I found a very knowlegable local engine builder who did good work for some of my friends in the past. I asked him if he would build a motor for me, and he said he would be happy to..... Problem is, he doesnt want to help me pick and choose parts. I can understand that cause he's a busy guy and has work of his own.

My hp/tq goal is to have them both in the area of 475 to 525 at rear wheels. I want to get there without cheating. (no nos or boost) The engine builder put me in touch with his personal cam guy at comp, who i will contact in the morning. So far this is what i have decided on, but what other things to i need to consider? I want to guess on how much this will cost me but i know my list is missing a lot.

1) custom ground solid roller with a .650 lift

2) afr eliminator 210's

3) eagle rotating assy. (forged & balanced)

4) either a poked lt-4 or splayed and poked lt-1

5) lt-1 rebuild kit

6) I'd like to use the stock manifold ( obviously SLIGHTLY modified)

7) What lifters and pushrods for solid roller? im lost.

8) What # injectors? pressure regulator? gph fuel pump?

9) here's another controversy, which 58 mm TB?

10) how hard is it to convert lt-1 to coil packs? I dont know if opti is the way to go.

I have never had an engine built from scratch before, and dont want this project to become a nightmare. I want to do it right the first time, but have no experience. Thanks for all replies....-Chris

 

Thats a HUGE GOAL!
It is also alot of power and torque, and I think you are going to want to take a look at the 227's and also have them CNC Comp ported. Even so it is going to take alot of displacement to get that kinda horsepower and a whole lotta cash.

As far as the injectors and such you need to decide on your displacement first. Talk with some of the guys here that are producing that kind of power, they are the only ones I would rely on, every one else is just a guess and an opinion. Tony Sheppard is a good one I would recommend just because I know he is helpful and will point you in the right direction.
The opti to coils is either the delteq or the ltcc. Those are the two options out there and I personally like the ltcc better.

 

my mistake, i thought i stated 396 stroker, but i did not.

 

I've only built one engine, so I don't really consider myself to be an aficionado, but I did everything but the machine work. I'll try to tackle a few questions until you post more information.

The main components will depend on your wallet and what you want to do down the road. What displacement do you want to run? 355ci? 383? Any chance of running nitrous or forced induction down the road (forged internals)? How much money are you looking to spend in total?

There are tons of online calculators for determining compression ratio, which will help you determine which brand/types of components you want to run. This will take into account such things as the stroke, bore, piston head volume, headgasket compressed thickness, if you deck the block or port the heads' combustion chambers, etc. I'd strongly suggest that you figure everything out before you order a single part.

Since you want to run a solid-roller, keep in mind that this will most-likely involve disabling the knock sensor. If you don't, the computer will pick up the noisy valvetrain as knock, and jack your ignition timing (=lost hp). This causes certain obstacles and problems.

This is a controversial subject. I went with a factory LT1 block with splayed 4-bolt mains (+ ARP studs), but some claim the straight 4-bolt LT4 mains are sufficient for most applications. Another problem is finding an LT4 block -- they're not always easy to come by.

I went with Morel SR lifters. Expensive, but very high-quality. These will be under considerable more stress than a standard hydraulic lifter/cam, so don't skimp. You might want to read up on oiling issues associated with solid lifters as well.

For the pushrods, you'll have to wait until the engine is assembled and use a pushrod length checker tool to determine the required length. For example, I used Comp's Hi-Tech one-piece chromemoly pushrods (p/n 7935-16 to be exact). This is on a ~250-duration, .660" lift SR camshaft. If you stick with factory head castings, pretty much any valvespring you choose will likely require machining of the cylinder heads' spring pockets, such as the Comp 954's I use.

With 525rwhp, you're going to have closer to 600hp at the flywheel. Using the standard fuel injector formulas, that calls for roughly 47# injectors at 43.5psi fuel pressure. I'm not sure if I'd get in trouble mentioning vendors, but I know you can get ahold of injectors in 42, 48, and 50#.

I'd consider at least getting a Walbro 255lph pump. I use an MSD fuel pump voltage booster (since most of these pumps can handle +16-17vdc), but this is debatable.

I chose to go with a Holley AFPR, but I've not researched regulators in years. You'll have to read up on Aeromotive and other brands.

I've had an AS&M 54mm for years, and would highly recommend them. They are again expensive, but they seem to have the best build quality with the least amount of problems.

As a Delteq user, I can say it's "not too hard", but keep in mind you still need a working optispark installed. The Delteq and LTCC both require functioning optical sensors within the optispark, as does the factory PCM, in order for the car to run. These kits simply eliminate the 'high-voltage' side of the optispark.

 

Alex, thanks for your response, you seem to be very knowlegable, I hope you dont mind if I pick your brain for the next couple of days. First, do you think my hp goal is atainable on pump gas? The bottom end will be forged, im thinking 396 since i dont want power adders. Id like to keep it under 7 grand if possible. knock sensor can be deleted along with all emissions. I just dont know where or how to start.

 

I think your budget is much too low for your stated goals. It would be easy to spend 7 grand on the short block alone for that power level.

Also, since this is clearly not gonna be an emission legal setup, that's obviously not an issue for you. Why even stay with an LT1 in that case? There are FAR bettter blocks available aftermarket if you start to look at SBC stuff, at far better prices, parts are cheaper, etc. It would open up the options a lot.

 

I concur with most everything Alex posted.
As for this statement I am scratchin my head somewhat. I do agree that an aftermarket block, say Motown is a better place to start with in high dollar race applications. What I am failing to understand since they are ALL SBC is how in the world parts are cheaper?
The LT1 has significant advantages over traditional SBC's, the main being the reverse flowed cooling which allows you to run a much higher compression ratio (up to 13.9:1) without detonation issues on pump gas. The weakness is the opti and you can eliminate that, or the problematic part of that by removing the high voltage from the unit itself utilizing either the ltcc or delteq system. The block can be splayed to four bolt and hold up to that kind of power as it most certainly is not anywhere near the strongest LT1 ever built, it can be filled, half filled etc. but you will have the bulk of your money into proper and good machining.
Since it has not yet been addressed I will introduce it to the thread. You can build all the powerr you want but it is for naught unless you can actually put it to the ground! Maintaining traction is the key! Also the rear is going to have to be reconstituted to either a 12 bolt or the S60. I don't care for a 9 inch on a unibody as it tends to send vibration and noises into the cab via the torque arm.

 

You need to scale your goals WAY WAY back.

If an M6 these numbers are attainable, BUT extemely unlikely for an inexperianced guy to be able to bolt it together well enough and have the car setup to handle it as well as mainatain it.

1. your description is meaningless
2. untested and based on past performance of their other stuff not a wise choice
3. boarderline stupid choice, look into Compstar if you want something relatively inexpensive but actually GOOD. Tghe Eagle stuff does not tend to break but things being out of dimension are commonplace, the Compstar is MUCH better everything and barely any more money, about the same by the time you spend the money balancing the Eagle crap.
4. LT4 block is the same casting as the LT1 block, splayed LT1 block is BETTER choice
5. What? guessing you mean gaskets and stuff? If so the head gaskets found in the available "kits" are the wrong ones for a build like this.
6. maybe the first thing you got right
7. can't go wrong with the big name solid lifters, use Comp if they are supplying the cam, pushrods I would look at something fairly highend like Manton length will have to measured when engine is assembled.
8. 30lbs SVOs minimum (42lbs max), yes 30lbs will work as on stock pressure they are closer too 32lbs , stock regulator is fine, Walbro 255l pump Racetronix is a good source for it
9. BBK works but whistles a bit and needs IAC circuit drilled
10. the coilpack conversion kits still use the optical part of the opti, only the stupid or those pandering too the stupid call the opti deletes, the opti is far better than given credit for, not perfect but not bad.

I know a lot of that is harsh and you are probably pretty offended but if you go forward with this plan it WILL be the nighmare you fear.
The car will need a lot of supporting modification to be ready for a motor like this, start there to gain experiance and to get a more realistic view of what you want.
Also consider setting a performance goal, dyno numbers are NOT a performance goal, track MPH and to a lesser extent ET are performance goals, chassis/driver can make a HUGE difference in ET less so MPH but I have seen high mph cars that wont ET even with traction so I don't think mph should be the only goal either.

Trust me I have made a lot of mistakes and prefer to help others avoid them, few years ago I had a cammed car that ran 15s, I have learned a little since, much of it by admitting I was doing thing wrong.

 

If you go with a single plane intake you might hit the 475 but it is a huge goal

with the mods in sig I only made 451 rwhp and 366 rwtq with a 13.68 compression ratio
but on a good air day with some weight reduction and a better 60ft I am sure It will still run a 10.40@130

you are looking for 9`s n/a I assume?

 

I agree with a lot that 96capricemgr said. Here's my observation, having seen a sccessful 500+ rwhp driver LT1 built and run. It cost $14K, BTW. Here's a link to one:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....2&postcount=77

EDIT: Those are NOT LE nor AI heads in the link. They were done by "LM".

1. Budget over $10,000 for the engine. That doesn't include the driveline mods you'll need.

2. Get a PRO engine builder to do the whole thing including all the design and purchasing all the parts. Pick one who has done a 600 fwhp(500+ rwhp) 396 LT1 successfully. They are out there, but there are not all that many. Your engine guy might be an assembler, but he's just going to take lots of your money putting together your mismash of parts.

If you continue on your present course you won't get anywhere near what you want, and you will spend BIG bucks just trying to get it to run. I can't emphasize too much that your chances of success with your plan are extremely small. I'd say ZERO, but you probably wouldn't believe that.

It's a shame to see folks get separated from their money with plans like these.

Jon

 

QUOTE:

1) custom ground solid roller with a .650 lift

The lift number has the least affect on making power

2) afr eliminator 210's

You CAN get there with these, but it will take a porter with alot of knowledge

3) eagle rotating assy. (forged & balanced)

Nothing wrong with Eagle stuff, probably more widely used in applications like this than any other.

4) either a poked lt-4 or splayed and poked lt-1

Either will do, splayed LT1 is better

5) lt-1 rebuild kit

Dont get caught here, a generic rebuild "kit" is junk, buy what you need seperately

6) I'd like to use the stock manifold ( obviously SLIGHTLY modified)

With an auto, aint gonna do it period, with a six speed and a 10 bolt with a 3.23 gear, MAYBE...most likely not....a super vic or vic E will do it.

7) What lifters and pushrods for solid roller? im lost.

Comp endurex, Isky redzone, Crower Hippo are THE ONLY options here

8) What # injectors? pressure regulator? gph fuel pump?

No spray, 40lb SVO's and a 255 pump

9) here's another controversy, which 58 mm TB?

Will take a Monoblade or 90mm LS1 style throttlebody.

10) how hard is it to convert lt-1 to coil packs? I dont know if opti is the way to go.

Opti will be ok if it is set up properly, LTCC setup is the best.


I made 463RWHP through a 4L60E, steel driveshaft, 9 inch rear with a detroit locker and drag radials with 2 hurt pistons on pump gas.

I make 470+ now with those fixed.

With a six speed and a 10 bolt I would make 510+rwhp

And buddy, I am gonna go ahead and tell ya. you aint gonna pick up the phone and "order" and engine like mine.

Seems like once you cross the 500 flywheel hp mark with a pumpgas 396 inch or less smallblock...it takes ALOT more to make a LITTLE bit more power.

You would be better off building a 396 with a PROVEN LE3 or Ai 200cc package on top. You will be WAY WAY more happy with it in the long run.

David

 

Advanced Induction has Rick Abare's car making what 520rwhp through an 8" converter, A4 and 9", 10.0 on the stock pcm, 9.88 with aftermarket management, over 3400lbs.
Mike Harris's Impala making 480rwhp through 8' ATI and A4 with a 8.5" both of those use LT1 intakes, mike's is still a stock pcm bracket races at 10.8s 124mph in a 3855lbs Impala, watched him run 11.1 spinning in 105F heat. Those are both 383s
Alek's car a M6 355 running a stock pcm made 480rwhp.
Those all have Advanced Induction ported LT1 heads.

I know of a couple other cars making this kind of power, having spent a LOT more on working aftermarket heads.

An f-body with this kind of power will pretty much require a rollbar just to keep the car from twisting up, not to mention dragstrip rules.

 

I only disagree with one thing here.If you are going solidroller you will be turning over 7k rpm and the opti will not last.Do an ltcc conversion and you will be good.

my top end I used crower hippo lifters and jesel sportsman series rockers
I still have the stock solidroller springs that came with the afr heads.

 

The factory ecm only goes to 7100 rpm, my solid roller peaks at 6600 rpm. I shift at 6700 and the opti has done fine, BUT and LTCC is the way to go.


96CAPRICEMGR

Abare is a full blown RACECAR on fuel

The others I am not sure of, but would tend to be pretty radical.

Nonetheless, what this guy wants to do is HARD, make no mistake.


David

 

so what every one here is saying is basicaly do an ls2 swap, throw a head and cam package at it and save 4 or 5 grand. Any arguements to that?

 

The PCM is only good til 7k after that you need an aftermarket DFI setup.

 

Keep in mind that if you DO decide to go the LSx route you will need a K member, transmission,ecm and harness to make it work in an LTx car.


David

 

What kind of ET's do you want? Or are you just wanting big dyno numbers? The engine it sounds like you're wanting is pretty serious for a weekend toy! I hate to bring bad news but I've learned from experiance that once you build a motor you better had better built a car to go with it or it was all a waste! If you have $7K to spend on an engine you really should save some of that for suspention, rear end, and driveline, (unless you want to be like me)! I've learned that a lower HP quality built motor and a good suspention setup can be much more effictive than just big numbers! If you've already setup you're car, ie. cage, subframe, DS loop, full suspention, rear axle then don't listen to me and Good luck!

 

I must have missed the $7k cap.....You will do good to do a STOCK rebuild shortblock with an LE or Ai top end for that money.


Again, if want a nice engine you can ENJOY and no constantly having to fawk with (like mine) At my power level it is BRAIN DAMAGE...I mean my car has VERY good street manners....BUT It is a high maintenance engine. ANY smallblock with 23* heads making 550 HP+ at the flywheel on pump gas IS gonna be work to keep it in shape. Just regular no problems maintenance is high, oil changes every 2000 miles($40), tires that it DESTROYS($400), fuel that it DRINKS(GEEZ!), regular trans services at 5000 miles($60).


Again, build a 383 with an LE3 or Ai 200cc package on top and enjoy the car.

They are PROVEN packages, build the shortblock, slide in the cam, bolt on the heads and intake...make 450rwhp with a six speed BAM!

Have fun burning rubber.


David

 

I must have understated the talent level of my engine builder, he has been putting cars into the nines consistently since the seventies. He also holds U.S. Patents on oiling systems for amc engines. He's pretty good.