E85 & n2o
03-29-2012, 08:25 AM
#1
E85 & n2o I've searched on this and seems like something pretty much unheard of or at least not many have posted about online.
My Camaro is going E85 and I have a few nitrous related questions, but first I will give out the details on the car.
95 Z28
Factory shortblock w/ 103k miles on it I believe.
Stock intake
Stock cylinder heads
Stock TB (for now)
cc305 114lsa cam
K&N CAI
Trickflow Elbow
Pacesetter Longtubes into ORY
1.6 RR's
Electric Water Pump
255 Walbro Pump
I'll be upgrading to 30 lbs. injectors.
"Built" 4l60e w/ 3400 RevMax converter.
External trans cooler
10 bolt rear
3.73 gears
T/A girdle
Tires are M/T 26x10.5x16 on stock wheels
NX Wet Kit
Single Nozzle
Iceman Solenoids
Wanting to run around a 175 shot on this. I currently have .062 and .067 jets for the nitrous side to toy with.
What fuel jets are recommended for this? I will be getting my fuel source off the fuel rail using standard fuel pressure (someone enlighten me, I've forgotten).
What brand of spark plugs and heat range do you recommend on the shot? I've asked a tuner and he suggest the tr6 on motor, tr7 for up to 150, and tr8 for anything beyond.
Just hoping someone else has done this and maybe has some advice. I realize when running E85 you must run a larger fuel jet. And of course the car will be getting tuned on the dyno for this.
My Camaro is going E85 and I have a few nitrous related questions, but first I will give out the details on the car.
95 Z28
Factory shortblock w/ 103k miles on it I believe.
Stock intake
Stock cylinder heads
Stock TB (for now)
cc305 114lsa cam
K&N CAI
Trickflow Elbow
Pacesetter Longtubes into ORY
1.6 RR's
Electric Water Pump
255 Walbro Pump
I'll be upgrading to 30 lbs. injectors.
"Built" 4l60e w/ 3400 RevMax converter.
External trans cooler
10 bolt rear
3.73 gears
T/A girdle
Tires are M/T 26x10.5x16 on stock wheels
NX Wet Kit
Single Nozzle
Iceman Solenoids
Wanting to run around a 175 shot on this. I currently have .062 and .067 jets for the nitrous side to toy with.
What fuel jets are recommended for this? I will be getting my fuel source off the fuel rail using standard fuel pressure (someone enlighten me, I've forgotten).
What brand of spark plugs and heat range do you recommend on the shot? I've asked a tuner and he suggest the tr6 on motor, tr7 for up to 150, and tr8 for anything beyond.
Just hoping someone else has done this and maybe has some advice. I realize when running E85 you must run a larger fuel jet. And of course the car will be getting tuned on the dyno for this.
03-29-2012, 08:42 AM
#2
Let me apologize for not answering your question but, why corn? I'd do a standalone fuel system for the nitrous and fill that cell up with race gas on a combo like yours.
03-29-2012, 08:47 AM
#3
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on a stock shortblock??? why? you need to get that compression up to around 13:1 or so for utilizing the corn fuel...
sure you could use the e85 with nitrous... it has been done on many setups. well maybe not 4th gens but MANY nitrous setups on other vehicles.
sure you could use the e85 with nitrous... it has been done on many setups. well maybe not 4th gens but MANY nitrous setups on other vehicles.
03-29-2012, 08:54 AM
#4
One of the cheapest forms of race fuel around available in my area at the pump, burns cleaner, cooler, allows more ignition timing advance on the bottle.... I'm sort of lost on why you wouldn't want to run it. That's like saying why run on 93 octane when you can buy 87.
I'd rather not add an entire standalone system if it isn't necessary which it obviously isn't.
03-29-2012, 09:10 AM
#5
You said it burns cooler. Do you understand the basic concept of the internal combustion engine?
You need a lot more volume of alcohol to get the same energy as gas, but you can burn more because it carries some oxygen with it.
IMO trying to use E85 with 30lbs injectors and tapping the fuel rail for 175hp worth of fuel is just begging for problems. IF and I do mean IF there is sufficient volume you are still going to lose pressure on nitrous activation for a moment making it very hard to run a fuel pressure safety switch.
People have a hardon for more timing BUT in a perfect world spark would happen right at TDC, firing before that is trying to push the crank back down while it is still coming up and wastes energy but it is what we have to do because the flame takes time to travel.
Octane does NOT make power, it simply resists preignition, your setup is so mild you do not need a lot of octane.
I understand wanting a high octane suppliment on the jug for added safety but that is why 05hd suggested a standalone system, you could fill that with E85 if you want.
If the tranny was local I would worry too as few shops can assemble this tranny well and no way in hell would I spray that converter, then again you have such a weak mistake of a cam maybe NA power is low enough. You do know that spreading the LSA for nitrous does not apply till you get into much larger shots?
You need a lot more volume of alcohol to get the same energy as gas, but you can burn more because it carries some oxygen with it.
IMO trying to use E85 with 30lbs injectors and tapping the fuel rail for 175hp worth of fuel is just begging for problems. IF and I do mean IF there is sufficient volume you are still going to lose pressure on nitrous activation for a moment making it very hard to run a fuel pressure safety switch.
People have a hardon for more timing BUT in a perfect world spark would happen right at TDC, firing before that is trying to push the crank back down while it is still coming up and wastes energy but it is what we have to do because the flame takes time to travel.
Octane does NOT make power, it simply resists preignition, your setup is so mild you do not need a lot of octane.
I understand wanting a high octane suppliment on the jug for added safety but that is why 05hd suggested a standalone system, you could fill that with E85 if you want.
If the tranny was local I would worry too as few shops can assemble this tranny well and no way in hell would I spray that converter, then again you have such a weak mistake of a cam maybe NA power is low enough. You do know that spreading the LSA for nitrous does not apply till you get into much larger shots?
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03-29-2012, 11:18 AM
#8
You said it burns cooler. Do you understand the basic concept of the internal combustion engine?
You need a lot more volume of alcohol to get the same energy as gas, but you can burn more because it carries some oxygen with it.
IMO trying to use E85 with 30lbs injectors and tapping the fuel rail for 175hp worth of fuel is just begging for problems. IF and I do mean IF there is sufficient volume you are still going to lose pressure on nitrous activation for a moment making it very hard to run a fuel pressure safety switch.
People have a hardon for more timing BUT in a perfect world spark would happen right at TDC, firing before that is trying to push the crank back down while it is still coming up and wastes energy but it is what we have to do because the flame takes time to travel.
Octane does NOT make power, it simply resists preignition, your setup is so mild you do not need a lot of octane.
I understand wanting a high octane suppliment on the jug for added safety but that is why 05hd suggested a standalone system, you could fill that with E85 if you want.
If the tranny was local I would worry too as few shops can assemble this tranny well and no way in hell would I spray that converter, then again you have such a weak mistake of a cam maybe NA power is low enough. You do know that spreading the LSA for nitrous does not apply till you get into much larger shots?
You need a lot more volume of alcohol to get the same energy as gas, but you can burn more because it carries some oxygen with it.
IMO trying to use E85 with 30lbs injectors and tapping the fuel rail for 175hp worth of fuel is just begging for problems. IF and I do mean IF there is sufficient volume you are still going to lose pressure on nitrous activation for a moment making it very hard to run a fuel pressure safety switch.
People have a hardon for more timing BUT in a perfect world spark would happen right at TDC, firing before that is trying to push the crank back down while it is still coming up and wastes energy but it is what we have to do because the flame takes time to travel.
Octane does NOT make power, it simply resists preignition, your setup is so mild you do not need a lot of octane.
I understand wanting a high octane suppliment on the jug for added safety but that is why 05hd suggested a standalone system, you could fill that with E85 if you want.
If the tranny was local I would worry too as few shops can assemble this tranny well and no way in hell would I spray that converter, then again you have such a weak mistake of a cam maybe NA power is low enough. You do know that spreading the LSA for nitrous does not apply till you get into much larger shots?
As for the pressure drop from running on the rail, I had not taken that into account. Thank you for the warning.
Yes I understand what you are saying about ignition timing, but I'm working with what I have and trying to make the best of it. This car already had the bolt ons and cam.
Transmission was built by LTX guy which was making more power than I and he never had a problem with his. I'd safely estimate he was in the 520-530 hp range at the flywheel.
The converter was spec'd and built for nitrous so I'm going to try my luck and learn the hard way with it.
Yes I understand the cam is very small and outdated, but it came in the car. No plans on changing it until I'm ready to do heads and cam.
Thank you.
03-29-2012, 11:41 AM
#11
There was an Impala guy who ran 2 stages for a total well over that on a stock shortblock and got into the 10s, of course these days we have much better heads and cam options and these days there is a stock shortblock NA Impala.
A friend ran 175 for quite some time street racing and it only blewup when he got greedy and jetted it for 250, number one self destructed.
A friend ran 175 for quite some time street racing and it only blewup when he got greedy and jetted it for 250, number one self destructed.
03-29-2012, 11:54 AM
#12
IMO, you should make this easy on yourself and your wallet by running that car on premium pump gas.
The stand alone up-front fuel system with race gas would be more than enough insurance. If your tune is good, even that's not necessary.
If you insist on the E85, understand that the above recommendation of 28% more fuel jet means 28% more AREA, not diameter.
The stand alone up-front fuel system with race gas would be more than enough insurance. If your tune is good, even that's not necessary.
If you insist on the E85, understand that the above recommendation of 28% more fuel jet means 28% more AREA, not diameter.
03-29-2012, 01:30 PM
#14
One of the cheapest forms of race fuel around available in my area at the pump, burns cleaner, cooler, allows more ignition timing advance on the bottle.... I'm sort of lost on why you wouldn't want to run it. That's like saying why run on 93 octane when you can buy 87.
I'd rather not add an entire standalone system if it isn't necessary which it obviously isn't.
I'd rather not add an entire standalone system if it isn't necessary which it obviously isn't.
1. Your engine off the spray can't use any more octane than 93 pump gas already provides.
2. E85 isn't gasoline. It is alcohol. It will get in your oil and make bearing soup if you don't get the oil up to temp all the time and have the crankcase properly vented.
3. The ethanol content of "E85" is variable causing changes in your tune from tank to tank.
4. Unless you make your car truly flex fuel compatible, you will be restricting yourself to only stations that sell E85.
5. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water. This means it is much more susceptible to "going bad" due to poor storage methods than gasoline.
03-29-2012, 01:38 PM
#15
All of that is speculation and regurgitated book knowledge.
In the real world you don't have nearly the issues people say you will when setup properly.
Also there ARE positive benefits to motors that aren't high compression. There is more to a fuel than octane... that's from real racers though, not internet experts.
In the real world you don't have nearly the issues people say you will when setup properly.
Also there ARE positive benefits to motors that aren't high compression. There is more to a fuel than octane... that's from real racers though, not internet experts.
03-29-2012, 02:06 PM
#16
Hydroscopic and how much it varies are real concerns. Hell I have problems with E10 in my lawn equipment. I read a thread on this forum recent(maybe another section) where a guy was having a hard time tuning and finally tested the fuel and found it nowhere near 85% ethanol.
While the fuel system on LT1s is not "rated" for more than 10% there are guys running E85 and they haven't reported fuel system issues.
While the fuel system on LT1s is not "rated" for more than 10% there are guys running E85 and they haven't reported fuel system issues.
03-29-2012, 03:06 PM
#17
how many in this thread actually run E85? Now that there are two posters left...
You will make more power on E85 N/A despite what the inexperienced think. Octane has nothing to do with anything in regards to methanol or ethanol. You may actually use LESS timing on E85 compared to gasoline depending on what your engine wants. In regards to the actual ethanol content in E85 affecting consistency of the fuel... all bullshit. The fuel is so flexible and tuning window so large you likely will not be able to tell any difference from E70-E85. I wouldn't go mixing different fuels on the spray because of different burn rates and likelyhood of hotspots
You will make more power on E85 N/A despite what the inexperienced think. Octane has nothing to do with anything in regards to methanol or ethanol. You may actually use LESS timing on E85 compared to gasoline depending on what your engine wants. In regards to the actual ethanol content in E85 affecting consistency of the fuel... all bullshit. The fuel is so flexible and tuning window so large you likely will not be able to tell any difference from E70-E85. I wouldn't go mixing different fuels on the spray because of different burn rates and likelyhood of hotspots
03-29-2012, 04:02 PM
#18
You will make more power on E85 N/A despite what the inexperienced think. Octane has nothing to do with anything in regards to methanol or ethanol. You may actually use LESS timing on E85 compared to gasoline depending on what your engine wants. In regards to the actual ethanol content in E85 affecting consistency of the fuel... all bullshit. The fuel is so flexible and tuning window so large you likely will not be able to tell any difference from E70-E85. I wouldn't go mixing different fuels on the spray because of different burn rates and likelyhood of hotspots.
Here are a few reasons off the top of my head I wouldn't use it in a combo like yours:
1. Your engine off the spray can't use any more octane than 93 pump gas already provides.
2. E85 isn't gasoline. It is alcohol. It will get in your oil and make bearing soup if you don't get the oil up to temp all the time and have the crankcase properly vented.
3. The ethanol content of "E85" is variable causing changes in your tune from tank to tank.
4. Unless you make your car truly flex fuel compatible, you will be restricting yourself to only stations that sell E85.
5. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water. This means it is much more susceptible to "going bad" due to poor storage methods than gasoline.
1. Your engine off the spray can't use any more octane than 93 pump gas already provides.
2. E85 isn't gasoline. It is alcohol. It will get in your oil and make bearing soup if you don't get the oil up to temp all the time and have the crankcase properly vented.
3. The ethanol content of "E85" is variable causing changes in your tune from tank to tank.
4. Unless you make your car truly flex fuel compatible, you will be restricting yourself to only stations that sell E85.
5. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water. This means it is much more susceptible to "going bad" due to poor storage methods than gasoline.
I'm not worried about how the car performs off bottle.
E85 station is three miles from me.
I understand the effects E85 has on oil (blowby) and honestly if you are used to running a lot of nitrous, you don't sit and wait for 3K miles to pass before changing your oil anyways.
03-29-2012, 04:04 PM
#19
I wouldn't pull off the rail and spray like that. When I went to a dedicated system (I run e85 in the dedicated and in the car) and went low pressure with it my life got a lot easier. Because then from your roughly calculated jet selection you can dial it in with 1/2 lb fuel pressure adjustments to it.
I have used plenty of E85.