputable head porter with a sub $2500 head package

flyinZ

iTrader: (15)

Quik95lt1, clean out your PM's

robsquikz28

iTrader: (246)

[QUOTE=joelster;14052379]I would love to see an apples to apples back-to-back dyno test between the AFR 210 COMP vs the AI TFS 215. I'd put money on the AFR head coming out on top. Maybe GMHTP would do this shootout for us?

For sure

BADHAWK51

iTrader: (1)

No one is even talking about these heads ?


Brodix Head Hunter series 23* heads flows 325@700 intake and 236@700 exhaust. I know flow isn't everything but Brodix usually makes a great product.






I know someone is going to ask yes Brodix will convert for a small fee.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Even dyno testing heads back to back wont make everyone happy...last cylinder head shootout I read among aftermarket heads(No porter packages like AI or LE were included), AFR swept the field - but people still commented that the lead was due to liking the engines timing more then the others and wanted dyno tuning done for every single head .

Wicked94Z

iTrader: (26)

There's NO point of running larger than a 2.08 valve in a 4" bore... you can't get enough cubes to justify the corresponding 240+cc runner, unless you're spinning 8500+ rpm.

duh

iTrader: (16)

Jeff, I was looking at the Track 1's they offer...almost same #'s......their 233 CNC head is on par with AFR's 227 CNC head according to the numbers, but it doesn't give the test parameters that AFR does....I think those would be just as killer as the AFR's and a little bit cheaper IIRC...


boy, do I need to win the lottery.....lol

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

heheheeheee and your point???

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

whoops sorry doing it now lol

Advanced Induction

iTrader: (2)

Various AllPro, Dart, AFR, etc.

Precisely.

The LT block's 4" bore is not an issue until we get into #'s far beyond what most enthusiasts would ever want to mess with.

No offense, but that isn't even close to being accurate. Flow #'s are for marketing - they are neither comparable, nor are they an accurate indicator of potential performance. Flow #'s are not comparable from one test to the next because of differences in test equipment, fixturing, methodology etc., and they are not a reliable indicator of potential performance because there are so many bad ways to get high flow #'s. That doesn't even begin to take into account the potential inherent in various style ports & chambers. There are many outdated designs still sold and run, which is precisely why our customers tend to outpower and out run most aftermarket heads with our CNC'd GM LT's.

In our experience there is no "best" 23deg casting, because they all have inherent pros and cons. Everything is a compromise. We chose the TFS casting for that size head because we felt it was the best compromise at the moment, not because of pricing. Dart, AFR, TFS, etc. bare castings are similarly priced.

That would certainly span the classes of cylinder head from entry level to high end, but is highly unlikely. Magazines are not reliable sources of technical info, they are advertisements. Not to disparage the mags, that is their business model, but I was under the impression that was common knowledge.

Worth quoting. Guys are constantly planning 500hp builds around 800hp parts, and wonder why they're getting outrun by cars with "lesser parts" or heads that "don't flow enough." Buying heads based on claimed flow #'s is like buying a performance car based on its color.

In any event, the 215cc CNC'd TFS head we produce will easily make 500rwhp with a decent shortblock/exh and a drivable SR setup. We've proven on multiple occasions that 600-700hp/5XXrwhp is doable (even w/ our 200cc GM head) before we have drivability issues or are required to turn 8k to use it. As noted previously, most don't invest in the shortblock, exhaust, inlet, PCM, drive train, etc. to run our 200-215cc heads to their potential. That is precisely why we recommmend our 200cc GM LT1 so often - guys can easily make the 400rwhp they want on a stock shortblock, and 450-500rwhp down the road when they move to a 355/383 without having to buy another head. Still, if there are a few guys out there who'd like an LT top-end with the potential to make 700-800hp NA, we're happy to provide it.

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

you know im in phil lol......got the shortblock and the pcm to do it and i think i got one other guy for you too who would be in on it.......

Puck

iTrader: (17)

None taken, but I am well aware of the inherant differences among flow benches. If you have followed my posts, you will also notice that I'm the first to mention that flow numbers - just like dyno results - are not only incomparable, but fairly useless in the grand scheme of things.

You guys have an awesome product both in your 200cc GM castings and the TFS 215s, which I often suggest to others(I even suggested them to the OP in this very thread), but there are still some of us - no matter how small of a minority - that are looking for more...and have the shortblock, computer, and supporting mods to actually make it all work.

SPRAYED Z

iTrader: (4)

[QUOTE=Advanced Induction;14054397]Various AllPro, Dart, AFR, etc.


so what about my setup?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/lt1-lt4-m...s-388-lt1.html