Z28Camaro30Ann

iTrader: (15)

Oh wow, thanks Jon! Please don't take this the wrong way because I honestly do not mean this as an insult at all. Where do you get this info from, personal experience or what? I ask just so I know the accuracy. I apologize if that info is in your Sig, I am on my phone and can't see sigs. Thanks again for the info!

94FBIRD

iTrader: (5)

You race at 5,830 ft. above sea-level. You should be shooting for a 12.5 to 1 compression ratio. Even sea-level cars get away with that over 12 to one comp. ratio. You're leaving free power on the table.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

CFMs are just the quantity of air, not the quality, and should not be the sole deciding factor on head selection. While I wouldn't be a guinea pig for Joe Shmo's Porting Service, there are still other companies then LE, AI or even AFR that can make a great cylinder head from one of many castings. Depending on your goals you may be well served with a quality stock casting port job, or may want to go to an aftermarket casting for more potential down the line. Maybe you just want to skip right ahead to a max ported aftermarket casting and let your build spiral out of control with the rest of us .

Yes, but that is extremely difficult and those are not exactly typical results. When making comparisons, its usually best to throw out the exceptionally high data points along with the exceptionally low ones and focus on the median and averages.

Z28Camaro30Ann

iTrader: (15)

Hey man, long time no see lol. How ya been?

I am not TOO savvy on compressions ratio's and what is "safe" or "unsafe" and where exactly they help or hurt a power band, but I want to learn...

If this is a daily driver street car, with the setup you see above, that will get a safe CR up here at 5800ft, and still be able to drive down to a 600ft DA and run safely, what would I need? Is a 12.0 or a 12.5 still safe?? Also, how will it change how the car responds?? My 411 RWHP build had a CR of 11.7 and I LOVED the way it felt, but how do I determine what is good, what is safe, and where I start to lose power as far as the CR is concerned??

Jon A

Well, I do have a pretty good pair so I have plenty of "hands on." However, my mild little hydraulic 357 is hardly scratching the surface of their potential. That said, it does make 470 RWHP which is far above what most consider possible for a stock cube hydraulic build and I should be able to bump that up a fair amount with a few small tweaks. But there's plenty of potential left for when I put more motor under them.

For more info on their potential, when one realizes there's more to the SBC world than the LT1 and there are more than two head porters on the planet, tons of dynos of all sorts of combos using ported Darts from several porters are readily found, but I don't think you're supposed to post direct links here.

Anyway, back to your original question, as several porters have said, they have "lots of material in all the right places" to serve as a very good starting point for the top porters out there.

Of course the Darts aren't the only "good" brand, as unfortunately too many here seem to get locked into that way of thinking. There are tons of good 23 degree heads these days--the best selection we've ever had. If you want to be different, you have tons of choices that really will perform well if they're ported by somebody good. A nice thing about the Darts is they offer such a good casting basically "pre-converted" to LT1, while some of the other brands you'd need to pay extra to convert.

While it should go without saying I should probably point out most of the options I'm talking about above will cost more than the A.I. Trickflows. But you were asking about their potential, and it's there if you budget for it. Like I said, there are lots of really good choices these days.

I am happy to see you wanting or at least being open to trying something different. Especially when you know the scorn it invites in the "not so open-minded" LT1-world.

I really wish LT1 owners would stop being satisfied with ~420 RWHP as the performance ceiling for pump gas hydraulic builds. Progress has been made since the 90's, really it has. Use it. Where is the power made? The heads. Yes, the A.I. Trickflows are fine heads. So are a lot of other choices out there.

Z28Camaro30Ann

iTrader: (15)

Thank you VERY much for that insight Jon! That actually sounds pretty awesome! After what you said, I am going to research some porters and see what the overall cost would be to build a set of Dart heads and compare the cost to the others.

I agree with you,the AI Heads, AFR Heads and LE Heads are all GREAT, and proven heads, but I like to explore the untapped sources before I tun to the generics. I completed my own rendition of the LS1 Air Lid Conversion, I completed a custom A/C Delete Plate that maintains heat, and now I am considering what heads I should turn to for this build. If the Darts turn out to be a $3000+ project to need equivalent HP of the AI's or the TEA's, then I will probably not do it...however if I can get a set of Darts and set them up right for a comparable or a cheaper price then I am DEFINITELY willing to give it a shot.

When I built the 411 RWHP 357, there were A LOT of people saying I would never break 400 because my cam was too small, but I was giving a buddy a shot at specing a cam and I put my trust in him. It turned out that he did a good job. DESPITE all the nay-saying an the criticism, I initially put down 401 RWHP/373 RWTQ, and ran a 13.2 at Bandimere Speedway on a 9200 D/A day...After some tweaking and the LS1 Air Lid, I put down 411 RWHP and 390 RWTQ and managed a 12.99 at Bandimere on a 5200 D/A day. Both times were on street tires with a 2.1 60ft. Thanks Calvin, I know you are reading this haha

As for the new heads, everyone has TF's, or AFR's, or LE's...I have given LE and AFR a shot so far with a set of AFR 185's and a set of LE2's, and BOTH were great heads for their applications. I want to give someone else a shot, and I would prefer to do it with something that will surprise people. If I spend $2600 and put down 450 RWHP running high 11's with AI 215's, then everyone will say it was expected, and that is AI for you........if I spend under $2600 and I put down 451+ running mid 11's or better, I will surprise people and prove that it can be done...Just like I did with my 411 RWHP.

If I fail, and I end up making LESS power, or not putting down very good times, lesson learned...I can give the next guy that tries this some legitimate, experienced information instead of saying it wont work because I heard from someone else that their mom said that her cousin's dad's grandpa had bad luck with them once.

So enough of that...I will do some research tomorrow and over the next few days and make a decision from there...

Once again Jon, thank you for the informative posts! Glad that someone had legitimate experience with the Dart heads instead of just writing them off due to hearsay lol.

I still would like to know the answers to my compression ratio questions though haha!

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

I know a guy using the Dart 215s on a gen 1, pretty quick car BUT they have been so heavily modified that calling them "dart" is almost dishonest. At just over 400ci it also turns more than 8000rpm. To take his exact heads and bolt them to a 7000rpm 383 would likely be a lesson in failure, like I said they are heavily modified.

Point being you need to look for results with comparable setups to your own. It doesn't matter what head is on an 8 second racecar turning 8000rpm with a power adder if you are looking to build a 7000rpm NA hydraulic street/strip car. A head can be great but still not be appropriate.

Far as my statement about ported stock castings making over 500rwhp that was a reply to tt383lt1 trying to sell 550fwhp as a big number.

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

to answer your ? OP i have had EXCELLENT results with the AI 215 TFS head.......they have my vote

warriorcustoms

iTrader: (10)

Ok comparing out of the box heads to ported. Not really fair!!! Theres a guy on here making 541 @ the wheels with a set of fully ported Pro 1 180cc heads on a 383 ltx. I personally have had great results with Dart products. Thats why my 396 ltx is gettin a set of Pro 1 200cc heads with clean up & bowl work. Let AI port a set of Pro 1s. Then it would be a level playing field!!! My wkend toy will be fun & hurt some ford & hemi feelings.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

AI had played with the Dart LT1 castings and then decided to release a program for them. I can not speak to why.

If you simply search this section with Advanced Induction as the use and "Dart" as the search term you will find some info.

Jon A

You forgot option #3: Spend more and put down even more power!

One note on your intake choice, I see you have ported LT1 listed. You might not want to write that in stone until you decide on the heads. The Darts (and of course some other castings) can be ported such that the intake ports are as tall (or even a bit taller) than the LT4 Race gasket so a ported LT4 makes for a better fit. Some porters can do the Darts either way, some will have a preference.
No problem. I find your approach refreshing, glad to help.

Wicked94Z

iTrader: (26)

seems like not much tech, and lots of nuthugging.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Someone please show us results from Dart LT1 heads, the few results I know of are not anything spectacular. I only know of one fast car with them and the amount of effort that went into it being fast is more than what others have done to go half a second faster.

I know Jon A's car is not a drag car so it is hard to compare it to the rest of us who use the dragstrip as our main source of play and verification of mods. If you have drag times for it though I am sure everyone would like to see them.

vtec

iTrader: (1)

x2. there are some very warm nuts in the LT1 world. also nobody wants to come up with their own plan, they just copy what someone else has done. not a bad idea per se, but if you want to be a big dog you should get some books out, start reading and expand your mind a little bit. people have been racing the small block chevy for 50 years. small differences aside, the LT1 is just a sbc.

just because you run a product doesnt mean its the best option out there for everyone else.

BIGCAT7274

lmao.

355z28

iTrader: (8)

After reading that I have a lot more respect for you, knowing what Heads are on your car its nice to see that you are not saying that they cant be other options.

Its nice to put something on that has proven results and you know what you are getting rather then taking a risk investing money and having to do it a 2nd time. But every single one of the products that are proven someone took a risk on them at one time.

vtec

iTrader: (1)

just doin what i can to keep it real.

BIGCAT7274

a little bit of advice. take every thing with a grain of salt. rwhp numbers are no more or less valid than cfm numbers for heads.

joelster

Doesn't Brady M run a Dart LT1 head? His car is pretty quick. 10.07 at 135 through a t56 at 1550ft. I don't know what is done to them though.

F0x Slaughter

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...n/viewall.html