LT1 vs LS1
12-23-2007, 05:30 PM
#203
***WARNING - Copy/Paste Abuse!***
Super Stock and Stock Eliminator are VERY different classes. Stock Eliminators were listed as examples, which run UNPORTED heads and stock LIFT cams. With more cam selection I could hand them a pair of junkyard stock heads and they will still be well into the 10s.
Super Stock and Stock Eliminator are VERY different classes. Stock Eliminators were listed as examples, which run UNPORTED heads and stock LIFT cams. With more cam selection I could hand them a pair of junkyard stock heads and they will still be well into the 10s.
Super Stock and Stock Eliminator are VERY different classes. Stock Eliminators were listed as examples, which run UNPORTED heads and stock LIFT cams. With more cam selection I could hand them a pair of junkyard stock heads and they will still be well into the 10s.
Super Stock and Stock Eliminator are VERY different classes. Stock Eliminators were listed as examples, which run UNPORTED heads and stock LIFT cams. With more cam selection I could hand them a pair of junkyard stock heads and they will still be well into the 10s.
So true!!! 
As you can see, I am tired of putting effort into this argument if you are unwilling to accept any view other then your own. You can keep your eyes locked into only internet web forums, and the rest of the world can accept the truth
. Maybe you can convince Frank to chop his car down to no carpet, one seat, no dash, grazy gearing, and a ton of stall like the LS1 guys do. I'm sure then he will be well into 10s! Not as fast as the LS1 of course - the heads are not great in comparison - but he CAN come within a few tenths of that 10.2 
Well I give you props for finally giving me some links. But Houston, we have a problem. Apparently stock eliminator isn't quite as stock as you may think. I did some digging and here is what I found:
http://www.teamjegs.com/thecars/superstock.asp
Specifically this statement in the article:
Strict rules apply to Super Stock engines, which must use factory matching blocks, cylinder heads, and carburetors. Engine modifications are limited to the addition of aftermarket intake manifolds, exhaust headers, and valve train components. Mildly ported cylinder heads are also permitted.
Mildly ported heads are permitted? Then I did some research on Gizmo and found this:
Mildly ported LT4 heads. While the rules appear to be very strict regarding heads it would also seem that they do not require a factory motor with untouched factory heads.
Quite frankly there are a number of trick pieces you can use in a stock eliminator cylinder head and still remain legal from a racing perspective.
That was a quote from this link that you provided me:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
Don't get me wrong. I found the links very imformative and most impressive. But there is a reason the searches on cam only record didn't show guys like Gizmo. Because they are not 100% GM built untouched LT1 heads.
http://www.teamjegs.com/thecars/superstock.asp
Specifically this statement in the article:
Strict rules apply to Super Stock engines, which must use factory matching blocks, cylinder heads, and carburetors. Engine modifications are limited to the addition of aftermarket intake manifolds, exhaust headers, and valve train components. Mildly ported cylinder heads are also permitted.
Mildly ported heads are permitted? Then I did some research on Gizmo and found this:
Mildly ported LT4 heads. While the rules appear to be very strict regarding heads it would also seem that they do not require a factory motor with untouched factory heads.
Quite frankly there are a number of trick pieces you can use in a stock eliminator cylinder head and still remain legal from a racing perspective.
That was a quote from this link that you provided me:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...nfo/index.html
Don't get me wrong. I found the links very imformative and most impressive. But there is a reason the searches on cam only record didn't show guys like Gizmo. Because they are not 100% GM built untouched LT1 heads.
I appreciate the clarification. But the fact remains that none of these guys are using GM issued untouched LT1 heads. And that includes Gizmo who puck has mentioned several times.
So the cam only record still remains 11.1 @ 119 unless someone can issue me a link that describes a LT1 car going faster under the following peramiters:
GM built LT1 motor (no LT4's, 383's, ect)
GM issued and unported/untouched LT1 heads
No power adders
As far as I see the times to beat are still 11.1 for LT1's and 10.2 for LS1's.
So the cam only record still remains 11.1 @ 119 unless someone can issue me a link that describes a LT1 car going faster under the following peramiters:
GM built LT1 motor (no LT4's, 383's, ect)
GM issued and unported/untouched LT1 heads
No power adders
As far as I see the times to beat are still 11.1 for LT1's and 10.2 for LS1's.
And I am not convinced of that. Gizmo was running LT4 heads not LT1. Correct me if I'm wrong but arn't LT4 heads better out of the box then LT1 heads?
If it was so easy to run 10's cam only then why isn't Frank95Z deep in the 10's? Why has no one over all these years done it? Records are always a milestone that attact people. Surely someone has attempted to break that record before. I know for a fact someone (probably more then one) is trying to break Shons 11.8 bolt on record as we speak. They may or may not do it but someone is always thinking of ways to be a record holder.
My position has remained unchanged. If you modify the heads to gain an edge then they are no longer stock. Under the conditions of this debate the record is still 11.1 @ 119.
Get one of these stock or super stock guys to strap on a set of untouched factory LT1 heads onto a factory built LT1 motor with any cam they like and then get back to me with the results. If they make a 10.xx pass then I'll give him props and we can alter the discussion at that time.
Until then the LT1 and LS1 records remain nearly a second apart with the LS1 in the lead. And considering the better flowing head design of the LS1 it's as it should be.
If it was so easy to run 10's cam only then why isn't Frank95Z deep in the 10's? Why has no one over all these years done it? Records are always a milestone that attact people. Surely someone has attempted to break that record before. I know for a fact someone (probably more then one) is trying to break Shons 11.8 bolt on record as we speak. They may or may not do it but someone is always thinking of ways to be a record holder.
My position has remained unchanged. If you modify the heads to gain an edge then they are no longer stock. Under the conditions of this debate the record is still 11.1 @ 119.
Get one of these stock or super stock guys to strap on a set of untouched factory LT1 heads onto a factory built LT1 motor with any cam they like and then get back to me with the results. If they make a 10.xx pass then I'll give him props and we can alter the discussion at that time.
Until then the LT1 and LS1 records remain nearly a second apart with the LS1 in the lead. And considering the better flowing head design of the LS1 it's as it should be.
And I'm equally sure they won't be doing that anytime soon as well. And for the record I'm very impressed with some of the times you guys have posted. For the limitations that are in place these guys are pulling down some amazing 60's and ET's. They are a true testament to the sport of Drag Racing.
But with all this side tracking of NHRA stock and super stock did anything really change? Is the LS1 still not faster stock vs stock? Is the LS1 still not faster bolt on for bolt on? Is the worlds fastet LS1 still not faster then the worlds fastest LT1?
Is the LS1 still not a better motor design created by GM to be an upgrade to the LT1?
I don't know about you but I gotta say yes to all of the above.
But with all this side tracking of NHRA stock and super stock did anything really change? Is the LS1 still not faster stock vs stock? Is the LS1 still not faster bolt on for bolt on? Is the worlds fastet LS1 still not faster then the worlds fastest LT1?
Is the LS1 still not a better motor design created by GM to be an upgrade to the LT1?
I don't know about you but I gotta say yes to all of the above.
As you can see, I am tired of putting effort into this argument if you are unwilling to accept any view other then your own. You can keep your eyes locked into only internet web forums, and the rest of the world can accept the truth
. Maybe you can convince Frank to chop his car down to no carpet, one seat, no dash, grazy gearing, and a ton of stall like the LS1 guys do. I'm sure then he will be well into 10s! Not as fast as the LS1 of course - the heads are not great in comparison - but he CAN come within a few tenths of that 10.2
12-23-2007, 05:58 PM
#204
come on guys that pic is totally bogus everyone knows richard simmons is a ford guy.
But realistically, The lions share of the power comes down to cylinder head flow regardless of engine. Yes, there are some power/efficiency gains from tight combustion chambers and other even more minor differences, but for equal compression and cams, the power is in head flow. I could get my 18 degree heads to work on an LT1 and make more power than all but the most elite LS1's can, but the fab time and money involved would make it not worth while.
Like said above this ones been beat to death. Back to work on a customers SHO motor......now theres one that makes all GM motors look good!
12-23-2007, 06:41 PM
#205
11 Second Club
Apparently a lot of people in this thread. You and I included.
So? This isn't a debate about $$$. It's a debate about motor potential. Now if you can tell me you know of someone with the exact same mods as me (and full weight) in a LT1 that can smoke me then it would make an intersting point. But we both know that isn't the case.
That's neither here nor there. What if your former classmate has 6K still in the bank after he bought his LS1? Do you think he can make the LS1 faster with the same 6K? I do.
That's neither here nor there. What if your former classmate has 6K still in the bank after he bought his LS1? Do you think he can make the LS1 faster with the same 6K? I do.
Last edited by darrensls1; 12-23-2007 at 06:47 PM.
12-23-2007, 06:45 PM
#206
11 Second Club
The record still stands at 11.1 @ 119 until you can show me actual proof that someone else beat that mark with GM issued, untouched LT1 heads on a stock displacement LT1 motor.
And no power adder
12-23-2007, 06:51 PM
#207
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So? This isn't a debate about $$$. It's a debate about motor potential. Now if you can tell me you know of someone with the exact same mods as me (and full weight) in a LT1 that can smoke me then it would make an intersting point. But we both know that isn't the case.
.
.
But hey, you learn new things everyday.
So what if the LS1 is only half a second at best, better then the LT1 is some classes...don't lose any sleep over it.
12-23-2007, 06:56 PM
#208
11 Second Club
But whatever helps you get through your day.
12-23-2007, 07:16 PM
#209
Darren,
I'm shocked that someone who had never heard of me a few days ago has slandered me so much. You really need to pull your head out of your rear. Stock Eliminator is run at both NHRA and IHRA events. All passes are documented in real time courtesy of Summit Racing. And before you slam me again you might want to look into who built the car that holds the current B/FIA 1/8 and 1/4 mile IHRA National Records.
Take Care,
Daren
12-23-2007, 07:35 PM
#210
11 Second Club
Darren,
I'm shocked that someone who had never heard of me a few days ago has slandered me so much. You really need to pull your head out of your rear. Stock Eliminator is run at both NHRA and IHRA events. All passes are documented in real time courtesy of Summit Racing. And before you slam me again you might want to look into who built the car that holds the current B/FIA 1/8 and 1/4 mile IHRA National Records.
Take Care,
Daren
I'm shocked that someone who had never heard of me a few days ago has slandered me so much. You really need to pull your head out of your rear. Stock Eliminator is run at both NHRA and IHRA events. All passes are documented in real time courtesy of Summit Racing. And before you slam me again you might want to look into who built the car that holds the current B/FIA 1/8 and 1/4 mile IHRA National Records.
Take Care,
Daren
As long as you are here, how about some clarifications?
Are stock eliminator classes using factory stock heads made by GM? Or are they using different heads under certain factory spec guidlines. Because what I have read thus far shows the latter.
I'm currently researching the different classes as this debate has struck some curiosity on my part. I keep seeing the term "stock head specs" but not the term "stock heads".
It's been some interesting reading.
12-23-2007, 07:59 PM
#211
Stock Eliminator allows a three angle valve job and stock diameter aftermarket valves, so you could say that the heads are modified. The 10.50 times that were posted were with an LT1 (It was a legal Stocker motor not a cam only motor). I have raced with several LT4's in different classes with mixed results (including the stock bottom end one that you miss quoted above). I also built a cam only L99 (265 ci LT1) that ran 7.8's in the 1/8 @ 3300 lbs N/A. I currently own two LTX motored race cars.
For the record, stock for stock, an LT1 is no match for an LS1. An LT4 to LS1 comparrison would be a better match. Put a cam with similar "cam only" specs into an LT4 and you would see a pretty good race with a "cam only" LS1.
For the record, stock for stock, an LT1 is no match for an LS1. An LT4 to LS1 comparrison would be a better match. Put a cam with similar "cam only" specs into an LT4 and you would see a pretty good race with a "cam only" LS1.
12-23-2007, 08:10 PM
#212
11 Second Club
Stock Eliminator allows a three angle valve job and stock diameter aftermarket valves, so you could say that the heads are modified. The 10.50 times that were posted were with an LT1 (It was a legal Stocker motor not a cam only motor). I have raced with several LT4's in different classes with mixed results (including the stock bottom end one that you miss quoted above). I also built a cam only L99 (265 ci LT1) that ran 7.8's in the 1/8 @ 3300 lbs N/A. I currently own two LTX motored race cars.
For the record, stock for stock, an LT1 is no match for an LS1. An LT4 to LS1 comparrison would be a better match. Put a cam with similar "cam only" specs into an LT4 and you would see a pretty good race with a "cam only" LS1.
For the record, stock for stock, an LT1 is no match for an LS1. An LT4 to LS1 comparrison would be a better match. Put a cam with similar "cam only" specs into an LT4 and you would see a pretty good race with a "cam only" LS1.
But to think that we have guys building 408's with aftermarket heads, big cams, big tires, ect and still get out run by cars in stock eliminator is a real eye opener. Those are some well built cars with one purpose in mind. Kick *** at the track.
And I agree 100% about the LT4's. They are much more in line with the LS1 from what I have seen.
12-24-2007, 04:14 AM
#213
Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like an interesting class to race in. But from what I read these cars can cost well over 30K to build. Ouch! That'll put a dent in your wallet.
But to think that we have guys building 408's with aftermarket heads, big cams, big tires, ect and still get out run by cars in stock eliminator is a real eye opener. Those are some well built cars with one purpose in mind. Kick *** at the track.
And I agree 100% about the LT4's. They are much more in line with the LS1 from what I have seen.
But to think that we have guys building 408's with aftermarket heads, big cams, big tires, ect and still get out run by cars in stock eliminator is a real eye opener. Those are some well built cars with one purpose in mind. Kick *** at the track.
And I agree 100% about the LT4's. They are much more in line with the LS1 from what I have seen.
Let it die!
12-24-2007, 06:26 AM
#214
11 Second Club
Not only that but these guys also build these motors from the block up so they are not even GM built LT1's/LS1's motors. So now that we have this straight we can once and for all declare that my earlier assessment was correct.
The fastest cam only LT1 on record is 11.1 @ 119 and the fastest cam only LS1 on record is 10.2 @ 130.
I'm more then content to let this thread die. Are you?
Last edited by darrensls1; 12-24-2007 at 06:31 AM.
12-24-2007, 07:11 AM
#215
11 Second Club
I know this thread makes me look like I'm ripping on the LT1. That is not my intention. I used to drive a 95 A4 Z28 and I loved that car. When I see someone say something I know isn't true then I feel compelled to debate. That's just the way I am.
There are a ton of people running bad *** sounding LT1's that can destroy my car in a race. And I totally respect that and can appreciate anything that is fast. I take pride in my car as should everyone in this thread. We all have american muscle and that is a beautiful thing.
Just on the off chance this thread dies or is locked before tomarrow, I want to wish everyone a merry Christmas.
There are a ton of people running bad *** sounding LT1's that can destroy my car in a race. And I totally respect that and can appreciate anything that is fast. I take pride in my car as should everyone in this thread. We all have american muscle and that is a beautiful thing.
Just on the off chance this thread dies or is locked before tomarrow, I want to wish everyone a merry Christmas.
12-24-2007, 07:36 AM
#216
So an ls1 with better heads, better intake and a bigger cam is faster than an LT1? You LS1 guys are sharp!!! I thought we covered that in stock form the LS1 is better? Cam only it should be better.
12-24-2007, 08:01 AM
#217
OK, what I am going to do...
Some of you may have seen a 1998 Firebird that I have been building in a thread on here. The youth at my church will be finishing and racing it at select IHRA races next year as part of an outreach program. I still have the 186 original mile LT1 from my Formula (It went 11.32 cam only). I will have the kids put the stock cam back in it. After we run it that way for a while we will put a cam and valve springs in it and see what happens. This will not be for "internet records", but I am willing to bet that it will be faster than you expect. When we are finished and the attacks begin I will pull it out and tear it down for all to see (Frank, this is a Stock Eliminator car, so you don't need to add anything. Your "grocery store/cam only record" will still be safe).
Happy Holidays!
Daren
Some of you may have seen a 1998 Firebird that I have been building in a thread on here. The youth at my church will be finishing and racing it at select IHRA races next year as part of an outreach program. I still have the 186 original mile LT1 from my Formula (It went 11.32 cam only). I will have the kids put the stock cam back in it. After we run it that way for a while we will put a cam and valve springs in it and see what happens. This will not be for "internet records", but I am willing to bet that it will be faster than you expect. When we are finished and the attacks begin I will pull it out and tear it down for all to see (Frank, this is a Stock Eliminator car, so you don't need to add anything. Your "grocery store/cam only record" will still be safe).
Happy Holidays!
Daren
12-24-2007, 12:56 PM
#218
11 Second Club
Merry Christmas,
Darren (with 2 r's
) 