Vortech vs Procharger? I Searched and Researched!
10-27-2007, 11:34 AM
#41
The TA that I bought has the vortech s-trim. At 6lbs it's making 482 rwhp without an intercooler. The original owner did a great job setting this car up and getting a great tune which is most important. The next thing I want to do is an aftercooler and I have a 7" crank pulley that I'll eventually slap on. Only thing is, in order to run vortech's aftercooler, I'll have to buy different headers because the JBA's that I have won't allow it to fit.
10-27-2007, 03:37 PM
#44
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Your #'s are my goal in the long run I am looking for 700-750 rwhp ultimately I know it wont happen with my bottom end but I have seen people get 500-525 rwhp with my bottom end.
Do you have any track or street vids ? Can you post em? Thanks
That goes for anyone with forced inductions LTX cars post vids if you got em I would love to see em
10-28-2007, 12:52 AM
#46
I think the OP will be fine with either product, I'm surprised, however, to see a few people actually vouching for vortech. Usually it seems that everyone is ******* them and pulling for ati.
10-28-2007, 03:41 PM
#47
So the self contained blowers get hot easily? I do not see any SC blowers used for road racing applications so I am starting to believe what you say is true! My car will never see traffic I just wonder which makes more proven power a self contained or oil tapped D-1 or Vortech T-trim?
This is good info guys sorry I have been out of town I would like to see this thread keep going I am taking every ones experiences in my choice thanks.
My car will never see traffic I just wonder which makes more proven power a self contained or oil tapped D-1 or Vortech T-trim? This is good info guys sorry I have been out of town I would like to see this thread keep going I am taking every ones experiences in my choice thanks.
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com...Car.php?car=40 Bob
10-28-2007, 03:48 PM
#48
ProCharger Superchargers
Self-Contained Oiling from the Innovator and Leader
ATI’s self-contained (SC) ProCharger models are the first and only gear-driven centrifugal superchargers to feature self-lubrication, and contain the industry’s most advanced technology. In addition to the patented self-contained oiling design, SC ProChargers also feature the highest step-up ratio, exclusive billet impellers, and the industry's only billet gearcases for superior rigidity, sealing and appearance. These proven self-contained ProChargers, introduced in 1999, were designed specifically for internal lubrication and have become the industry standard.
The best-selling P-1SC-1 shares many of the design elements which deliver the record-setting durability and performance of ProCharger competition superchargers, and is also quiet and street legal. With their rugged design, these ProChargers are the only self-contained superchargers durable enough to be backed with a 3 year warranty and powerful enough to harness the benefits of intercooling.
The patented SC design eliminates the need for oil lines and punching a hole in the oil pan, thanks to an exclusive oil pump. This pump aerates the oil to create the oil mist lubrication required for the ProCharger’s precision bearings and gears. This oil pump (aeration pump) does not require priming at start-up, and oil changes are required only every 6,000 miles. Additionally, instead of being forced to utilize engine oil or the grease in sealed bearings, SC ProChargers are lubricated with an extremely high quality synthetic oil which is specifically engineered for high speed use, and produces the least frictional heat and parasitic load. The self-contained design also eliminates the heat that is transferred to a supercharger by engine oil in oil-fed applications, and avoids the risk of clogged supercharger oil lines, oil drainage problems, or engine oil leakage.
By combining advanced supercharger transmission design with the highest quality oil, SC ProChargers produce a larger net power gain because they run cooler and consume less power than comparable oil-fed designs. SC ProChargers also feature an internal step-up ratio of 4.10:1 for improved belt tracking and traction, and maximum low-rpm boost and power.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
Intercooled Supercharging
ATI introduced the industry's first intercooled supercharger system nearly 3 years before its nearest competitor, and is still the only company that offers intercooling as an integrated solution rather than just an after-thought. Intercooled centrifugal supercharging is simply the most sophisticated, reliable and cost effective method for substantially increasing the horsepower and torque of your vehicle. Because intercooling removes heat, increases air/fuel density and allows the use of factory (or close to factory) ignition timing, a well-designed intercooled supercharger system will produce far larger power gains than a non-intercooled supercharger system, especially for fuel-injected motors running pump gas. And after three years of saying that intercooling doesn't work, even our competitors now agree with this.
The Fundamental Solution
All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi. At the same boost level, an Intercooled ProCharger operates at only 28° above ambient! This tremendous advantage from cooler air is just like the difference between driving your car on a cold winter's day vs the blistering heat of summer! Thats a real advantage that yields real performance. It helps to understand that no supercharger alone will ever begin to match the system efficiency of an intercooled supercharger system. This is simply because compressing air creates heat, as dictated by the laws of physics (Boyle's Gas Law). Even in the case of "perfect compression" (100% adiabatic efficiency, which is physically impossible without an intercooler - see chart), air temperature would increase by approximately 71° at only 8 psi, while the lower (40-80%) efficiencies of all non-intercooled superchargers produce substantially higher temperatures. Intercooled ProCharger systems are the fundamental, OEM solution - because not only is less heat created when the air is compressed, the majority of this heat is actually removed through intercooling.
The bottom line is that intercooled boost is substantially more powerful and safe for your engine than hot, non-intercooled boost. Now that technology has developed to the point that gear-driven superchargers are powerful enough to reliably blow through an intercooler, it simply doesn't make sense not to intercool, especially for fuel injected applications running pump gas. In fact, for high compression engines or continuous duty applications, such as marine or towing, intercooling is absolutely essential for reliability.
In basic terms, compressing air creates heat, while intercooling removes heat. The illustration above may help to further explain the tremendous impact of intercooling upon supercharger system efficiency and engine intake temperatures:
Benefits of Intercooling
Greatly Reduced Intake Temperature
An 85° - 200° drop in air temperature (dependent upon application) results in a more dense, powerful fuel/air charge, greatly reduces exposure to detonation, and virtually eliminates the "power fade" felt in back-to-back runs and extended pulls without intercooling
Full Timing
This reduction in temperature allows you to run factory (or close to factory) timing, and avoids the substantial horsepower loss inflicted by excessively retarded ignition timing
More Low-End Boost and Horsepower
The intercooler also acts as a passive wastegate, flattening the boost curve at higher rpm's and allowing more boost to be dialed in at lower rpm's
An Expanded Power Band
Full timing and forced induction keep the engine pulling hard to the redline
More Boost
Not only will you experience the above benefits at any boost level, you can also safely run substantially more boost when intercooled!
Reliable High Performance
Clearly, the only type of performance that matters is reliable performance, and detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. The boost range for reliable performance, without detonation, can be determined by looking at the type of supercharger technology being considered, and the compression ratio of the motor. With a lower compression ratio, an engine can safely handle more boost, everything else being equal. Similarly, if the temperature of the compressed air is lower, an engine will have a much higher detonation threshold (the point at which fuel ignites without a spark), and will be able to safely handle more boost. The chart below helps to illustrate how the overall efficiency of the entire supercharger system can be increased by both leading edge supercharger efficiency and the use of intercooling. Simply locate an engine's compression ratio at the bottom of the chart and trace upwards to determine the maximum reliable boost level. The amount of heat produced (adiabatic effiency) by each supercharging technology is what determines the boost limitation. While gear-driven centrifugal is clearly the superior supercharger technology, it is also clear that the biggest benefit comes from intercooling. These calculations assume moderate timing, 92 octane pump gas, and a good supply of fuel to the cylinders. As mentioned previously, detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. It is heat and detonation that cause blown head gaskets and burned pistons, not boost. Achieving maximum performance from a given engine while avoiding detonation requires the right combination of intake air temperature, timing and fuel quality. For example, without intercooling a stock 5.0 with 9.5:1 compression ratio can only hold 5-6 psi of boost before detonation becomes a problem. The only way to safely run more than 6 psi of boost and still make a meaningful increase in power without an intercooler is by using racing fuel to avoid detonation. Many companies also employ "band-aids" such as ignition retard and larger injectors to run 8-9 psi on pump gas, but the resulting increase in performance is only marginal (since both of these band-aids suboptimize) and detonation is frequently still a problem.
Hopefully this helps. Bob
Self-Contained Oiling from the Innovator and Leader
ATI’s self-contained (SC) ProCharger models are the first and only gear-driven centrifugal superchargers to feature self-lubrication, and contain the industry’s most advanced technology. In addition to the patented self-contained oiling design, SC ProChargers also feature the highest step-up ratio, exclusive billet impellers, and the industry's only billet gearcases for superior rigidity, sealing and appearance. These proven self-contained ProChargers, introduced in 1999, were designed specifically for internal lubrication and have become the industry standard.
The best-selling P-1SC-1 shares many of the design elements which deliver the record-setting durability and performance of ProCharger competition superchargers, and is also quiet and street legal. With their rugged design, these ProChargers are the only self-contained superchargers durable enough to be backed with a 3 year warranty and powerful enough to harness the benefits of intercooling.
The patented SC design eliminates the need for oil lines and punching a hole in the oil pan, thanks to an exclusive oil pump. This pump aerates the oil to create the oil mist lubrication required for the ProCharger’s precision bearings and gears. This oil pump (aeration pump) does not require priming at start-up, and oil changes are required only every 6,000 miles. Additionally, instead of being forced to utilize engine oil or the grease in sealed bearings, SC ProChargers are lubricated with an extremely high quality synthetic oil which is specifically engineered for high speed use, and produces the least frictional heat and parasitic load. The self-contained design also eliminates the heat that is transferred to a supercharger by engine oil in oil-fed applications, and avoids the risk of clogged supercharger oil lines, oil drainage problems, or engine oil leakage.
By combining advanced supercharger transmission design with the highest quality oil, SC ProChargers produce a larger net power gain because they run cooler and consume less power than comparable oil-fed designs. SC ProChargers also feature an internal step-up ratio of 4.10:1 for improved belt tracking and traction, and maximum low-rpm boost and power.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
Intercooled Supercharging
ATI introduced the industry's first intercooled supercharger system nearly 3 years before its nearest competitor, and is still the only company that offers intercooling as an integrated solution rather than just an after-thought. Intercooled centrifugal supercharging is simply the most sophisticated, reliable and cost effective method for substantially increasing the horsepower and torque of your vehicle. Because intercooling removes heat, increases air/fuel density and allows the use of factory (or close to factory) ignition timing, a well-designed intercooled supercharger system will produce far larger power gains than a non-intercooled supercharger system, especially for fuel-injected motors running pump gas. And after three years of saying that intercooling doesn't work, even our competitors now agree with this.
The Fundamental Solution
All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi. At the same boost level, an Intercooled ProCharger operates at only 28° above ambient! This tremendous advantage from cooler air is just like the difference between driving your car on a cold winter's day vs the blistering heat of summer! Thats a real advantage that yields real performance. It helps to understand that no supercharger alone will ever begin to match the system efficiency of an intercooled supercharger system. This is simply because compressing air creates heat, as dictated by the laws of physics (Boyle's Gas Law). Even in the case of "perfect compression" (100% adiabatic efficiency, which is physically impossible without an intercooler - see chart), air temperature would increase by approximately 71° at only 8 psi, while the lower (40-80%) efficiencies of all non-intercooled superchargers produce substantially higher temperatures. Intercooled ProCharger systems are the fundamental, OEM solution - because not only is less heat created when the air is compressed, the majority of this heat is actually removed through intercooling.
The bottom line is that intercooled boost is substantially more powerful and safe for your engine than hot, non-intercooled boost. Now that technology has developed to the point that gear-driven superchargers are powerful enough to reliably blow through an intercooler, it simply doesn't make sense not to intercool, especially for fuel injected applications running pump gas. In fact, for high compression engines or continuous duty applications, such as marine or towing, intercooling is absolutely essential for reliability.
In basic terms, compressing air creates heat, while intercooling removes heat. The illustration above may help to further explain the tremendous impact of intercooling upon supercharger system efficiency and engine intake temperatures:
Benefits of Intercooling
Greatly Reduced Intake Temperature
An 85° - 200° drop in air temperature (dependent upon application) results in a more dense, powerful fuel/air charge, greatly reduces exposure to detonation, and virtually eliminates the "power fade" felt in back-to-back runs and extended pulls without intercooling
Full Timing
This reduction in temperature allows you to run factory (or close to factory) timing, and avoids the substantial horsepower loss inflicted by excessively retarded ignition timing
More Low-End Boost and Horsepower
The intercooler also acts as a passive wastegate, flattening the boost curve at higher rpm's and allowing more boost to be dialed in at lower rpm's
An Expanded Power Band
Full timing and forced induction keep the engine pulling hard to the redline
More Boost
Not only will you experience the above benefits at any boost level, you can also safely run substantially more boost when intercooled!
Reliable High Performance
Clearly, the only type of performance that matters is reliable performance, and detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. The boost range for reliable performance, without detonation, can be determined by looking at the type of supercharger technology being considered, and the compression ratio of the motor. With a lower compression ratio, an engine can safely handle more boost, everything else being equal. Similarly, if the temperature of the compressed air is lower, an engine will have a much higher detonation threshold (the point at which fuel ignites without a spark), and will be able to safely handle more boost. The chart below helps to illustrate how the overall efficiency of the entire supercharger system can be increased by both leading edge supercharger efficiency and the use of intercooling. Simply locate an engine's compression ratio at the bottom of the chart and trace upwards to determine the maximum reliable boost level. The amount of heat produced (adiabatic effiency) by each supercharging technology is what determines the boost limitation. While gear-driven centrifugal is clearly the superior supercharger technology, it is also clear that the biggest benefit comes from intercooling. These calculations assume moderate timing, 92 octane pump gas, and a good supply of fuel to the cylinders. As mentioned previously, detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. It is heat and detonation that cause blown head gaskets and burned pistons, not boost. Achieving maximum performance from a given engine while avoiding detonation requires the right combination of intake air temperature, timing and fuel quality. For example, without intercooling a stock 5.0 with 9.5:1 compression ratio can only hold 5-6 psi of boost before detonation becomes a problem. The only way to safely run more than 6 psi of boost and still make a meaningful increase in power without an intercooler is by using racing fuel to avoid detonation. Many companies also employ "band-aids" such as ignition retard and larger injectors to run 8-9 psi on pump gas, but the resulting increase in performance is only marginal (since both of these band-aids suboptimize) and detonation is frequently still a problem.
Hopefully this helps. Bob
10-28-2007, 05:56 PM
#49
My speed shop LOVEs prochargers, and they have been trying to convince to to go that route for quite some time. I chose the N/A route, but at the next rebuild I will be a very hard decision to make.
I have not ran either personally, but always I only hear good things about the procharged Z's.
I have not ran either personally, but always I only hear good things about the procharged Z's.
10-28-2007, 09:21 PM
#50
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Vortech pricing Just checked on new kits it looks like they are comparatively priced but the Vortech kit comes with a fuel pump
When I do this I am going to do it all the way no P-1's or S-trims
When I do this I am going to do it all the way no P-1's or S-trims
10-28-2007, 09:26 PM
#51
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ProCharger Superchargers
Self-Contained Oiling from the Innovator and Leader
ATI’s self-contained (SC) ProCharger models are the first and only gear-driven centrifugal superchargers to feature self-lubrication, and contain the industry’s most advanced technology. In addition to the patented self-contained oiling design, SC ProChargers also feature the highest step-up ratio, exclusive billet impellers, and the industry's only billet gearcases for superior rigidity, sealing and appearance. These proven self-contained ProChargers, introduced in 1999, were designed specifically for internal lubrication and have become the industry standard.
The best-selling P-1SC-1 shares many of the design elements which deliver the record-setting durability and performance of ProCharger competition superchargers, and is also quiet and street legal. With their rugged design, these ProChargers are the only self-contained superchargers durable enough to be backed with a 3 year warranty and powerful enough to harness the benefits of intercooling.
The patented SC design eliminates the need for oil lines and punching a hole in the oil pan, thanks to an exclusive oil pump. This pump aerates the oil to create the oil mist lubrication required for the ProCharger’s precision bearings and gears. This oil pump (aeration pump) does not require priming at start-up, and oil changes are required only every 6,000 miles. Additionally, instead of being forced to utilize engine oil or the grease in sealed bearings, SC ProChargers are lubricated with an extremely high quality synthetic oil which is specifically engineered for high speed use, and produces the least frictional heat and parasitic load. The self-contained design also eliminates the heat that is transferred to a supercharger by engine oil in oil-fed applications, and avoids the risk of clogged supercharger oil lines, oil drainage problems, or engine oil leakage.
By combining advanced supercharger transmission design with the highest quality oil, SC ProChargers produce a larger net power gain because they run cooler and consume less power than comparable oil-fed designs. SC ProChargers also feature an internal step-up ratio of 4.10:1 for improved belt tracking and traction, and maximum low-rpm boost and power.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
Intercooled Supercharging
ATI introduced the industry's first intercooled supercharger system nearly 3 years before its nearest competitor, and is still the only company that offers intercooling as an integrated solution rather than just an after-thought. Intercooled centrifugal supercharging is simply the most sophisticated, reliable and cost effective method for substantially increasing the horsepower and torque of your vehicle. Because intercooling removes heat, increases air/fuel density and allows the use of factory (or close to factory) ignition timing, a well-designed intercooled supercharger system will produce far larger power gains than a non-intercooled supercharger system, especially for fuel-injected motors running pump gas. And after three years of saying that intercooling doesn't work, even our competitors now agree with this.
The Fundamental Solution
All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi. At the same boost level, an Intercooled ProCharger operates at only 28° above ambient! This tremendous advantage from cooler air is just like the difference between driving your car on a cold winter's day vs the blistering heat of summer! Thats a real advantage that yields real performance. It helps to understand that no supercharger alone will ever begin to match the system efficiency of an intercooled supercharger system. This is simply because compressing air creates heat, as dictated by the laws of physics (Boyle's Gas Law). Even in the case of "perfect compression" (100% adiabatic efficiency, which is physically impossible without an intercooler - see chart), air temperature would increase by approximately 71° at only 8 psi, while the lower (40-80%) efficiencies of all non-intercooled superchargers produce substantially higher temperatures. Intercooled ProCharger systems are the fundamental, OEM solution - because not only is less heat created when the air is compressed, the majority of this heat is actually removed through intercooling.
The bottom line is that intercooled boost is substantially more powerful and safe for your engine than hot, non-intercooled boost. Now that technology has developed to the point that gear-driven superchargers are powerful enough to reliably blow through an intercooler, it simply doesn't make sense not to intercool, especially for fuel injected applications running pump gas. In fact, for high compression engines or continuous duty applications, such as marine or towing, intercooling is absolutely essential for reliability.
In basic terms, compressing air creates heat, while intercooling removes heat. The illustration above may help to further explain the tremendous impact of intercooling upon supercharger system efficiency and engine intake temperatures:
Benefits of Intercooling
Greatly Reduced Intake Temperature
An 85° - 200° drop in air temperature (dependent upon application) results in a more dense, powerful fuel/air charge, greatly reduces exposure to detonation, and virtually eliminates the "power fade" felt in back-to-back runs and extended pulls without intercooling
Full Timing
This reduction in temperature allows you to run factory (or close to factory) timing, and avoids the substantial horsepower loss inflicted by excessively retarded ignition timing
More Low-End Boost and Horsepower
The intercooler also acts as a passive wastegate, flattening the boost curve at higher rpm's and allowing more boost to be dialed in at lower rpm's
An Expanded Power Band
Full timing and forced induction keep the engine pulling hard to the redline
More Boost
Not only will you experience the above benefits at any boost level, you can also safely run substantially more boost when intercooled!
Reliable High Performance
Clearly, the only type of performance that matters is reliable performance, and detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. The boost range for reliable performance, without detonation, can be determined by looking at the type of supercharger technology being considered, and the compression ratio of the motor. With a lower compression ratio, an engine can safely handle more boost, everything else being equal. Similarly, if the temperature of the compressed air is lower, an engine will have a much higher detonation threshold (the point at which fuel ignites without a spark), and will be able to safely handle more boost. The chart below helps to illustrate how the overall efficiency of the entire supercharger system can be increased by both leading edge supercharger efficiency and the use of intercooling. Simply locate an engine's compression ratio at the bottom of the chart and trace upwards to determine the maximum reliable boost level. The amount of heat produced (adiabatic effiency) by each supercharging technology is what determines the boost limitation. While gear-driven centrifugal is clearly the superior supercharger technology, it is also clear that the biggest benefit comes from intercooling. These calculations assume moderate timing, 92 octane pump gas, and a good supply of fuel to the cylinders. As mentioned previously, detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. It is heat and detonation that cause blown head gaskets and burned pistons, not boost. Achieving maximum performance from a given engine while avoiding detonation requires the right combination of intake air temperature, timing and fuel quality. For example, without intercooling a stock 5.0 with 9.5:1 compression ratio can only hold 5-6 psi of boost before detonation becomes a problem. The only way to safely run more than 6 psi of boost and still make a meaningful increase in power without an intercooler is by using racing fuel to avoid detonation. Many companies also employ "band-aids" such as ignition retard and larger injectors to run 8-9 psi on pump gas, but the resulting increase in performance is only marginal (since both of these band-aids suboptimize) and detonation is frequently still a problem.
Hopefully this helps. Bob
Self-Contained Oiling from the Innovator and Leader
ATI’s self-contained (SC) ProCharger models are the first and only gear-driven centrifugal superchargers to feature self-lubrication, and contain the industry’s most advanced technology. In addition to the patented self-contained oiling design, SC ProChargers also feature the highest step-up ratio, exclusive billet impellers, and the industry's only billet gearcases for superior rigidity, sealing and appearance. These proven self-contained ProChargers, introduced in 1999, were designed specifically for internal lubrication and have become the industry standard.
The best-selling P-1SC-1 shares many of the design elements which deliver the record-setting durability and performance of ProCharger competition superchargers, and is also quiet and street legal. With their rugged design, these ProChargers are the only self-contained superchargers durable enough to be backed with a 3 year warranty and powerful enough to harness the benefits of intercooling.
The patented SC design eliminates the need for oil lines and punching a hole in the oil pan, thanks to an exclusive oil pump. This pump aerates the oil to create the oil mist lubrication required for the ProCharger’s precision bearings and gears. This oil pump (aeration pump) does not require priming at start-up, and oil changes are required only every 6,000 miles. Additionally, instead of being forced to utilize engine oil or the grease in sealed bearings, SC ProChargers are lubricated with an extremely high quality synthetic oil which is specifically engineered for high speed use, and produces the least frictional heat and parasitic load. The self-contained design also eliminates the heat that is transferred to a supercharger by engine oil in oil-fed applications, and avoids the risk of clogged supercharger oil lines, oil drainage problems, or engine oil leakage.
By combining advanced supercharger transmission design with the highest quality oil, SC ProChargers produce a larger net power gain because they run cooler and consume less power than comparable oil-fed designs. SC ProChargers also feature an internal step-up ratio of 4.10:1 for improved belt tracking and traction, and maximum low-rpm boost and power.
Intercooled Supercharging
ProCharger pioneered intercooled supercharging years before others and still offers the most effective, reliable and highest flowing intercoolers. These deliver the lowest charge air temperature available for maximum engine longevity and efficiency, with zero maintenance. We also offer the broadest range of intercoolers of any supercharger manufacturer. This ensures the right product for your power level and type of use.
Intercooled Supercharging
ATI introduced the industry's first intercooled supercharger system nearly 3 years before its nearest competitor, and is still the only company that offers intercooling as an integrated solution rather than just an after-thought. Intercooled centrifugal supercharging is simply the most sophisticated, reliable and cost effective method for substantially increasing the horsepower and torque of your vehicle. Because intercooling removes heat, increases air/fuel density and allows the use of factory (or close to factory) ignition timing, a well-designed intercooled supercharger system will produce far larger power gains than a non-intercooled supercharger system, especially for fuel-injected motors running pump gas. And after three years of saying that intercooling doesn't work, even our competitors now agree with this.
The Fundamental Solution
All non-intercooled superchargers operate with an intake manifold temperature in the general range of 115° - 200° above ambient (outside air) temperature at 8 psi. At the same boost level, an Intercooled ProCharger operates at only 28° above ambient! This tremendous advantage from cooler air is just like the difference between driving your car on a cold winter's day vs the blistering heat of summer! Thats a real advantage that yields real performance. It helps to understand that no supercharger alone will ever begin to match the system efficiency of an intercooled supercharger system. This is simply because compressing air creates heat, as dictated by the laws of physics (Boyle's Gas Law). Even in the case of "perfect compression" (100% adiabatic efficiency, which is physically impossible without an intercooler - see chart), air temperature would increase by approximately 71° at only 8 psi, while the lower (40-80%) efficiencies of all non-intercooled superchargers produce substantially higher temperatures. Intercooled ProCharger systems are the fundamental, OEM solution - because not only is less heat created when the air is compressed, the majority of this heat is actually removed through intercooling.
The bottom line is that intercooled boost is substantially more powerful and safe for your engine than hot, non-intercooled boost. Now that technology has developed to the point that gear-driven superchargers are powerful enough to reliably blow through an intercooler, it simply doesn't make sense not to intercool, especially for fuel injected applications running pump gas. In fact, for high compression engines or continuous duty applications, such as marine or towing, intercooling is absolutely essential for reliability.
In basic terms, compressing air creates heat, while intercooling removes heat. The illustration above may help to further explain the tremendous impact of intercooling upon supercharger system efficiency and engine intake temperatures:
Benefits of Intercooling
Greatly Reduced Intake Temperature
An 85° - 200° drop in air temperature (dependent upon application) results in a more dense, powerful fuel/air charge, greatly reduces exposure to detonation, and virtually eliminates the "power fade" felt in back-to-back runs and extended pulls without intercooling
Full Timing
This reduction in temperature allows you to run factory (or close to factory) timing, and avoids the substantial horsepower loss inflicted by excessively retarded ignition timing
More Low-End Boost and Horsepower
The intercooler also acts as a passive wastegate, flattening the boost curve at higher rpm's and allowing more boost to be dialed in at lower rpm's
An Expanded Power Band
Full timing and forced induction keep the engine pulling hard to the redline
More Boost
Not only will you experience the above benefits at any boost level, you can also safely run substantially more boost when intercooled!
Reliable High Performance
Clearly, the only type of performance that matters is reliable performance, and detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. The boost range for reliable performance, without detonation, can be determined by looking at the type of supercharger technology being considered, and the compression ratio of the motor. With a lower compression ratio, an engine can safely handle more boost, everything else being equal. Similarly, if the temperature of the compressed air is lower, an engine will have a much higher detonation threshold (the point at which fuel ignites without a spark), and will be able to safely handle more boost. The chart below helps to illustrate how the overall efficiency of the entire supercharger system can be increased by both leading edge supercharger efficiency and the use of intercooling. Simply locate an engine's compression ratio at the bottom of the chart and trace upwards to determine the maximum reliable boost level. The amount of heat produced (adiabatic effiency) by each supercharging technology is what determines the boost limitation. While gear-driven centrifugal is clearly the superior supercharger technology, it is also clear that the biggest benefit comes from intercooling. These calculations assume moderate timing, 92 octane pump gas, and a good supply of fuel to the cylinders. As mentioned previously, detonation is the single biggest threat to engine reliability. It is heat and detonation that cause blown head gaskets and burned pistons, not boost. Achieving maximum performance from a given engine while avoiding detonation requires the right combination of intake air temperature, timing and fuel quality. For example, without intercooling a stock 5.0 with 9.5:1 compression ratio can only hold 5-6 psi of boost before detonation becomes a problem. The only way to safely run more than 6 psi of boost and still make a meaningful increase in power without an intercooler is by using racing fuel to avoid detonation. Many companies also employ "band-aids" such as ignition retard and larger injectors to run 8-9 psi on pump gas, but the resulting increase in performance is only marginal (since both of these band-aids suboptimize) and detonation is frequently still a problem.
Hopefully this helps. Bob
Thanks Bob
that corvette that ran the 2.5 miles where do they mount the procharger isnt it in front of intake whenever I see them on vettes it looks like they are right there in front
Reason I am saying this is because mine would be mounted down by the headers alot closer to heat and it just worries me a lil on a self contained system. I am 100 percent sure you know what I am talking about you do this for a living and you do well. I just want to see what you think.
10-29-2007, 09:53 PM
#53
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at this point you just need to make your own decision and decide who you think is feeding you the most accuarte info.
My opinion on Procharger is mixed, i made some very good power with mine. It was a D1 unit. The bracket and tensioner set up was not so great, neither were the restrictive twins, the rubber hose that connects to the flexeble tube off the blower was collapsing at 14psi and causing the car to shut off while in boost. When i took the rubber intake tube off i still couldnt make more then 14psi, when i took the flex pipe off the inlet of the blower i made almost 4psi more.
I spent damn near 150 man hours fighting my belt eating issues i had on the 12rib set up, finally shimming up the buttom of the bracket and that fixed the issues.
I can go on.....
My opinion on Procharger is mixed, i made some very good power with mine. It was a D1 unit. The bracket and tensioner set up was not so great, neither were the restrictive twins, the rubber hose that connects to the flexeble tube off the blower was collapsing at 14psi and causing the car to shut off while in boost. When i took the rubber intake tube off i still couldnt make more then 14psi, when i took the flex pipe off the inlet of the blower i made almost 4psi more.
I spent damn near 150 man hours fighting my belt eating issues i had on the 12rib set up, finally shimming up the buttom of the bracket and that fixed the issues.
I can go on.....
10-29-2007, 11:28 PM
#55
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at this point you just need to make your own decision and decide who you think is feeding you the most accuarte info.
My opinion on Procharger is mixed, i made some very good power with mine. It was a D1 unit. The bracket and tensioner set up was not so great, neither were the restrictive twins, the rubber hose that connects to the flexeble tube off the blower was collapsing at 14psi and causing the car to shut off while in boost. When i took the rubber intake tube off i still couldnt make more then 14psi, when i took the flex pipe off the inlet of the blower i made almost 4psi more.
I spent damn near 150 man hours fighting my belt eating issues i had on the 12rib set up, finally shimming up the buttom of the bracket and that fixed the issues.
I can go on.....
My opinion on Procharger is mixed, i made some very good power with mine. It was a D1 unit. The bracket and tensioner set up was not so great, neither were the restrictive twins, the rubber hose that connects to the flexeble tube off the blower was collapsing at 14psi and causing the car to shut off while in boost. When i took the rubber intake tube off i still couldnt make more then 14psi, when i took the flex pipe off the inlet of the blower i made almost 4psi more.
I spent damn near 150 man hours fighting my belt eating issues i had on the 12rib set up, finally shimming up the buttom of the bracket and that fixed the issues.
I can go on.....
I believe every thing you say because the guy that is selling me that D-1 kit has said everything you said he had problems with this kit too and he said he had to do some pain in the *** fabricating also. But He is offering 4,000 G's for install complete kit and tune and it looks like a really good deal and he is a respectable LTX member on this forum. It seems to me that he is been down he same road you have so I really don't think he would make any mistakes and know about the belt issues. Are these issues what makes you decide Vortech is better system? And what are the issues with Vortechs T-Trim when you had it if there was any? Also which kit made better numbers and more reliable? Thanks for allowing me to pick your brain I appreciate the answers and I am def listening to you?
Thanks Boe
