lloyd elliott
03-19-2006, 09:18 PM
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If you do the le1 cam and le2 heads lloyd calls that the le1.5. He recommended the set up for my 383 I'm building for drivability. Then I said the hell with it and went with the le2. As soon as I have numbers I'll post them.
03-28-2006, 08:57 PM
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if you are thinking of getting your heads ported....you can't go wrong with lloyd...i just got mine in today...his work looks great and he has excellent customer service....i can't wait to get them on the motor and back into the car again
03-29-2006, 08:23 PM
#67
Originally Posted by ls1charged
i know this is alil big to ask for but, just out of curiosity does anyone have any sound clips or video's of what there cars sound like with any of the LE kits? if nobody does its not a big deal just though id ask. thanks
Bret
04-06-2006, 09:55 PM
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How much RWHP should a 95 Vette 6 speed 3.45 rear, put down, with the LE2 package, LT's, 1.6 RR, K&N w cut lid, x pipe, no cats, and muffler eliminators & dyno tune?
Is the intake really worth porting? My understanding is it flows pretty well, and not a restriction until you get to around 500FWHP.
I have heard LE's current LE2 heads flow around 290, can anyone verify?
How much more do LE2, LT4 or TF heads flow, VS LE2 LT1's?
Does TF make an LT1 version or just the TF LT4 heads that require the LT4 intake?
If Edelbrock comes out with their Airgap LT4 intake, this won't be much of a concern, but would like to know.
Is the intake really worth porting? My understanding is it flows pretty well, and not a restriction until you get to around 500FWHP.
I have heard LE's current LE2 heads flow around 290, can anyone verify?
How much more do LE2, LT4 or TF heads flow, VS LE2 LT1's?
Does TF make an LT1 version or just the TF LT4 heads that require the LT4 intake?
If Edelbrock comes out with their Airgap LT4 intake, this won't be much of a concern, but would like to know.
04-06-2006, 10:04 PM
#69
LT4 heads dont flow worth a **** for how much u pay for them.
i know on Lloyd's website it says that LE2 flow about 270cfm. im not sure if there better then that now, you would have to ask someone who has gotten there heads done by him recently.
with the the LE2 package i could see a vette making anywhere from 380-420RWHP.
i know on Lloyd's website it says that LE2 flow about 270cfm. im not sure if there better then that now, you would have to ask someone who has gotten there heads done by him recently.
with the the LE2 package i could see a vette making anywhere from 380-420RWHP.
04-06-2006, 10:15 PM
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I ment ported LT4s or TF vs ported LT1s. If LE is getting 290 w LT1's and 300 with LT4/TF, then to me it isn't worth getting LT4s, but if LT1s are around 270, then.....maybe.
Someone on another forum that supposedly knows LE, sayed his current LT1 heads flow around 290, just trying to verify.
Someone on another forum that supposedly knows LE, sayed his current LT1 heads flow around 290, just trying to verify.
04-07-2006, 08:08 AM
#74
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Flow #'s Here is an email that I sent to a customer regarding his flow #'s on his TFS heads that I did for him . . . . . . it will help explain flow #'s a lil more and why you CAN'T judge heads by this.
As I tell EVERYONE about flow #'s . . . . .
flow benches vary so a different bench can show as much as 20 cfm
higher/lower flow #'s.
flow #'s are what "sells" heads so EVERYONE inflates and lies about
them making them impossible to compare EVEN IF all benched where
equal
flow #'s are a SMALL part of a working cylinder head and port shape
and measurement in key areas are FAR more important. The flow #'s are
just along for the ride.
that being said . . . . . . here are the flow #'s . . . . . .
.2 143/110
.3 198/143
.4 245/176
.5 280/201
.6 295/217
650 298/224
.7 299/229
I do not include flow charts for the reasons mentioned and a flow chart just gives other people a platform to judge other cylinder heads by and "assume" that the higher flowing cylinder head will make more power. Since people lie about the #'s and benches vary, you CAN'T compare 28" flow #'s.
Add in the fact that a 28" flow test is USELESS when finding out how a head works since the head will NOT see anything like a 28" flow test. A running engine receives air in gulps (not a steady suction) with constantly changing valve lift and depressions. The port is constantly seeing different things and these things are NOTHING as mild as a 28" flow test. A 28" flow test is at a steady suction with the valve at one lift point and the air is moving at a steady rate that is MUCH slower than it will on an engine. You have to develop your own tests to design a working port and that involves MUCH higher depressions to make the air move at speeds more like it will see in the engine. A port that flows well at 28" can turn pretty ugly when raising the depression 2-3 times that. It is tough finding someone with abench that can even handle this but when you find out what "works", the cars make some crazy power even though the 28" flow #'s are the same or even less.
There are some "valve popping" tests that are done to see how well the port recovers from valves opening/closing and depression going WAY up and down. This shows that the port has the proper taper and the air is making slow and steady velocity changes.
There are certain measurements that you want in certain areas to make the port "work" and "feed" certain cubvic inches to a certain RPM. A 28" flow test can show a port to work well but when doing the tests I have mentioned, you can find lots of problems.
A lot of the things mentioned here are not gonna show up at 28" and a few of these things actually flow LESS when testing at 28" even though the port is actually better. This just explains why a 28" flow test is USELESS other that for sales propaganda. 99% of the public will look at a flow sheet showing better 28" flow #'s than my heads and think they will make more power but these other tests would show a different story and then when bolted on the car, you would definitely see a different story.
FWIW, the flow #'s from my LT1 castings with 2.00/1.056 valves are in the 275 range on the intake but anyone that read this post and understands any part of it will understand that this # means "nothing".
Lloyd Elliott
972-617-5671
Eportworks.com
As I tell EVERYONE about flow #'s . . . . .
flow benches vary so a different bench can show as much as 20 cfm
higher/lower flow #'s.
flow #'s are what "sells" heads so EVERYONE inflates and lies about
them making them impossible to compare EVEN IF all benched where
equal
flow #'s are a SMALL part of a working cylinder head and port shape
and measurement in key areas are FAR more important. The flow #'s are
just along for the ride.
that being said . . . . . . here are the flow #'s . . . . . .
.2 143/110
.3 198/143
.4 245/176
.5 280/201
.6 295/217
650 298/224
.7 299/229
I do not include flow charts for the reasons mentioned and a flow chart just gives other people a platform to judge other cylinder heads by and "assume" that the higher flowing cylinder head will make more power. Since people lie about the #'s and benches vary, you CAN'T compare 28" flow #'s.
Add in the fact that a 28" flow test is USELESS when finding out how a head works since the head will NOT see anything like a 28" flow test. A running engine receives air in gulps (not a steady suction) with constantly changing valve lift and depressions. The port is constantly seeing different things and these things are NOTHING as mild as a 28" flow test. A 28" flow test is at a steady suction with the valve at one lift point and the air is moving at a steady rate that is MUCH slower than it will on an engine. You have to develop your own tests to design a working port and that involves MUCH higher depressions to make the air move at speeds more like it will see in the engine. A port that flows well at 28" can turn pretty ugly when raising the depression 2-3 times that. It is tough finding someone with abench that can even handle this but when you find out what "works", the cars make some crazy power even though the 28" flow #'s are the same or even less.
There are some "valve popping" tests that are done to see how well the port recovers from valves opening/closing and depression going WAY up and down. This shows that the port has the proper taper and the air is making slow and steady velocity changes.
There are certain measurements that you want in certain areas to make the port "work" and "feed" certain cubvic inches to a certain RPM. A 28" flow test can show a port to work well but when doing the tests I have mentioned, you can find lots of problems.
A lot of the things mentioned here are not gonna show up at 28" and a few of these things actually flow LESS when testing at 28" even though the port is actually better. This just explains why a 28" flow test is USELESS other that for sales propaganda. 99% of the public will look at a flow sheet showing better 28" flow #'s than my heads and think they will make more power but these other tests would show a different story and then when bolted on the car, you would definitely see a different story.
FWIW, the flow #'s from my LT1 castings with 2.00/1.056 valves are in the 275 range on the intake but anyone that read this post and understands any part of it will understand that this # means "nothing".
Lloyd Elliott
972-617-5671
Eportworks.com
04-07-2006, 09:32 AM
#75
thanks for the info, i wasnt aware of that.
i know alot of companys will flow there heads at different #'s other then 28" so that there heads will flow more then the competitor, because like u mentioned everyone is fixed on how well the head flows in CFM's, i know thats what i looked for, but i remember i kept hearing about "lloyd elliot did my heads and they were amazing" so i did some searching and alot of people on LS1tech and camaroz28 got there heads done by u, and i havent heard one thing bad about u out of all the people iv talked to, i mean look at this thread i didnt think it was going to make 4pages, but i guess there must be a reason for that.
i know alot of companys will flow there heads at different #'s other then 28" so that there heads will flow more then the competitor, because like u mentioned everyone is fixed on how well the head flows in CFM's, i know thats what i looked for, but i remember i kept hearing about "lloyd elliot did my heads and they were amazing" so i did some searching and alot of people on LS1tech and camaroz28 got there heads done by u, and i havent heard one thing bad about u out of all the people iv talked to, i mean look at this thread i didnt think it was going to make 4pages, but i guess there must be a reason for that.
04-07-2006, 06:59 PM
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LLoyd I understand and agree with you, but the problem is what other empirical way can you judge a head, other than bolting them on?
Maybe a better question for you, is how much more RWHP will an LT4 or TFS LE2 head typically make VS. an LT1 LE2, assuming 350CI and all else equal?
Maybe a better question for you, is how much more RWHP will an LT4 or TFS LE2 head typically make VS. an LT1 LE2, assuming 350CI and all else equal?
04-08-2006, 09:12 AM
#77
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As far as comparing results of the heads mentioned, they all have different characteristics and the right choice will be based on budget, gear, stall, cubic inch, RPM, etc. The TFS heads (handported with larger valves installed with a GOOD valve job) will make the most HP but might not actually accelerate the car best depending on the exact set up.
As far as comparing ported heads, the average person can't judge them and the ONLY way to compare them is to do a back to back test bewteen the two heads and see what the dyno and track shows. Most do not have the budget to do this and only wanna buy one set of heads so they wanna make a good choice the first time.
Anyone can put a sales pitch on their head and make it seem like the best heads ever produced. A truly "good" head will sell itself from the results others are getting from it on comparable set ups.
28" flow #'s, runner volumes, swirl #'s along with terms like "high velocity, low lift flow #'s, mid lift #'s, reverse flowed, chambers reshaped to promote a more efficient burn and less detonation, etc, etc" are just buzz words used to sell the heads and these words can be used on ANY head since the consumer has no way of confirming these things and if so, what are they even looking for in these tests.
I am not saying these tests are useless but how can the average person verify the results, how do you know what to compare them to and what are you even measureing and what effect does it have on how the engine is gonna run?
People that call up and want a "high velocity" head from me will get asked "What kinda FPS are you looking for? Where are you measureing it at?" They then realize they might not be armed with enough info in these areas.
I am not sure why you wanna speed up the air in a 23 degree SB Chevy head with standard pushrod location and cause turbulence to happen at a sooner depression but some think they want a "higher velocity" head. The "higher velocity" heads are usually the ones with less portwork done, LOL and end up making less power although since it is just a term used to sell heads, a head that is sold as a "high velocity" head might actually make good power since it usually is just a sales term and not anything to do with the velocity in the head.
The people that really understand what makes a head "work" are either doing their own heads or are paying people like Trevor Johnson or Air Flow Development to do their heads. The people with out that knowlede or with out that budget are forced to weed through the crap and hopefully make a good choice. Just find the best porter that you can afford and that you trust and heave them do the work for you. If you do not have a porter picked yet, just base your opinion on how similarly built cars perform with their heads.
Lloyd Elliott
972-617-5671
Eportworks.com
As far as comparing ported heads, the average person can't judge them and the ONLY way to compare them is to do a back to back test bewteen the two heads and see what the dyno and track shows. Most do not have the budget to do this and only wanna buy one set of heads so they wanna make a good choice the first time.
Anyone can put a sales pitch on their head and make it seem like the best heads ever produced. A truly "good" head will sell itself from the results others are getting from it on comparable set ups.
28" flow #'s, runner volumes, swirl #'s along with terms like "high velocity, low lift flow #'s, mid lift #'s, reverse flowed, chambers reshaped to promote a more efficient burn and less detonation, etc, etc" are just buzz words used to sell the heads and these words can be used on ANY head since the consumer has no way of confirming these things and if so, what are they even looking for in these tests.
I am not saying these tests are useless but how can the average person verify the results, how do you know what to compare them to and what are you even measureing and what effect does it have on how the engine is gonna run?
People that call up and want a "high velocity" head from me will get asked "What kinda FPS are you looking for? Where are you measureing it at?" They then realize they might not be armed with enough info in these areas.
I am not sure why you wanna speed up the air in a 23 degree SB Chevy head with standard pushrod location and cause turbulence to happen at a sooner depression but some think they want a "higher velocity" head. The "higher velocity" heads are usually the ones with less portwork done, LOL and end up making less power although since it is just a term used to sell heads, a head that is sold as a "high velocity" head might actually make good power since it usually is just a sales term and not anything to do with the velocity in the head.
The people that really understand what makes a head "work" are either doing their own heads or are paying people like Trevor Johnson or Air Flow Development to do their heads. The people with out that knowlede or with out that budget are forced to weed through the crap and hopefully make a good choice. Just find the best porter that you can afford and that you trust and heave them do the work for you. If you do not have a porter picked yet, just base your opinion on how similarly built cars perform with their heads.
Lloyd Elliott
972-617-5671
Eportworks.com
Last edited by NightTrain66; 04-08-2006 at 10:15 AM.
04-08-2006, 10:03 AM
#78
Originally Posted by NightTrain66
The people with out that knowlede or with out that budget are forced to weed through the crap and hopefully make a good choice. Just find the best porter that you can afford and that you trust and heave them do the work for you. If you do not have a porter picked yet, just base your opinion on how similarly built cars perform with their heads.
04-08-2006, 07:53 PM
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See what I mean ls1charged? the guy knows ALOT. I'm still waiting on my shortblock to get here. I figure by the middle to end of june I'll have it running and I will try to post a vid also.
3,800lbs fully dressed 95 Z28 running 11.4xs N/A slapping down what ever it takes to get the job done!