electric wp? realistic numbers
02-26-2007, 04:19 PM
#23
Originally Posted by LT1Falcon
lol, ill say it again, i still dont get how the electric motor isnt using any energy. energy just doesnt pump into the motor from nowhere, its got to come from the alternator. the more drain there is on the alternator, the more it tries to hold the pulley back, which results in more energy being held back from the crankshaft. now if someone said there is less friction in an electric pump, i would understand. im sure there is an advantage somewhere in the system.
The amount of load doesn't slow down the alternator. It either supplied enough juice or it doesn't.
02-26-2007, 04:24 PM
#24
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LT1Falcon
lol, ill say it again, i still dont get how the electric motor isnt using any energy. energy just doesnt pump into the motor from nowhere, its got to come from the alternator. the more drain there is on the alternator, the more it tries to hold the pulley back, which results in more energy being held back from the crankshaft. now if someone said there is less friction in an electric pump, i would understand. im sure there is an advantage somewhere in the system.
Where did you come up with that hypothesis. Electricity has nothing to do with pully's and cranks....Well not al leats in the internal cubustion engine Alternator takes over after the car is started, ignition, stereo, power windows, power locks, all the crap on your dash, injectors, A/C.... no pully's no crank. The crank is driven by explosions in your piston chamber
02-26-2007, 04:40 PM
#27
The increase in current draw on an electrical system from an EWP does not cause the alternator pulley to have more drag on the engine, period. Like Justin00SS stated "it either has enough juice or it doesn't."
02-26-2007, 04:52 PM
#28
Originally Posted by 96capricemgr
They use less energy by moving vastly LESS water. The 38gpm ratings are unrestricted and the stock pump at 4000rpms with the restriction of pumping through the engine is 40gpm.
For the mostpart I trust ABA383 as an intelligent honest guy who does things right so when he says he gained 9-10hp I believe him, but one dyno owner I spoke too said more like 7-8 , a dyno can easily show 3-4hp different back too back so I would not say the numbers I am posting make ABA383 wrong.
I paid too download an SAE document on the LT1 cooling system, maybe not the best $12 I ever spent but was interesting nonetheless.
With an electric WP I would not pull the belt at the strip due too demand, pulling the belt is worth about .1. Meaning for the street I will keep my mechanical and when I want that extra .1 I can pull the belt which is free and is no compromise too reliability.
For the mostpart I trust ABA383 as an intelligent honest guy who does things right so when he says he gained 9-10hp I believe him, but one dyno owner I spoke too said more like 7-8 , a dyno can easily show 3-4hp different back too back so I would not say the numbers I am posting make ABA383 wrong.
I paid too download an SAE document on the LT1 cooling system, maybe not the best $12 I ever spent but was interesting nonetheless.
With an electric WP I would not pull the belt at the strip due too demand, pulling the belt is worth about .1. Meaning for the street I will keep my mechanical and when I want that extra .1 I can pull the belt which is free and is no compromise too reliability.
--Alan
02-26-2007, 04:56 PM
#29
TECH Resident
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lol i hate to be on a side by myself but im afraid that an alternators drag on the motor is affected by the cars requirement for electricity. beleive it or not. yes, you can spin an alternator by hand, but for one, you are spinning it at low rpms, and 2 it is not drawing much current. lets say your running a very minimal amount of electrical components. where is the rest of the "juice" going. nowhere, because its not making it. some goes to the battery, but once it is full, it doesnt keep charging it. my dad will taught me this theory, and hes an electrical engineer
02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
#30
Originally Posted by LT1Falcon
lol i hate to be on a side by myself but im afraid that an alternators drag on the motor is affected by the cars requirement for electricity. beleive it or not. yes, you can spin an alternator by hand, but for one, you are spinning it at low rpms, and 2 it is not drawing much current. lets say your running a very minimal amount of electrical components. where is the rest of the "juice" going. nowhere, because its not making it. some goes to the battery, but once it is full, it doesnt keep charging it. my dad will taught me this theory, and hes an electrical engineer
A cars alternator produces a set about of electricity (amps) at a certain rpm. Spinning it faster then that will not make it produce anymore. Just like spinning a motor faster and faster does not mean it will make more hp.
The only drag from and alternator is if you went with a heavy heavy duty one for putting out alot more amps then then stock. Like a 300amp alt or something.
That would mean there is more are more metal coils for the alt to spin through the magnets to create hp and more metal means its heavier and harder to turn.
But the alternator doesn't get harder to turn because of the power being drained from it. It either has the juice or it doesn't.
02-26-2007, 05:04 PM
#31
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LT1Falcon
lol i hate to be on a side by myself but im afraid that an alternators drag on the motor is affected by the cars requirement for electricity. beleive it or not. yes, you can spin an alternator by hand, but for one, you are spinning it at low rpms, and 2 it is not drawing much current. lets say your running a very minimal amount of electrical components. where is the rest of the "juice" going. nowhere, because its not making it. some goes to the battery, but once it is full, it doesnt keep charging it. my dad will taught me this theory, and hes an electrical engineer
Last edited by streetwarrior96; 02-26-2007 at 05:10 PM.
02-26-2007, 05:07 PM
#32
Teching In
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Increasing the amp draw on the alternator circuit causes the alternator to become "harder" to spin thus drawing more power from the engine. This is specified by the laws of thermodynamics. Think about it. If what some people were saying was true, that an alternator does not get "harder" to spin based on the current draw, then I could have a 5 horse power motor turning an alternator driving a 9000 Amp 12 Volt motor that makes 100KW(135 HP).
So yes, an electric water pump does put load on the engine. However it frees horsepower by not moving as much water.
The problem with water pumps is that they need to spin fast enough at IDLE so that they can keep the car cooled. That’s fine, but they don't have a variable ratio drive. What this means that at 1600 RPM (twice Idle) the pump is spinning twice the speed and using twice the energy. But the engine’s demand for coolant hasn’t increased by double. then by 6000rpm the Pump may actually not be moving water very efficiently at all (generally impeller designs that are efficient at 800 rpm are not efficient at 6000rpm) it's probably cavitating pretty badly. This is the trade off that all your belt driven accessories have. They must spin fast enough to provide adequate service at idle but that means they are probably not very efficient at 6K.
The Electric water pump solves this by always spinning at the happy medium. Faster than idle but still in it’s efficiency range.
Also Notice that on ws6.com that the dyno run with the electric WP shows that the HP difference increases directly with RPM. This is because the EWP isn't more efficiant at lower RPM that the stanrd pump, but at much higher RPM.
How an Alternator works
-------------------------------------------------
Notice that to maintain voltage in the face of increase amp draw the internal rotor’s magnetic field is increased thus increasing the magnetic forces on input shaft increase.
So yes, an electric water pump does put load on the engine. However it frees horsepower by not moving as much water.
The problem with water pumps is that they need to spin fast enough at IDLE so that they can keep the car cooled. That’s fine, but they don't have a variable ratio drive. What this means that at 1600 RPM (twice Idle) the pump is spinning twice the speed and using twice the energy. But the engine’s demand for coolant hasn’t increased by double. then by 6000rpm the Pump may actually not be moving water very efficiently at all (generally impeller designs that are efficient at 800 rpm are not efficient at 6000rpm) it's probably cavitating pretty badly. This is the trade off that all your belt driven accessories have. They must spin fast enough to provide adequate service at idle but that means they are probably not very efficient at 6K.
The Electric water pump solves this by always spinning at the happy medium. Faster than idle but still in it’s efficiency range.
Also Notice that on ws6.com that the dyno run with the electric WP shows that the HP difference increases directly with RPM. This is because the EWP isn't more efficiant at lower RPM that the stanrd pump, but at much higher RPM.
How an Alternator works
-------------------------------------------------
Suppose we have alternator-spinning at 2000 rpm. We have it attached to some electrical-load drawing say 10 amps at 12 volts. Let's assume; that the rotor is using 1 amp at 4 volts. Suppose we increase the electrical load: so that we now need 15 amps. Due to internal electrical resistance of the whole system, the voltage falls to 11 volts. To get the output voltage back up to 12 volts we must increase the rotor magnetic field intensity. So we adjust the rotor voltage up to 6 volts and in doing so, we find the rotor now drawing 1.5 amps of current. This increased current results in increased magnetic field which at 2000 rpm gives us an output of 15 amps at 12 volts. It is the job of the regulator to make these adjustments quickly and automatically.
02-26-2007, 05:09 PM
#33
To produce more amps you need more metal. More metal equals heavier and harder to turn durr.
But 140amp alternator is still a 140am alt and doesn't get harder to turn as the load is increased.
Besides. Its not going to strain the alt anyway. Its gonna put a load on the bat first.
What's the first thing that starts getting drained when the alt goes out? The battery. If the alt is giving the charge then it gets it from the battery.
But 140amp alternator is still a 140am alt and doesn't get harder to turn as the load is increased.
Besides. Its not going to strain the alt anyway. Its gonna put a load on the bat first.
What's the first thing that starts getting drained when the alt goes out? The battery. If the alt is giving the charge then it gets it from the battery.
02-26-2007, 05:13 PM
#34
Launching!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when your have 2 different guys, with 2 differant body styles, that put up numbers with lt1 power,like you two have i sit back and learn. you guys keep posting. i don,t know what wp i am going to run with my 95 z28. ooh ,bye the way thanks
02-26-2007, 05:15 PM
#35
TECH Resident
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jvanleuvan
Increasing the amp draw on the alternator circuit causes the alternator to become "harder" to spin thus drawing more power from the engine. This is specified by the laws of thermodynamics. Think about it. If what some people were saying was true, that an alternator does not get "harder" to spin based on the current draw, then I could have a 5 horse power motor turning an alternator driving a 9000 Amp 12 Volt motor that makes 100KW(135 HP).
So yes, an electric water pump does put load on the engine. However it frees horsepower by not moving as much water.
The problem with water pumps is that they need to spin fast enough at IDLE so that they can keep the car cooled. That’s fine, but they don't have a variable ratio drive. What this means that at 1600 RPM (twice Idle) the pump is spinning twice the speed and using twice the energy. But the engine’s demand for coolant hasn’t increased by double. then by 6000rpm the Pump may actually not be moving water very efficiently at all (generally impeller designs that are efficient at 800 rpm are not efficient at 6000rpm) it's probably cavitating pretty badly. This is the trade off that all your belt driven accessories have. They must spin fast enough to provide adequate service at idle but that means they are probably not very efficient at 6K.
The Electric water pump solves this by always spinning at the happy medium. Faster than idle but still in it’s efficiency range.
Also Notice that on ws6.com that the dyno run with the electric WP shows that the HP difference increases directly with RPM. This is because the EWP isn't more efficiant at lower RPM that the stanrd pump, but at much higher RPM.
How an Alternator works
-------------------------------------------------
Notice that to maintain voltage in the face of increase amp draw the internal rotor’s magnetic field is increased thus increasing the magnetic forces on input shaft increase.
So yes, an electric water pump does put load on the engine. However it frees horsepower by not moving as much water.
The problem with water pumps is that they need to spin fast enough at IDLE so that they can keep the car cooled. That’s fine, but they don't have a variable ratio drive. What this means that at 1600 RPM (twice Idle) the pump is spinning twice the speed and using twice the energy. But the engine’s demand for coolant hasn’t increased by double. then by 6000rpm the Pump may actually not be moving water very efficiently at all (generally impeller designs that are efficient at 800 rpm are not efficient at 6000rpm) it's probably cavitating pretty badly. This is the trade off that all your belt driven accessories have. They must spin fast enough to provide adequate service at idle but that means they are probably not very efficient at 6K.
The Electric water pump solves this by always spinning at the happy medium. Faster than idle but still in it’s efficiency range.
Also Notice that on ws6.com that the dyno run with the electric WP shows that the HP difference increases directly with RPM. This is because the EWP isn't more efficiant at lower RPM that the stanrd pump, but at much higher RPM.
How an Alternator works
-------------------------------------------------
Notice that to maintain voltage in the face of increase amp draw the internal rotor’s magnetic field is increased thus increasing the magnetic forces on input shaft increase.
THANK YOU. finally someone with some electrical sense. i was looking for a link to explain this better but he summed it up for me
02-26-2007, 06:24 PM
#38
TECH Resident
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, West Virginia
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 96capricemgr
I would guess most of you have jump started a vehicle at some point. Ever notice that when the final connection is made the idle on the chargING vehicle hickups a little???
What is that if not response too extra LOAD?
What is that if not response too extra LOAD?
02-26-2007, 06:46 PM
#39
Originally Posted by 96capricemgr
I would guess most of you have jump started a vehicle at some point. Ever notice that when the final connection is made the idle on the chargING vehicle hickups a little???
What is that if not response too extra LOAD?
What is that if not response too extra LOAD?
lol