96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

You might be surprised where AI got their start.
There is a hint in the description for their 226cc 243 casting LS head.
http://advancedinduction.com/LSX/AiL...cGMLS2Head.php

Let's just say whatever he doesn't have in his own shop he has access to.

This is not an enthusiast turned entrepreneur in a shed behind the house farming out the machining.

This is a professionally trained racing supplier who uses street stuff to fill time on very high end machines.

WS Sick

To play devil's advocate here, there is no mention of any of this on their site, so at face value one could only assume.

Melkor

I remember Phil from his days at CZ28.com, before starting AI. That was maybe 10 years ago? I've been in road racing since ~'83 and have a number of friends --jealous because they have much more time than I do-- who run Silver State, One Lap, Rolex series and the like. I've designed and built a number of components for these cars over the years so I know a few of the builds more intimately than others.
I have nothing against AI, they undoubtedly do a wonderful job with LSx and LTx cylinder heads, just that I personally haven't heard anything about them in autoX circles. Good, bad, indifferent, I have nothing bad to say either way, I'm simply passing along my own personal experiences in this area.

Mike grinds his own cams, on his own equipment. He does not use old polynomial methods of cam design like most still do and does not simply order a cam with "XX-series" lobes to fulfill a customer's requirements. The guy has well over 30 years experience designing valve lift curves specifically for the application and his credentials speak for themselves.

Good to keep lots of options open here. I personally will call and talk to many companies to gauge their knowledge and helpfulness before pulling the trigger on anything, but that's just me.

Cheers

Jazz-LT1

iTrader: (2)

Honestly in autocross it really isn't going to matter that much. I'm running a CC305 cam and honestly the car is WAY overpowered for most courses even with the stock horsepower. You definitely want to make sure you have a broad torque curve, so don't go too big on the cam or you'll have a very small sweet spot and be shifting the thing all the time. Remember, drag cars generally operate in a very small RPM window and it doesn't matter what the overall curve looks like. With an autocross car its important that you be able to pull from lower rpm's to prevent too many shifts since it's important to keep the suspension loaded when cornering, etc. Just my $0.02, but I've very happy with my CC305 and it has a "near stock" idle if you're trying to run a bit of cam without drawing attention to it.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Melkor, I am fully aware who Mike Jones is.
I have seen him post elsewhere that he has had Phil do work for him........


The racing community down there is smaller than people think.

Melkor

96caprice, my posts are not directed at you or any 'one' person in particular. Just want to be clear about that up front.

Though I would like to know what kind of "work" we're talking about? If you have some idea where this was divulged, you should be able to hunt it down and provide a url, easily enough. That might shed a bit more light here.

I'm talking very specifically about camshaft and valvetrain design for endurance racing.

I know for a fact that AI was using Comp lobes on many of their older cams and not anything that came out of Jones' shop.

As for NC, it's smaller than some think, I agree, but I've been pretty heavily involved in it for some years now and racers tend to talk.

Jazz,

All depends on the class you're competing with and the tracks you compete on. A parking lot full of cones and Willow Springs might need different setups... goes without saying.

Cheers

The Batman

iTrader: (4)

I do plan on giving a call to a few shops and finding out more personalized information. I have this posted on FRRAX as well, and I haven't recieved hardly any responses. I understand that I will more than likely require a more moderate cam than I would if I was doing some headwork as well. What are some of the more specific things I should be looking for in a cam design?

Melkor

I would also call and talk to Mark or Tim at Bullet Cams and see what they have to say.
http://bulletcams.com/

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...ing/index.html
http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...h/viewall.html
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...he_people.aspx

Jazz-LT1

iTrader: (2)

I totally agree, but it's also not possible to build a motor that does EVERYTHING perfectly either. I'm always included for reliability sake to go with a smaller cam and more massaged heads simply because of the wider torque curve and lower stresses on the valve train.

There's definitely a difference between a big fast track and autocross, but I think he's looking at both and a mild cam with well massaged heads seems to fit the intermediate bill pretty well. Just my opinion though.

Melkor

No, I totally agree with your assessment Jazz.

Cheers

The Batman

iTrader: (4)

Thank you for the links. I am going to give Mike Jones a call, and I will go from there. On Frrax, Alan Blaine (blainefabrication) recommended elliottsportworks.com (lloyd elliott). So I guess my new plan is to make a bunch of phone calls. Hopefully they all dont just tell me what I want to hear "oh yeah, we do a lot of road racing stuff"

speed_demon24

iTrader: (6)

Here's a good readup on camshafts. Even though its geared towards the lsx crowd the same principles hold true for any platform.

http://www.advancedinduction.com/LSX...BilletCams.php

Adam1203

iTrader: (5)

That has some good information on it. Its funny to because many people attack cams on here Because of OLD Lob technology. AI says that its nothing but a marketing scheme which seems to be working.

regardless thanks for posting that it had some good information in it.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Old and new lobe technology is maybe the wrong way to look at things. Maybe the better way to look at things is lobes that take advantage of the better springs we have today vs. 15 years ago. These days you can daily drive a .600lift cam where 15 years ago springs to handle that were less available.

The other thing is 15 or even 10 years ago and even today with many big companies the belief is you "need" 112+LSA to play nice with the computer but in the last 10 years more and more smaller shops are specing tight LSA cams and you will find most of the quick NA cars are using such. Now a tight LSA alone is not the key some shops are better than others at arranging the lobes right. So again there can be something to using a newer designed cam but it isn't really the lobes but more up to date understanding of what can and can not work.

QC is another big thing. A friend has a pretty wild gen 1 they had lobes designed for the engine and ordered them to be ground by a BIG company when they put it on the spintron it was way out of control, analysis found the surface finish was wrong, a polish helped, they did all that before putting it on the CamDoctor and finding out the company had substituted lobes of their own that were "close enough". Well they weren't close enough all they did was grind the wrong lobes into the core and the guy had to get another core and send it somewhere where they would grind the lobes they had designed for the engine. After that it worked well.

Had he not had a highend engine builder with far above average resources the project would not have come together well.

Melkor

Discussing advances in technology is somewhat silly when excluding camshafts isn't it?

We talk about valvesprings? Cleaner materials, better hi-temp alloys, dampening through progressive design, wire shape, etc..

All things that have really advanced in the last ten years.

Camshafts and lobes specifically?

Would we rather have a camshaft designed with a polynomial approach or one that was designed using b-splines for better continuity and overall valvetrain smoothness?

If we don't understand the terminology... then shouldn't we have a firm grasp of continuity before really debating the subject further??

Would you rather drive a race car through a corner hitting 4-8 nodes/points, or a continuous/smooth curve? Which will be faster? Which is easier on parts?

How much better is the machinery than ten years ago?

I know in our shop (aero/gas turbine), the machines have become over twice as accurate in the last fifteen years... from ~25nm to 10nm repeatability.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

You guys talk the guy away from a highend CNC shop in favor of handwork and then begin talking about how much better machinery has gotten?

Melkor

High-end CNC?

You mean, those with a history of championship winning programs?

http://www.cferacing.com/?pid=history
http://www.speierracingheads.com/head.htm
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com/index.htm
http://www.m2race.com/
http://www.profilerperformance.com/r...d-hitman-x-cnc
http://www.alanjohnsonperformance.co...nderheads.html

Hey, one of the winning'est guys out there ports by hand. Lives in Louisiana. I'll let you tell me who is is though.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

While a good CNC program beats a mainstream hand port job, or one focusing on a budget, a max effort head will often be hand ported...even if not completely done by hand then after an initial CNC job. That way the cylinder head can be tailored to that individual engines desired specs - things like cross sectional area and port size are not one size fits all and its expensive to have many different programs for then possible combinations.

Due to core shift and natural port-to-port differences a CNC program needs to have some compromises made that a guy with a rotary tool in one hand and a caliper in the other wont have.

Melkor

Exactly.

I personally have never seen a head come off a 'race' engine that still had cusp marks in every portion of the runner, as if untouched after CNC porting.

To CNC the perfect port, you'd have to know exactly what the perfect port should be for a particular car. And that's going to vary on a whole slew of variables. So, it stands to reason that CNC'd ports are often used as a guideline before working the minimum CSA and overall port shape to the application.

speed_demon24

iTrader: (6)

You act like the average enthusiast is going to get that quality with a set of ~$1500 heads. I know I sure as hell didn't. And contrary to popular belief there is a ton of machinework done to a head besides porting that is more important considering it effects both power and reliability.