SwampWS6

iTrader: (7)

Ok guys I need your help. See mods in sig.

I am stuck deciding what should I do for a tranny. I currently have a T56 and its very fun to drive but from a competitive stand point an A4 would be waaaay more consistent.

Right now the car is in pieces.

I would like to do a 4L80E (pros - very durable unbuilt and if built can be pretty much bullet proof up to 1K hp. cons - eats up a generous amount of hp, decent amount of mods to make it fit and operate correctly and heavy) a 400TH (pros - cheap version of 4L80E, transbrake option. cons - no overdrive) and 4L60E (pros - We build performance trannys so we can make the 60E bulletproof. cons - concerns of weaknesses and longevity). I am leaning towards the 60E more so right now because of price and overdrive.

Like stated in other threads, I have seen a decent amount of 4L60Es run 8s without having to be rebuilt every year, so that was a comforting fact for me.

My other issue is the fact that I dont know hp range I will be in with my setup installed. So basically I dont want to make low hp and have a 80E and run sluggish. But I also dont want to have great hp and run it through a M6 because of shift concerns. I love driving M6's but the feel of your A4 pig steadily pulling on your opponent while he tries to grab another gear is really priceless.

So, should I drive the M6 till it tears up? Or sell it for one of the other options. What do you guys think?

Shownomercy

iTrader: (1)

A T56 built properly and safely for 750whp will be very expensive and require very expensive clutches. IMO.

A built 80e with proper torque converter will be cheaper, more consistent and reliable.

The 60e, well, I had no idea there were 8 second ones out there, what weight chassis and how long do they last?

SwampWS6

iTrader: (7)

The guy Im speaking of consistently run 1/8th mile tracks. but when he had taken the car to 1/4 mile track he put down a 8.97. I do not know the actual weight class but it was a nitrous 427 SBC. I was shocked! He says the more races the more likely a rebuild is needed. So after seeing that, it made me question my trans build. It takes a little less hp to turn over a 60E than a 80E. Plus I do not know what hp level my car will be at so thats somewhat a determining factor. So 8 secs and a 60E is sounding really good right now.

Not the guy I was talking bout but an example

Shownomercy

iTrader: (1)

Cool, did not know they went that fast.

Whats the price tag?

SwampWS6

iTrader: (7)

Only $4,495. We can build one with those same parts for only the price of parts and not worry about the hp loss as much

Jeremy@RPMTransmissions

iTrader: (12)

It takes more than just good parts to keep a 4L60e alive in an 8 second car

SwampWS6

iTrader: (7)

Yea I know. Its has to be built right with the good parts too

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

There are a handful of builders keeping 4L60Es alive in 9second cars without any wild mods.
The 4L60E gets a bad rap from "builders" who think they just need to dump out one pile of parts and dump in another. That isn't the case, it takes someone knowledgeable who takes the time to carefully set clearances and drill the right size holes in the separator plate.

The 4L60E has a better first gear and deeper OD than an 80 yes that comes at the expense of a big 1-2 ratio difference but with a good converter, and valvetrain that lets you go past peak it isn't a big deal.

SwampWS6

iTrader: (7)

Thanks so much. Thats exactly what I needed (and wanted to hear) about the 60E. Its just the norm of people go 4L80E because stock for stock vs the 60E, its stronger without dumping better parts in it. After doing reading and talking with a great tranny builder you pretty much will get equal results with a mildy built 60 or 80e. Now longevity in comparison of the two is a different story. If built the same I would expect hands down for the 80E to live a lot longer. But Im not 750rwhp guy so I think a 60E will be suffice.

But i have seen tons of 80Es break in a high 11 second cars and I have seen numerous 60Es make consecutive runs in high 9s so its all about a "good builder" at this point

Puck

iTrader: (17)

If its a quick drag car why not TH350 (or TH400 if its a nasty PA car)?

Cheaper, stronger, less power loss, bigger aftermarket...

DUDCOUPE

Coming from me save yourself the hastle and dont spend money on a "built" 60e. Go with a tried and true 350/400 if you dont want to massage a 80e in the tunnel

hrcslam

This^!

The 4L60e gets a horrible rap. It's ridiculous really. GM built hundreds of millions of these things for decades, they can absolutely be built to handle 90% of our performance needs. And they certainly exceed what people think they can handle. My Suburban has a 4L60e and in near stock form it towed a 12K lb trailer cross country without fail (surprised me actually) then went another 3 years from there. I've rebuild it with some upgrades this time and expect it to handle more abuse, cost me only $265....

A few parts will take the 4L60e to easily handle a 3800lbs race weight car into the 11's. I can build one in my garage for under $500 (no converter, $900 with converter). But that's one for me without labor. The information is out there.

Are there stronger transmissions? Yes. Do you NEED a stronger transmission? Or, is the stronger transmission that much more? ....


The T56 is a very strong transmission off the factory floor. They aren't nearly as cheap to build up as a 60e though (I paid $1300 to rebuild mine in parts and supplies, including clutch set, and I did the labor). But I have faith that it'll handle my 414rwhp with ease and likely more if I decide to add a healthy shot of giggle juice, the clutch isn't likely though.

I wouldn't even consider a 3 speed if this thing will see any kind of street duty. If you're gonna do it, do it right once, and don't do it again you know? If it's a dedicated drag car then I would lean to the 4L80e anyway; which will reduce rpm drop between shifts, allowing better power delivery, and higher big end speed because of the .74:1 OD ratio. This will also allow a taller tire and rear gear ratio...

I think the real question here is, does the 4L80e cost that much more, from where you are starting, than a 4L60e? If you already had a 4L60e I'd say stick with it and build it up (with a quality builder) if you're gonna keep it at 11's or slower.

But since you have neither, coming from an M6, I'd personally go 4L80e from the get no matter what.....

Shownomercy

iTrader: (1)

Even if its not a dedicated track car, a properly geared turbo car can easy get away with 3.08/3.23s, combined with some 28s, and you are easily cruising in 3rd gear, so TH400 is not that far fetched.

Personally, I have read immensely more 60e failures than I like, and that drove me to a built 80e. If all the fast cars just didn't get the memo about the 60e being that much better ...

hrcslam

I'm not saying the 60e is as strong as the 80e. It certainly is not, but most of us don't need the strength of the 80e and therefore the cost or hassle. A properly build 4L60e (which really doesn't take much) can handle the duty of 90% of the cars here easily, maybe even more.

Good point with the TH400 and gearing. But that same set up with an 80e would be better IMO. Easier to keep the RPM's up during shifts and a taller gear for cruising, but not to tall to take away from additional pulling up top. Or run a taller gear out back and have more acceleration. If the M6 to Auto swap is happening, the extra cost at that point is worth it IMO.

To be clear, I have an M6 and if I were to convert to Auto I'd go 80e all the way. But, if I had a 60e, I'd likely build that up unless I was looking to dip below mid-high 11's.

I guess it's not really about 1/4 times as much as it is about 60' and 330' times though huh...

DUDCOUPE

My performabuilt level 2 60e didnt like launching my 3800lb streeter into the 11s. I left 2nd and converter lockup at the starting line

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

People mistake a website for knowledge, a few folks have done OK with Performabuilt but they wouldn't make my list of shops I would trust.

I am very happy with ProBuilt Automatics and I know he has a few in the 9s.
Rossler has the single wildest application of a 4L60E I know of in Jeff Green's full weight Impala that is running well into the 150s at the dragstrip, the soft launches to keep the 8.5" 10-bolt alive are all that keeps that thing out of the 8s with an opti, 4L60E and as said the 8.5" 10-bolt.
I would trust FLT as well.

This is in no way a complete list of good shops, it is very important to understand that when it comes to the 4L60E a MINORITY of shops will put forth the effort to do it well, over the years I have seen a LOT of shops pop up and enjoy a great reputation for a year and then fizzle because all the builds start to fail.
Also important to understand a crappy pcm tuner can kill a well built transmission, which was why I went with the vacuum modulation mod in my ProBuilt. That way the tranny guy controls the clutches rather than the tuner.

hrcslam

That's basically (hydraulic and valve body work not identical to theirs and different 3/4 pack set up) what I did to my Suburbans transmission for $265. I wouldn't do 11's with my build, but with my build plus the 65e planetary set and hardened output shaft I would (about another $450, so I was wrong in my earlier post. It would cost me about $715 without converter to do this build).

I can get a 4L80e locally (rebuilt under warranty) for about $1K, so at that point I guess a 4L80e would be the better option for only about $500 more than a 4L60e build, If I had the extra $500 at that moment.

But, I digress. I build my own transmissions.

In your guys shoes, $2K for a Stage 2 4L60e or $1K for a rebuilt 4L80e? I'd go 4L80e too..

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

The early 4-pinion planetary was weak, the 4L60E planetary is NOT the 5-pinion planetary is 5 PM gears instead of 4 FORGED it is cheaper to make and did get a higher torque rating but lower rpm rating. Not much of a real upgrade but GREAT marketing and a good quality new part if you need a new planetary setup.

I don't have a hardened output or a sleeved input drum, has Vette servo, 4 pinion planetary, stock sunshell even not a beast. The beast is not balanced or at least wasn't a decade plus ago when I built my tranny, that was one reason I skipped it.

I will say it again, the 4L60E does NOT need a lot of fancy parts for an 11 second f-body. Adding fancy parts make it easier to justify a higher price though.

I believe bowtienut's 4L60E has been opened up a time or two but no major rebuild...........

nitrous2fast

iTrader: (2)

When I pulled my stocker 4l60e the stock sunshell had the typical crack at the top, it was almost half way around; Of course it has had hundreds of bottles of nitrous poured over it, so I believe the torque is what kills most things. There are 5 pinion planetaries that are forged. The cheap ones are PM.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

The GM ones are PM. GM made the part cheaper but still strong, people blindly jumped on the bandwagon believing they "needed" to upgrade a part that doesn't break.
When I googled I actually found that not only are the 5 gears PM but also the carrier where the 4-pinion carrier was nodular.

It is just cheaper they had to add the 5th gear just to get back the strength lost with cheaper manufacturing and might have ended up with a small net gain in strength but again the 4pinion failures are really really rare. Not really a legitimate concern. Now these days with trannies behind LT1s being 20years old with high mileage and maybe subject to debris from other parts failing it might make sense to go ahead and put a new planetary setup in and a GM 5-pinion is fine.