Melkor

I believe the point was that... a hand port is actually easier to customize to suit the application. A port designed to work well on a 3600lb car with a T56 will be slightly compromised on an auto. Start removing weight and it becomes even less optimal... add a TH350 and things shift even further.

Are you going to get that for $1500? Probably not. But to say that a CNC port is the best in every case is like saying that a shoe store that only sells 7, 9 and 12's, all in B-width... has the best pair of shoes on the market.

Decking and exhaust port flange machining can/has been handled in shops for years.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Never said anything about you getting that from a $1500 set of heads. I even used the words "mainstream" and "budget" to clarify that.

Melkor

Meant to comment on this earlier...

"Specing a LSA" is the wrong approach all together. If you find a shop or cam designer doing this, or talking much about it, then find another shop/designer.

LSA is simply the result of placing the intake valve opening point, exhaust valve closing point and determining the desired amount of overlap. It's not a 'targeted' number by any means.... at least it shouldn't be.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

I understand that LSA is not the target number but rather a product.

I also understand that the belief a budget hand porter can tailor a pair of heads to your exact situation is a ******* joke used as an excuse to push a lower quality product. We have documented proof of the typical inconsistency, if the ports aren't consistent one to the other it is laughable to think that one set of heads is tailored to one car vs. another. Yes different applications can benefit from slightly different heads BUT at the street level we are better off to buy a very good port and be happy with it rather than pretend someone is developing a port just for me.

Melkor

My apologies if you're extremely "LSA" centric post seemed to indicate otherwise. I felt some clarification was in order.

And for the record, there are plenty of extremely fast cars out there that just so happen to run best with 112+ LSAs, which is just the way it works out when placing the IVC/EVO events and desired overlap. Lots of canted valve stuff happens to make more high rpm HP with less overlap than typical for a 23º. I run a 112º LSA cam in my 440 with 14º heads and at ~1.8hp/cid it does alright, and for all intents and purposes, would perform on the street as well.

Who's pushing a product here?

I don't see anything in this thread that says, buy from guy "x". So, who's "low quality product" are you referring to?

Seems we have a case of foot-in-mouth going on here.

The "street level" is subjective. Not everyone wants to haul a boat and go mid 11's. In fact, most serious street guys want to run 10's or better and if you hang around the "old car" forums, those guys typically consider a 9-second street car to be "par for course". So, what you want to build vs what everyone else wants, might vary.

You're right though, if I wanted a consistent cookie-cutter port that is developed around a car that uses 'a' displacement, turning to 'b' rpm, weighing 'c' weight, running 'd' diameter tire with 'e' rear gear and 'f' transmission, etc., etc., then I'd digitize a 'hand port' and cut them on a 5-axis machining center.

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

Melkor, You obviously know as much about this subject as the rest of us, but I find that last post just humorous! You don't need to try so hard to impress!
The OP asks about an LT1 with 23 deg heads. Like it or not, the "Blunt One" you're arguing with is right ....lol!

Melkor

I am here for your amusement mate, and could care less if anyone here is impressed or not.

If people are going to be cowards, and not just come out and say who's products they feel are inferior, then I'd prefer they just man up, or keep it to themselves. I see a lot of this "saving people from themselves" mentality around here and for most of us, it comes off as nothing more than condescending bulletin-board rhetoric. It's insulting.

So again, WHO is pushing what here?

If you know anything about cylinder head design, minimum CSA sizing, throat sizing, etc., then you know why a hand port could be better tailored to an app slightly outside the norm. The quality will depend on who does the porting... and I personally haven't recommended anyone here.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Who said anything about a budget hand porter tailoring anything??? You are the only one who said that. You seem to LOVE to create arguments where none exist.

Not one single mention anywhere in the thread of any brand being better then another, or of a mainstream hand porting being as good as a proper CNC job.

Advanced Induction

iTrader: (2)

Oh yeah, we do a lot of road racing stuff.

Have for a long time - I was working w/ endurance engines when I started doing heads for the public. You guys won't see many RR customers posting for two reasons that should be fairly obvious. 1. Engine builders have nothing to gain by advertising who they pay for consulting etc., and 2. I don't sponsor, give out decals, or do freebies in general - from entry level to professional racing, individuals/builders/etc. pay full price for our info and/or product.

As my cam page explains, the advantage we offer, is that over the past decade I have digitized an immense number of lobe profiles from a multitude of cam companies. So, where an individual cam company can only select from their own designs, I can provide cams from whomever has what I feel is an ideal compromise for the application.

Of course, I don't sit and "discuss" cams which tends to put off some, because frankly there isn't anything to really discuss since .050" specs and the like don't describe enough to be of much use. I request info on the intended use, car setup, VT setup, desired spring change interval, RPM headroom, etc. and then dig up something I think is appropriate, get it inbound, and QC your individual cam to ensure it is as it should be. Not exactly comparable to the typical guy armed with a lobe catalog trying to dissect lobe designs by attempting to glean something from the claimed specs.

I do offer consulting (discussion, simulation, etc.), but don't post pricing since an individual has nothing to really gain from it.


Sometimes I wonder where guys read this misinformation, and what makes it sound plausible to them. From cup, to PS, to F1, everyone machining a high end head is doing everything they can to eliminate variables - to eliminate hand work entirely (yes, even minute blending). The idea that a guy with a grinder is in any way going to compete with a machine that can endlessly replicate a port that represents the maximum potential available for a given casting is inherently flawed - you couldn't get the same 8 ports, much less 16 ports, much less 16 ports and 8 chambers, etc. from a guy with a grinder at any price.

Guys buy CNC'd heads because they simply know what they are going to get if it is from a reputable company. That is not the case with hand porting.

Your theory on the perfect port falls apart when we take into account the reality of the canvas we have to work with. It is extremely rare you ever have the opportunity to make a port that is "perfect" for an application. Ports are a compromise, something else always needs to occupy that space.

Too much to respond to, but then again, it is the internets.

You want a cam? Do yourself a favor and pay someone who gets paid to provide them, or at least pick something out yourself, but don't let anyone with a keyboard and a few minutes time spend your money for you.

-Phil

Melkor

Welcome to the thread. Knew it wouldn't be long.

I do a fair amount of CFD work on gas turbine airfoil design, so I'm not exactly an amateur in the area. I'm curious to know, what are you using for software? Care to share a port screenshot?

What is your minimum CSA for the 'stage 2' port? Is your port model parametric, so that you can optimize it and the CNC program to fit something outside the stage1-2-3 or whatever number of ports you offer? I guess what I'm asking here is, how are you customizing your port to your customers car?

Also, were these ports completely CAD generated or scanned from a master that was in-fact, created by hand? How long did it take you to generate the master? Do you feel you could have improved it with more flowbench time? Perhaps a wetflow or one of the newer supersonic benches?

Are we also to believe that, because say... Larry Meaux hand ports, that his work will be inferior to yours? The guy holds has quite an array of record holders to his credit. My guess is, he might be a little offended.

Cheers

pkincy

iTrader: (1)

I apologize if I am missing something as I am coming to the thread late but looking through it I don't see much good advice yet.

First: forget the motor. You need more hp like you need a hole in the head right now. Suspension, you have done. Add some DOT legal race tires and some good brake pads and go have some fun.

Than go out and get LOTS of seat time. You got to fix the nut behind the wheel first.

I totally support the suspension work and you need something that can stop and can stick, but the last thing you need is more hp until you learn to control what you have.

I was able to do this at 230 rwhp (the limit of a 4th gen in the old CMC).



Have some fun and save some dough until you get your car and you dialed in first.

Not to scare you off, so here is something that wasn't so costly and was a hell of a lot more fun (btw, after putting it on its top, we made the next race at Sears Point 4 weeks later):



Perry

bowtienut

iTrader: (1)

Oh hell, just put a 3/4 racecam in it to go along with those "stage 2 ports".....lol!

Puck

iTrader: (17)

So are you saying someone like Larry Meaux or Craig Gallant won't be able to improve upon even a good CNC port by hand?

While I agree you won't get that from Llyod for a fraction of the price those guys ask, give either of them or any of the top tier hand porters the cash and they will in fact improve upon anyones CNC port, even your own admittedly stellar CNC'd heads (which I am a fan of).

Will it be cost effective for one of our lowely street cars? Maybe not, but that is neither hear nor their since we are not discussing value for money or best budget setup, but just flat out CNC vs hand porting.

JoeliusZ28

iTrader: (2)

Didn't read through the entire thread but I think my AI 226/234 has been perfect for road racing and auto-x. Road racing especially. My torque curve is flat as a table, so if I stick the throttle coming out of the corner and the traction holds, i know im going to maintain that traction unless there is a bump or something to unsettle the suspension. VERY predictable power curve and VERY fun to drive.

guppymech

iTrader: (7)

Phil, see what happens when you try to help out in a thread. You get some guy who designs blades for auxiliary power units or something climbing down your thoat. Wouldn't blame you if you didn't come back.

Melkor

Actually mate, they're for Lockheed military aircraft which is neither here nor there, because I don't design cylinder heads for a living. Was simply asking how they've designed theirs and what parameters they were designed TO, since that's the basis of my argument here. Wasn't my intent to jump down anyone's throat here.

I guess you could see it any number of ways. To me, I see it as the perfect opportunity for a cylinder head porter to educate the public on the superiority of his/her product vs a hand port from an experienced porter.

The Batman

iTrader: (4)

I understand that, but why do you show so many track results for drag racing? I understand that its harder to show results from a road race application, but I figured you may mention some of your work on endurance applications somewhere on the site.

Intended use: Road Racing/Autox/Street
Car Setup: t56 transmission, 17x11 wheels on all four corner with 315's, Stainless Steel 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" Stepped Long Tube Headers, electric water pump, bolt ons, etc. Short block will be stock crank, forged rods, and pistons. compression roughly 11.5:1
VT Setup: I would be using the parts included in your cam packages (comp ultra pro mags, chromoly pushrods, etc.)with stock heads that will be cleaned up by the local machine shop. I don't want to modify the heads myself(gasket matching, etc) because I don't want to be denied by a porter for having previously modified heads.
Spring Change interval is unknown/open for debate
Gearing will be 3:73, as 4:11 may require to much shifting around the track


I am just trying figure out what would be the strongest cam for my application without going too close to the drag racing setups. Thank you for your response

I understand and respect your comments, but I have a high mileage motor that is in need of a rebuild. I am not doing any major head work or anything until further down the road, I am just looking to replace my current cam and trying to get the best performing cam for my application. I am not going to rebuild my motor and pay to have a stock cam put back in. I know that I will only see a few events a year and the car will otherwise be driven maybe 1000 miles a year. Hell I haven't put 1000 miles on it in the past 4 years I do have a lot of experience being around a track from my years in motorcycle racing. Just trying to have fun with my old firehawk when I can. I don't plan on trying to be in a competitive class. Mainly just track days and small autox events.

This has been one of a few cam profiles from AI that has caught my interest. What was all done to the car to hit those numbers

JoeliusZ28

iTrader: (2)

You must be familiar with my car since I didn't post any numbers here - but I got 370rwhp with AI's cam, some extra compression (mill and gaskets), a little cleanup around the valve bowls (NO porting), pacesetter headers, 3" true duals, EWP, and an LS1 lid conversion. Thas' it n thas all. 350 rwtq across the board.

speed_demon24

iTrader: (6)

You should probably ditch that electric waterpump the first chance you get.

Rodinator1234

+1 on the electric water pump. Get rid of it. It's a fixed displacement pump and will only flow x no matter rpm or length of time you are at that rpm. IMHO they are only good for drag cars.