hrcslam

I'm coming up on new valve springs soon; the last set went 16K miles before a spring broke and this set now has 9K on em. I can either go with another set of Howards Cams 98215 Springs that I know works with my build and RPM limits for $120 + $20 for valve stem seals, or I could try out the PRC EHT .650 Springs for $250. So $110 more for springs that are supposed to last 2.5 times longer on aggressive cams (more aggressive than I have). Sounds like a worthy investment to me. The seat pressure is about the same, but open pressure on my cam will go up about 18lbs.

My only question with the PRC kit is, they are made for the LS1. They come with everything but the locks (it says it uses the factory GM valve stem locks). What locks do I need to use an LS1 retainer on an LT1 Valve Stem?

hrcslam

No body huh? O.k....

Since I can't seem to find any relevant info on that, what retainers can I use with dual valve springs? Then I shouldn't have to worry about locks. Or another option is to go with the Lunati Gold Dual kit (same price). But if that's the case, would those springs actually last longer than what I have now? Mine should go 12-15K (the Howards 98215's), could the Lunati Duals last longer? If not, I'd rather spend less you know?

Any one have any input?.....

BALLSS

FWIW I had 918's, not the Howards, bee hive and got about 20k mi before one broke with my cam. XFI 466.

Talked to Lloyd and he recommended the Lunati kit which is a dual spring and includes, locators, retainers, keepers and valve stem seals. Bought the kit from Lloyd. He said I could easily get 50k mi out of these springs with my cam

hrcslam

Your cam has the same lift with less duration as mine. So your lobes are more aggresive. If it'll go 50k on your cam it should do at least that on mine.

Thanks for the input. Looks like I found my next set of springs.

A few questions though. Are you running NSA rockers? What size studs? What RPM are going to?

The style of rocker isn't an issue really. Just curious. But stud size and RPM could be different.

BALLSS

NSA (you will see the ISKY guide plates in my pic)
Comp Pro Mag 1:6 RR
7/16" studs

Yeah XFI grinds have what are called "aggressive" lobes....whatever

I shift (at the track) at 6200-6400 RPM. Cam is well done making power at that RPM. It starts to fall off around 5700 so I go roughly 500 RPM past that on shifts

The Lunatti kit is very nice. Lloyd sells it for what you can get it for elsewhere...but given his advice (free) and his support of the LT1 platform I gave him my business. He even "gave" me valve stem seals as my guides were machined down to .500. Saved me from buying that size. The kit comes with Viton seals for stock heads

hrcslam

What's the installed height with everything in that kit? If it's 1.78 I'm looking at 164lbs on the seat. That's 14lbs higher than I have now. I'm running 3/8 studs and 6800rpm and 150lbs on the seat. That could be an issue. If the retainer sets it up at 1.81 (as advertised) I'll be good at 153lbs on the seat.

BALLSS

I shimmed mine to 1.780, per Lloyd for my set up. email Lloyd and discuss your cam specs and I am sure he will advise what installed height

FWIW my heads already had the spring pockets machined down for previous springs I had which were 1.800" installed. I just shimmed these to get the 1.780

after the spring swap....I could easily tell how tired my 918's had become. Motor just kept "pulling" without nosing over above 5200-5500 like the 918's started to do. FWIW I pulled the 918's at 10k & 15k mi to test spring pressure at installed height and open...within spec. I did not pull every spring. Just one cyl from each side of the motor. Right at 20k mi I did the Lunatti kit and initially the 918's all looked good. I was harvesting my locators, retainers and keepers to sell and when I pulled the retainer off one of the springs..I had a two piece spring. How long had it been broken? Don't know but fortunately no engine damage as a result. The retainer was basically securing the spring. It broke right at the top wind that goes around (under) retainer where the wire goes flat.

hrcslam

Got lucky with that broken spring.

Right now I'm running LE2 heads wit a Lunati cam spec'd by Lloyd. My springs are Howards 98215s, and I broke 4 dampers and 1 spring in 16k miles. No major damage, so I got lucky too. I swapped those for another set of Howard's 98215 springs. My install height right now puts it at 1.725" for a seat pressure of 150lbs, the spring seat base is super thick but I didn't measure it. So I know that I can run that much pressure with my current valve train without issue. I'll order the kit in a few weeks and see what it comes out to installed and adjust it as necessary.

Thanks for the input.

BALLSS

since you have the LE cam & heads, certainly ping Lloyd about spring choice and installed height he recommends. I suspect he will recommend the Lunati springs...

hrcslam

Last I talked to him, he recommended the Patriot Dual Golds. And he asked $450 for the kit (came with everything, not sure what else he added to the kit to increase the cost by $200 though). The Lunati 73925K2 Kit is $216-$250 and also comes with every thing. The Patriot Kit has a lower spring rating though, which would help with my valve train. I'd have to shim them up from 1.8" to 1.76" (.040") to get the seat pressure up though.

I like the Lunati's a bit better. If I can install those at 1.81 or even 1.80" I'd be happy. My seat pressures would go up only a little bit (1# and 6# respectively), but my open pressure would go down by about 30#. If I had to go installed height at 1.78" I'm looking at a seat pressure increase of 12# and I'm not sure how close I am to finding the limits of the 3/8" Rocker studs I have installed. But Open pressure is still reduced by 19#.

Maybe I'm over thinking this. LOL. Right now my open pressure with my cam is 395.2#, as set up, and I'm revving to 6800 RPM. I've driven 25K on this build and the only issue I've had is spring life when it comes to my valve train. If my studs, rockers, rods, etc. can handle 395# wouldn't increasing the seat pressure and reducing the open pressure have a null effect on the reliability of everything else in the system?

BALLSS

Yeah IIRC Lloyd did or still does use the Patriots for some of his stuff. I know he is a Lunati deaaler

Your ? is above my pay grade so just email Lloyd.

I "think" stock heads take a installed height (stock spring) of 1.75". Maybe I am wrong but when I had my heads "ported" at least 10 years ago the shop also machined down the spring pockets so a 1.80" installed height could happen. Those springs were Comp 987 with 10 degree locks.

Since you have LE2's Lloyd would know best on what he does and if the Lunati kit would work will with his cam and at what installed height would be good. I suspect they will be quite good.

Might want to buy a shim kit so you can set whatever installed height you need and assume you have a valve spring height check tool.

I have done springs 4 times over the years with motor in the car. The Crane tool or "Tims" tool makes it pretty simple vs the other type of spring compressors around.

No need to use air in cyl if you bring that cyl to TDC. You can do cyl 1 & 6, rotate engine 90 degrees and do 5 & 8, repeat and 1&4, repeat and 3 & 2

stuffing rags or paper towels in EVERY part of the head with a hole in it and a pencil magnet (keepers) is your friend

hrcslam

I modified one of my spring compressors, works like a champ. Super stable, just tighten the nut. I tried a cheap version of the one you're talking about and it would constantly slip off if it wasn't set up just right, which was a pain to set up.








Everything else you posted I already do. I also replace spark plugs and do a compression check while I'm at it. I'll e-mail Lloyd when I'm closer to buying them, and I'll definitely get a Shim Kit.

BALLSS

whatever tool works for you is good.

My Crane one allows doing both intake & exhaust valves at same time per cyl and keeps both hands free to remove & install the valve spring parts. Back when I bought it for $100 I flinched at that cost but I see now they are about $170...ouch.

I also have the more typical "screw" down type sold at most auto part stores. It works but the Crane one just makes it so much easier.

Again as long as you have something that works for you, great

myltwon

iTrader: (1)

Just be careful alot of the cheap auto part store ones (claw type) will not grip beefier or dual coil springs properly. I used one and had a compressed spring fly out and split my head open. Definitely wear safety glasses when compressing a spring.

hrcslam

This why I have my Frankenstein spring compressor tool now. No splitting of my head though.

hrcslam

Got the springs in today, I attempted to install 1 before I had to go to work. Ugh, even with the +.050 retainers I'm at an installed height of 1.72" (that's 187lbs on the seat) and put's me .055" of coil bind clearance. I don't like it. That's a lot of seat pressure. Compared to my old springs, I'm only gaining 6lbs over the nose, but 34lbs on the seat. Is this something to worry about? Or are these spring pressure o.k for a hyd. roller set up? I did get new ARP studs, so I'm not too worried there as I was using the stock ones with 395# open to 6800rpm. I'm worried about the Cam and rollers.

Also, the locks seem to sit really high on the retainer. The old retainers had the locks sit nice and flush. I tried both sets of locks in three different retainers and they all sit up high like that. Then I tried the locks in my old retainer and they all sit flush. Possible bad batch of retainers??

BALLSS

I suspect your +.050 retainers keep the locks up slightly vs the normal retainer

For my motor Lloyd said to set them up at 1.780" installed height. I don't know the math for what that makes my open & seat pressure. Since my spring pockets had already been machined down for other springs at 1.800 installed height, setting these at 1.780 with standard retainers was no problem for me using .020 shims

Lunati publishes:

Seat: installed at 1.810=153 lbs
Open: 1.150=400 lbs

EDIT:

Lloyd said at a 1.780" installed height the spring pressure is (with my cam lift .570/.565):

155-160 seat
380 open

hrcslam

1.78 installed height comes out to 164# on the seat. Take away run in, and that puts it right at 155-160# on the seat.

Yes, the +.050" locks move the locks up the valve stem by .050". The retainer should follow, instead the retainer only moves up the valve stem .010" while the locks do move up .050".

Here's the New retainers with the locks that came with the kit.






Lunati dual Valve Springs LT1 Kit,

The pictures in my last post you can see the Lunati Dual Valve Springs with the retainer it came with and Howards Cams +.050" Locks- these seem to stick up about .090" measured. Behind that you can see the Howards Cams Springs (98215's) with it's retainer and standard locks, and they sit flush.

I took a new Lunati Retainer and measured it's valve hole, and it measures exactly the same as the retainer that came off the Howards Cams Springs. So I checked the Lunati Locks vs the +.050 and the ones I took off the car. The Lunati's are smaller. They have .005" less outside diameter installed on the valve, making them sit deeper in the retainer. Lunati's retainer is also shorter than the one I pulled off, that further exaggerates the protrusion of the locks out the top of the retainer. I did confirm all the locks are 11/32" and they all sit flush on the valve stem. But the Lunati locks come out just a tad thinner on the stem installed. I also verified all the parts were the correct part number (on the packaging).





Lunati Dual Valve Spring Retainer with Howards Cams +.050" locks





Lunati Dual Valve Spring Retainer with Lunati standard locks.





Lunati Dual Valve Spring Retainer with Howards Cams Standard Locks

So since the +.050" locks stick out so much, they end up pushing the retainer down. As installed, the +.050" lock gives me only +.010" more spring installed height over the locks that came with the kit. That's 189# on the seat as installed with everything in the kit vs 185# on the seat with the +.050" locks.

Seems high to me. It's frustrating. According to Lunati, this is a drop in kit. Not machine work needed. So according to Lunati, I can install this on an LT1 and run it no problem. With 189# on the Seat? On a Hydraulic Roller?

BALLSS

IDK but it seems your .050 retainer from the Howard springs makes the installed height only .010 higher, not .050 higher

I believe stock AL heads install height is around 1.750 so trying to get a installed height of 1.8xx would require the spring pockets to be machined down so after installing the spring locator, spring, retainer/locks you would get 1.800". Otherwise any aftermarket spring that is 1.800" install height will be installed shorter thus upping the seat & open pressure

Email Lloyd with your ?, you have his heads/cam so he should be able to advise how to set the Lunati springs up with your setup.

You have a valve spring height measure tool. What height do you measure without any shims using all the Lunati stuff?

1.750-1.758??

are the locks that are for the .050 retainers 10 degree or 7 degree?

obviously the degree of the keepers need to be the same as the retainer for them to sit right in the retainer

hrcslam

Yes, the +.050 locks only give me +.010. Not worth putting them on IMO with them sitting so much higher on the retainer and me expecting to reach 6800rpm.

No shims any where. All are 11/32" 7° retainers and locks. Installed height is 1.71". I think that short install height is caused by the shorter retainers that came with the springs. And my other set of retainers that are taller are for single springs. Ugh.

I e-mailed Lloyd. I'm really only worried about the seat pressure. As installed with only the stuff from the kit I get no coil bind (0.050" clearance). My open pressure is 400lbs with my cam (5 lbs higher than my Howard's cams springs), so I'm not worried about that.

Logic tells me that I'm already at 395lbs open pressure that 400lbs should be negligible (I was using the stock rocker arm studs with the Howard's Cams 98215 springs and am installing ARP studs with the Lunati springs so I'm not worried about that either), and if my cam, lifters, rods and rockers were taking the 395lbs before to 6800 with only spring service life being the issue, that 189lbs on the seat should be a none issues.

After run in I should have 180-185lbs on the seat and 390-395lbs open.

I'm wondering if I'm worried about nothing.