24x efi Conversion
12-09-2012, 05:55 PM
#41
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I understand that i was talking abt the actual conversion kit itself. I have spoke w you on the phone before i ended up finding a whole 24x kit off the classifieds for 1400 for all so i couldnt pass it up. I was saying even if i guy had both harnesses and repinned them on there own it wld still be 1k just because of the other items aside from the harness.
12-09-2012, 09:45 PM
#42
My $0.02... If the Opti is so great, then why did Chevy revise it twice (!) then finally replace it with a (V6 Buick-based) totally different system that had a completely configuration?
If a distributor under (and behind!) a water pump was 'good' initial design, it would still be around. It was not, therefore, it is not.
Full Disclosure:
Yes, I'm one of "those people" who have indeed replaced my Opti too many times - 7 or 8 - I can't remember anymore. But every time, it's been due to an actual part failure. Yes, the actual GM performance units last longer than the cheap overseas-made units, but they ALL still fail.
I know I'm not the only one on this board who's had excessive Opti problems, so OP, weigh your options - converting your ignition system (for you) may be a smart move. I've gotten so good at replacing my Opti that I'm sticking with it (for now) until I have the cash to make the switch.
12-09-2012, 10:34 PM
#43
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I must respectfully ask the following rhetorical question:
If the Opti is so great, then why did Chevy revise it twice (!) then finally replace it with a (V6 Buick-based) totally different system that had a completely configuration?
If a distributor under (and behind!) a water pump was 'good' initial design, it would still be around. It was not, therefore, it is not.
If the Opti is so great, then why did Chevy revise it twice (!) then finally replace it with a (V6 Buick-based) totally different system that had a completely configuration?
If a distributor under (and behind!) a water pump was 'good' initial design, it would still be around. It was not, therefore, it is not.
Points were made obsolete by HEI
The HEI was made obsolete by the Optispark
The Optispark was made obsolete by the DIS 24x system
But now the "End All Solution" 24x system has been made obsolete by the 58x system found on the GenIV motors and soon whatever is fitted to the new GenV LT1 will obsolete the former system. Just because a technology has been replaced doesn't mean that the previous technolgy is incapable of performing at a very high level.
A quality Optispark installed correctly and properly vented is normally quite reliable.
12-12-2012, 01:59 AM
#44
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WOW this thread exploded! lol
Basically I just wanted to know the pro's and con's.
I'm not ruling anything out yet just weighing the pro's and con's of each.
What sparked my interest is there is only one lt1 tuner in my area and 3 lsx tuners. I am afraid that in a few years there wont be anymore lt1 tuners in my area.
on the other hand I can have the ls1 in my car for a few hundred dollars. I'm thinking that is the better way to go because despite what people might think the ls1 swap is cheaper than building my lt1.
I got the ls1 for $900 from a friend who crashed so I have everything. I just need to rewire the harness for the lt1 style dash.
I was even considering swapping the dash out, but found that was a huge PITA.
The only thing that motivates me to keep the lt1 is that I can get a manual transmission cheaply. As for the ls1 I can't even find a damn manual transmission for it.
Whichever way I go I plan on selling all the excess parts including spare engine/transmissions/interior/suspension to recoup costs.
As for suspension I should have some koni yellow da's coming in the mail from a member on here. If they never show up and I get my money back I will be getting the koni 4/4 sa + strano set up.
My goals for this car are
1. Big power, kinda smog legal, set up for highway pulls.
2. Pro touring like handling / canyon carver.
3. Convert to manual transmission.
I know I am talking big $$$ but I want to make a statement with my car. I also want to be able to step back at the end of the day and say that I did all the work myself.
Thanks for all the helpful reply's here! I understand the the 24x conversion might be overkill but since I had an ls1 computer lying around and someone to make me a harness I figured why not? I wouldn't have to worry about spending $300 for a new opti and I wouldn't really have to be paranoid about my water pump leaking. I have been lucky so far, my opti is at 140,000 miles and no signs of failure but I figure its only a matter of time and so why not get rid of it? That was the though process.
Basically I just wanted to know the pro's and con's.
I'm not ruling anything out yet just weighing the pro's and con's of each.
What sparked my interest is there is only one lt1 tuner in my area and 3 lsx tuners. I am afraid that in a few years there wont be anymore lt1 tuners in my area.
on the other hand I can have the ls1 in my car for a few hundred dollars. I'm thinking that is the better way to go because despite what people might think the ls1 swap is cheaper than building my lt1.
I got the ls1 for $900 from a friend who crashed so I have everything. I just need to rewire the harness for the lt1 style dash.
I was even considering swapping the dash out, but found that was a huge PITA.
The only thing that motivates me to keep the lt1 is that I can get a manual transmission cheaply. As for the ls1 I can't even find a damn manual transmission for it.
Whichever way I go I plan on selling all the excess parts including spare engine/transmissions/interior/suspension to recoup costs.
As for suspension I should have some koni yellow da's coming in the mail from a member on here. If they never show up and I get my money back I will be getting the koni 4/4 sa + strano set up.
My goals for this car are
1. Big power, kinda smog legal, set up for highway pulls.
2. Pro touring like handling / canyon carver.
3. Convert to manual transmission.
I know I am talking big $$$ but I want to make a statement with my car. I also want to be able to step back at the end of the day and say that I did all the work myself.
Thanks for all the helpful reply's here! I understand the the 24x conversion might be overkill but since I had an ls1 computer lying around and someone to make me a harness I figured why not? I wouldn't have to worry about spending $300 for a new opti and I wouldn't really have to be paranoid about my water pump leaking. I have been lucky so far, my opti is at 140,000 miles and no signs of failure but I figure its only a matter of time and so why not get rid of it? That was the though process.
Last edited by Robbie Wilson; 12-12-2012 at 02:11 AM.
12-13-2012, 12:14 AM
#45
Opti UBER ALLES I don't want to get into a pointless debate, however I must disagree with your mischaracterization of my original post.
My reasoning is sound.
To be clear: I never said “Newer was better” – I said “Better was better”.
The Buick V6 distributorless ignition system that I made reference to (which you ignored in your Straw-man argument) was available before the Opti and after the Opti. Chevy recognized their mistake with the Opti and updated their ignition system to Coilpacks.
I never said (nor implied) that a new, high quality Opti was not capable of performing at “very high levels”, but even the most strident Opti supporter must concede that it requires a level of commitment to periodic maintenance which is not required with all subsequent Chevy V8 ignition systems.
My brother’s LS1 2004 GTO has never required a Cap and Rotor, but (having said that), I’ve never replaced the condenser or manually adjusted the dwell on my Optispark either.
An Opti can be reliable, but it still has several moving parts, and moving parts wear out; that's why newer systems only use a trigger wheel and a hall effect sensor - they don't touch and there is only one moving part. It is simply a better system. There, I said it - Coilpacks are better than an Opti.
(Let the flame-war begin!)
My reasoning is sound.
To be clear: I never said “Newer was better” – I said “Better was better”.
The Buick V6 distributorless ignition system that I made reference to (which you ignored in your Straw-man argument) was available before the Opti and after the Opti. Chevy recognized their mistake with the Opti and updated their ignition system to Coilpacks.
I never said (nor implied) that a new, high quality Opti was not capable of performing at “very high levels”, but even the most strident Opti supporter must concede that it requires a level of commitment to periodic maintenance which is not required with all subsequent Chevy V8 ignition systems.
My brother’s LS1 2004 GTO has never required a Cap and Rotor, but (having said that), I’ve never replaced the condenser or manually adjusted the dwell on my Optispark either.
An Opti can be reliable, but it still has several moving parts, and moving parts wear out; that's why newer systems only use a trigger wheel and a hall effect sensor - they don't touch and there is only one moving part. It is simply a better system. There, I said it - Coilpacks are better than an Opti.
(Let the flame-war begin!)
While I mostly agree with your logic it doesn't completely hold water. By your reasoning:
Points were made obsolete by HEI
The HEI was made obsolete by the Optispark
The Optispark was made obsolete by the DIS 24x system
But now the "End All Solution" 24x system has been made obsolete by the 58x system found on the GenIV motors and soon whatever is fitted to the new GenV LT1 will obsolete the former system. Just because a technology has been replaced doesn't mean that the previous technolgy is incapable of performing at a very high level.
A quality Optispark installed correctly and properly vented is normally quite reliable.
Points were made obsolete by HEI
The HEI was made obsolete by the Optispark
The Optispark was made obsolete by the DIS 24x system
But now the "End All Solution" 24x system has been made obsolete by the 58x system found on the GenIV motors and soon whatever is fitted to the new GenV LT1 will obsolete the former system. Just because a technology has been replaced doesn't mean that the previous technolgy is incapable of performing at a very high level.
A quality Optispark installed correctly and properly vented is normally quite reliable.
12-13-2012, 01:02 AM
#46
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No flame war at all, I like the explanation in this post a lot better and I agree with every point made in it. I ended up taking a shot at you which I apologize for, all I was getting at was that for an individual who is asking questions like "is the ignition system easer on the crank" and "if it changes the firing order" I think it best for him to stick with the Opti for now and worry about the conversion after a lot of research since almost none of his questions are addressed by this swap. Aside from higher RPM capabilities, none of his concerns are addressed via this kit. However his later mentioned concern of finding a local tuner is absolutely addressed by this swap, so who knows.
OP's concerns aside, my biggest concern was that I didn't want the advantages of the 24x to be so highlighted and blown out of proportion that the OP absolutely felt the need to convert as if the original hardware was somehow incapable of performing its daily task now.
I apologize for being so snappy and singling you out of the group. No doubt in my mind that the 24x and 58x kits are absolutely superior when looking for the ultimate GM ignition system. But for a mild daily driver that is running just fine with the stock configuration I say leave well enough alone.
OP's concerns aside, my biggest concern was that I didn't want the advantages of the 24x to be so highlighted and blown out of proportion that the OP absolutely felt the need to convert as if the original hardware was somehow incapable of performing its daily task now.
I apologize for being so snappy and singling you out of the group. No doubt in my mind that the 24x and 58x kits are absolutely superior when looking for the ultimate GM ignition system. But for a mild daily driver that is running just fine with the stock configuration I say leave well enough alone.
Originally Posted by OP
Is there any benefit to this conversion?
Hp gains?
Is it easier on the crank?
Reliability at higher power-levels/rpm?
Any real world reason for me to do it? Or just for the extreme?
Also would this change the lt1 firing order to the ls1 firing order?
And if it does change the firing order would it change the lt1 sound and make it sound more like an ls1 - the alum. block?
Hp gains?
Is it easier on the crank?
Reliability at higher power-levels/rpm?
Any real world reason for me to do it? Or just for the extreme?
Also would this change the lt1 firing order to the ls1 firing order?
And if it does change the firing order would it change the lt1 sound and make it sound more like an ls1 - the alum. block?
Last edited by BOOSTED AFR; 12-13-2012 at 08:31 PM.
12-13-2012, 03:53 PM
#47
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I dont think ive ever seen not one time even 96 saying that the opti system is a better ign system than 24x. I think and also agree w 96 and boosted in saying that IMO this particular user was not at a spot where he wld benefit from having it. 96 point is optis are out there and making alot of power and the tuning software is cheaper , and that there is still plenty of people that are tuning. Yes there is a certain amount of maintence involved with opti, but we all know coils do not last forever either especially in high horsepower settings. There are pro and cons to everything, 24x is a mod and as all mods go theres an order in which installing them gains you the most. This user is no where near where 24x would give him enough gains justify him doing it.
12-13-2012, 08:24 PM
#49
2X Vote Agreed. (My apologies if I sounded like a d**k.)
OP (and everyone else for that matter) -
"Car Craft" did an LT1 / 24X conversion story about 18 months ago - if I recall properly, they made about +5 ft-lbs of torque throughout the entire RPM range.
Additionally (again - if I recall correctly), in the upper rpm range, there was a lot less misfiring from the LT1.
(The whole issue is the costs vs. the benefits...)
OP (and everyone else for that matter) -
"Car Craft" did an LT1 / 24X conversion story about 18 months ago - if I recall properly, they made about +5 ft-lbs of torque throughout the entire RPM range.
Additionally (again - if I recall correctly), in the upper rpm range, there was a lot less misfiring from the LT1.
(The whole issue is the costs vs. the benefits...)
Last edited by great421; 12-13-2012 at 08:30 PM.
12-13-2012, 08:42 PM
#50
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Thanks guys but we are all right on here in some shape or form i for one am just glad the OP is asking better ?s and realizing that there is a place to start with mods, and i for one beleive that 24x is not one first mods that should be done to a lt1.
12-13-2012, 08:45 PM
#51
The other two covered most of this already so I will leave it lay.
Beyond that though I am very skeptical about reports of gains from ignition work because generally guys only change things when parts are worn.
You get the idiots who replace a 100K mile stock ignition system with an MSD opti and wires plus new plugs and swear it is the best thing ever failing to comprehend they replaced 100K mile cap/rotor/wires/plugs. Magazines are notorious for such shenanigans, like the Granatelli MAF article where they mention the airfilter might have been original in the "before" test so they put a fresh one on with the new MAF and WOW they gained power.
Far as the opti being a "mistake" and "two revisions" what was the second revision? Not second VERSION second revision?
The entire LT1 program was a bandaid on the gen 1 SBC while the LS1 was in development. By shortening the "drivetrain" of the distributor they made the opti just a little more accurate than a rear distributor. It was a small improvement without major rework just like the rest of the LT1. That doesn't make it a mistake.
Beyond that though I am very skeptical about reports of gains from ignition work because generally guys only change things when parts are worn.
You get the idiots who replace a 100K mile stock ignition system with an MSD opti and wires plus new plugs and swear it is the best thing ever failing to comprehend they replaced 100K mile cap/rotor/wires/plugs. Magazines are notorious for such shenanigans, like the Granatelli MAF article where they mention the airfilter might have been original in the "before" test so they put a fresh one on with the new MAF and WOW they gained power.
Far as the opti being a "mistake" and "two revisions" what was the second revision? Not second VERSION second revision?
The entire LT1 program was a bandaid on the gen 1 SBC while the LS1 was in development. By shortening the "drivetrain" of the distributor they made the opti just a little more accurate than a rear distributor. It was a small improvement without major rework just like the rest of the LT1. That doesn't make it a mistake.
12-13-2012, 08:46 PM
#52
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"Car Craft" did an LT1 / 24X conversion story about 18 months ago - if I recall properly, they made about +5 ft-lbs of torque throughout the entire RPM range.
Additionally (again - if I recall correctly), in the upper rpm range, there was a lot less misfiring from the LT1.
(The whole issue is the costs vs. the benefits...)
Additionally (again - if I recall correctly), in the upper rpm range, there was a lot less misfiring from the LT1.
(The whole issue is the costs vs. the benefits...)
If this is the story, then they found more than 5ft-lbs but I'm always skeptical about magazine results. All they had to do was dial in more timing or tune it a bit better with the new PCM. Regardless, it's a good read.
And agreed it is the cost vs. benefits and in my humble opinion, for the OP it weights in favor of an Opti.
12-14-2012, 01:22 AM
#53
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A while back my car was at about 95k and running extremely rough. As part of a complete overhaul, including an LE2 package, and other goodies, I replaced plug, wires, Opti, coil, ICM and retuned.
I originally bought one of the last "thepartsladi" delphi opti units which didn't function correctly, then replaced again with a genuine GM unit. To this day I still can't get the thing to run smoothly, despite hours and hours of tinkering with it and getting with Mr. Solomon on tuning.
I am seriously considering the 24x swap next because frankly I am tired of dealing with the Opti system. I think there is something to be said for ease of use and general reliability.
I have probably spent over a grand easily on tuning, distributers, coils, ICM, etc. and if I could go back and do it all again I would of gone with 24x from the start.
The Optispark system may have worked fine when properly setup for alot of people, but I just could never get it to work.
I originally bought one of the last "thepartsladi" delphi opti units which didn't function correctly, then replaced again with a genuine GM unit. To this day I still can't get the thing to run smoothly, despite hours and hours of tinkering with it and getting with Mr. Solomon on tuning.
I am seriously considering the 24x swap next because frankly I am tired of dealing with the Opti system. I think there is something to be said for ease of use and general reliability.
I have probably spent over a grand easily on tuning, distributers, coils, ICM, etc. and if I could go back and do it all again I would of gone with 24x from the start.
The Optispark system may have worked fine when properly setup for alot of people, but I just could never get it to work.
12-14-2012, 07:00 AM
#54
That's the story many people have withe the Opti. Some have great luck with them, others have nothing but bad luck with them.
On my '94, two stock-style units (including one from GM) never cured everything. Moving to the MSD unit did. To me, the best Opti system is the MSD unit and the LTCC coil setup.
On my '94, two stock-style units (including one from GM) never cured everything. Moving to the MSD unit did. To me, the best Opti system is the MSD unit and the LTCC coil setup.
12-14-2012, 07:51 AM
#55
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The other two covered most of this already so I will leave it lay.
Beyond that though I am very skeptical about reports of gains from ignition work because generally guys only change things when parts are worn.
You get the idiots who replace a 100K mile stock ignition system with an MSD opti and wires plus new plugs and swear it is the best thing ever failing to comprehend they replaced 100K mile cap/rotor/wires/plugs. Magazines are notorious for such shenanigans, like the Granatelli MAF article where they mention the airfilter might have been original in the "before" test so they put a fresh one on with the new MAF and WOW they gained power.
Far as the opti being a "mistake" and "two revisions" what was the second revision? Not second VERSION second revision?
The entire LT1 program was a bandaid on the gen 1 SBC while the LS1 was in development. By shortening the "drivetrain" of the distributor they made the opti just a little more accurate than a rear distributor. It was a small improvement without major rework just like the rest of the LT1. That doesn't make it a mistake.
Beyond that though I am very skeptical about reports of gains from ignition work because generally guys only change things when parts are worn.
You get the idiots who replace a 100K mile stock ignition system with an MSD opti and wires plus new plugs and swear it is the best thing ever failing to comprehend they replaced 100K mile cap/rotor/wires/plugs. Magazines are notorious for such shenanigans, like the Granatelli MAF article where they mention the airfilter might have been original in the "before" test so they put a fresh one on with the new MAF and WOW they gained power.
Far as the opti being a "mistake" and "two revisions" what was the second revision? Not second VERSION second revision?
The entire LT1 program was a bandaid on the gen 1 SBC while the LS1 was in development. By shortening the "drivetrain" of the distributor they made the opti just a little more accurate than a rear distributor. It was a small improvement without major rework just like the rest of the LT1. That doesn't make it a mistake.
12-14-2012, 08:44 AM
#56
Since I decided to go with the 24x system being done by BP, he and I are in the same boat since I'm just North of him. Driving too far for a dyno tune. When I finish my build, I'll need a mail order tune for start up ($150-175) Then go through constant datalogging, emailing back and forth, et,etc to get it right. Otherwise, I'll have to haul the car 4 hours East for a dyno tune, 4 hrs back. There is one shop 45 min North of here that will tune an LTx but I, wouldn't let them tune my bicycle chain.
Whereas LSx tuners are everywhere and the ones nearby are damn good. Plus investing in EFI live, I'll be able to tune my D-Max and finally put in my DSP-5 switch, my sons S10, etc, etc.
Whereas LSx tuners are everywhere and the ones nearby are damn good. Plus investing in EFI live, I'll be able to tune my D-Max and finally put in my DSP-5 switch, my sons S10, etc, etc.
12-14-2012, 10:11 AM
#57
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Bill from BP has been working with me to get my twin turbo, zf6 speed, 96 Caprice fired up for the first time. Hopefully I'm going to have him build the entire engine harness for the 0411 Vortec distributor swap, this car wil hopefully be show quality so I don't want to do it myself like the last one. He's quick to respond to questions and does top notch work. You'll be happy.
12-14-2012, 11:36 AM
#58
Since I decided to go with the 24x system being done by BP, he and I are in the same boat since I'm just North of him. Driving too far for a dyno tune. When I finish my build, I'll need a mail order tune for start up ($150-175) Then go through constant datalogging, emailing back and forth, et,etc to get it right. Otherwise, I'll have to haul the car 4 hours East for a dyno tune, 4 hrs back. There is one shop 45 min North of here that will tune an LTx but I, wouldn't let them tune my bicycle chain.
Whereas LSx tuners are everywhere and the ones nearby are damn good. Plus investing in EFI live, I'll be able to tune my D-Max and finally put in my DSP-5 switch, my sons S10, etc, etc.
Whereas LSx tuners are everywhere and the ones nearby are damn good. Plus investing in EFI live, I'll be able to tune my D-Max and finally put in my DSP-5 switch, my sons S10, etc, etc.