Gearbox for 400lbs/ft of torque?
05-31-2013, 04:56 PM
#21
Lots to consider, I was just throwing out a not so obvious possibility.
OK, questions:
What kind of car?
When you say track is that road race or drag racing.
On road, do you do hiway mostly (speed limit?) or town.
What's your current rear end ratio? Is it easily/cheaply cheaply changed?
Tire size.
How critical is gas milage and amount of miles driven.
How available is a Muncie vs T5, etc where you are?
Cost for a trans there or parts, if you or someone local can rebuild/upgrade a T5, Muncie.
Again, chose parts that work together for what the car will be used for.
My locally daily driven 72 442 with stock 5.3, 3.42 1st gear T10, 2.73 rear. Good milage (22mpg city/hiway combined), nice cruise rpm (2200 on hiway), just fun to drive (gotta love a manual trans).
OK, questions:
What kind of car?
When you say track is that road race or drag racing.
On road, do you do hiway mostly (speed limit?) or town.
What's your current rear end ratio? Is it easily/cheaply cheaply changed?
Tire size.
How critical is gas milage and amount of miles driven.
How available is a Muncie vs T5, etc where you are?
Cost for a trans there or parts, if you or someone local can rebuild/upgrade a T5, Muncie.
Again, chose parts that work together for what the car will be used for.
My locally daily driven 72 442 with stock 5.3, 3.42 1st gear T10, 2.73 rear. Good milage (22mpg city/hiway combined), nice cruise rpm (2200 on hiway), just fun to drive (gotta love a manual trans).
05-31-2013, 05:24 PM
#23
Caterham 7 style car (http://media.caranddriver.com/images...-s-429x262.jpg)
When you say track is that road race or drag racing.
Road racing.
On road, do you do hiway mostly (speed limit?) or town.
Both. I live in a rural area so main roads are mostly separated by town/country roads.
What's your current rear end ratio? Is it easily/cheaply cheaply changed?
Tire size.
3.92. Not easily changed as other ratios of which there are only 2 or so are very rare to get hold of.
Tyres are 40 17's.
How critical is gas milage and amount of miles driven.
Gas mileage is not my primary concern. Miles probably 5000 at most a year.
How available is a Muncie vs T5, etc where you are?
No idea about Muncie's, probably quite rare. T5's from the Sierra Cosworth can be found but I am not sure if they are the same as the GM T5's.
Cost for a trans there or parts, if you or someone local can rebuild/upgrade a T5, Muncie.
I contacted a company who have an upgrade kit for the T5. No idea about Muncie's.
Again, chose parts that work together for what the car will be used for.
My locally daily driven 72 442 with stock 5.3, 3.42 1st gear T10, 2.73 rear. Good milage (22mpg city/hiway combined), nice cruise rpm (2200 on hiway), just fun to drive (gotta love a manual trans).[/QUOTE]
I'm off to bed now. Thanks again to all of you.
05-31-2013, 05:37 PM
#24
What kind of car?
Caterham 7 style car (http://media.caranddriver.com/images...-s-429x262.jpg)
Very cool car, light weight, lots of fun
When you say track is that road race or drag racing.
Road racing.
IMHO, an upgraded T5 will survive in road racing much better than drag racing
On road, do you do hiway mostly (speed limit?) or town.
Both. I live in a rural area so main roads are mostly separated by town/country roads.
If you keep your rear end, you'll need an OD regardless
What's your current rear end ratio? Is it easily/cheaply cheaply changed?
Tire size.
3.92. Not easily changed as other ratios of which there are only 2 or so are very rare to get hold of.
Tyres are 40 17's.
3.92 rear in a british car...this smells like it was behind a 4 cylinder. Is it going to be strong enough to live behind a V8? Is it a TR6 style IRS or the oddball Triumph Spitfire style?
How critical is gas milage and amount of miles driven.
Gas mileage is not my primary concern. Miles probably 5000 at most a year.
How available is a Muncie vs T5, etc where you are?
No idea about Muncie's, probably quite rare. T5's from the Sierra Cosworth can be found but I am not sure if they are the same as the GM T5's.
Cosworth, out of my limited expertise. Here you can buy a $300 T5 and erasily have $1500 in upgrade parts
Cost for a trans there or parts, if you or someone local can rebuild/upgrade a T5, Muncie.
I contacted a company who have an upgrade kit for the T5. No idea about Muncie's.
Again, chose parts that work together for what the car will be used for.
My locally daily driven 72 442 with stock 5.3, 3.42 1st gear T10, 2.73 rear. Good milage (22mpg city/hiway combined), nice cruise rpm (2200 on hiway), just fun to drive (gotta love a manual trans).
Caterham 7 style car (http://media.caranddriver.com/images...-s-429x262.jpg)
Very cool car, light weight, lots of fun
When you say track is that road race or drag racing.
Road racing.
IMHO, an upgraded T5 will survive in road racing much better than drag racing
On road, do you do hiway mostly (speed limit?) or town.
Both. I live in a rural area so main roads are mostly separated by town/country roads.
If you keep your rear end, you'll need an OD regardless
What's your current rear end ratio? Is it easily/cheaply cheaply changed?
Tire size.
3.92. Not easily changed as other ratios of which there are only 2 or so are very rare to get hold of.
Tyres are 40 17's.
3.92 rear in a british car...this smells like it was behind a 4 cylinder. Is it going to be strong enough to live behind a V8? Is it a TR6 style IRS or the oddball Triumph Spitfire style?
How critical is gas milage and amount of miles driven.
Gas mileage is not my primary concern. Miles probably 5000 at most a year.
How available is a Muncie vs T5, etc where you are?
No idea about Muncie's, probably quite rare. T5's from the Sierra Cosworth can be found but I am not sure if they are the same as the GM T5's.
Cosworth, out of my limited expertise. Here you can buy a $300 T5 and erasily have $1500 in upgrade parts
Cost for a trans there or parts, if you or someone local can rebuild/upgrade a T5, Muncie.
I contacted a company who have an upgrade kit for the T5. No idea about Muncie's.
Again, chose parts that work together for what the car will be used for.
My locally daily driven 72 442 with stock 5.3, 3.42 1st gear T10, 2.73 rear. Good milage (22mpg city/hiway combined), nice cruise rpm (2200 on hiway), just fun to drive (gotta love a manual trans).
[/QUOTE]Goodnight
05-31-2013, 06:39 PM
#25
9 Second Club
Is it using a Sierra diff ? There are certainly taller ratios available, and would be preferred.
If it is the 7" version....it's a light car, but I wouldnt hold my breath about it's survival, especially if it's a standard viscous unit.
A 4 speed here would be useless, you need the 5 speed. An uprated T5 will make the most sense and be the most cost effective solution.
However, I'd nearly be inclined just to bang in a good T5 and use it til it breaks, then you can look into a better gearset.
If it is the 7" version....it's a light car, but I wouldnt hold my breath about it's survival, especially if it's a standard viscous unit.
A 4 speed here would be useless, you need the 5 speed. An uprated T5 will make the most sense and be the most cost effective solution.
However, I'd nearly be inclined just to bang in a good T5 and use it til it breaks, then you can look into a better gearset.
06-01-2013, 12:36 AM
#26
Thanks again Steve,
Yes the Sierra rear diff but I plan on using the Quaife ATB torque biasing LSD.
I have contacted a company about a fully recon T5 with uprated gearset and its a good price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Coswo...item27d34d3bc2
Better than what I was planning. I just need to check what their reputation is like and also look at what else I will need to make the drive system work
i.e. Flywheel - 168T LS flywheel?
clutch - T5 Input shaft spline number? Clutch type?
release bearing - hydraulic operated or cable. (I think hydraulic as long as the actuator etc is not too bulky.
Yes the Sierra rear diff but I plan on using the Quaife ATB torque biasing LSD.
I have contacted a company about a fully recon T5 with uprated gearset and its a good price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Coswo...item27d34d3bc2
Better than what I was planning. I just need to check what their reputation is like and also look at what else I will need to make the drive system work
i.e. Flywheel - 168T LS flywheel?
clutch - T5 Input shaft spline number? Clutch type?
release bearing - hydraulic operated or cable. (I think hydraulic as long as the actuator etc is not too bulky.
06-01-2013, 08:14 AM
#28
Originally Posted by Garys 68
What's that differential rated for?
06-01-2013, 08:42 AM
#29
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Thanks again Steve,
Yes the Sierra rear diff but I plan on using the Quaife ATB torque biasing LSD.
I have contacted a company about a fully recon T5 with uprated gearset and its a good price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Coswo...item27d34d3bc2
Better than what I was planning. I just need to check what their reputation is like and also look at what else I will need to make the drive system work
i.e. Flywheel - 168T LS flywheel?
clutch - T5 Input shaft spline number? Clutch type?
release bearing - hydraulic operated or cable. (I think hydraulic as long as the actuator etc is not too bulky.
Yes the Sierra rear diff but I plan on using the Quaife ATB torque biasing LSD.
I have contacted a company about a fully recon T5 with uprated gearset and its a good price.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Coswo...item27d34d3bc2
Better than what I was planning. I just need to check what their reputation is like and also look at what else I will need to make the drive system work
i.e. Flywheel - 168T LS flywheel?
clutch - T5 Input shaft spline number? Clutch type?
release bearing - hydraulic operated or cable. (I think hydraulic as long as the actuator etc is not too bulky.
Once you have that, there is a thread that Gary started and I contributed to, that goes over all the parts that you will need to make it work behind a LSx engine.
Andrew
06-01-2013, 09:52 AM
#32
The 3.92 rear gear might be a little short without O.D., especially with relatively short tires.
Also check out this spreadsheet...it should have more info that you need...
http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/Gears.xls
Andrew
Also check out this spreadsheet...it should have more info that you need...
http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/Gears.xls
Andrew
That spreadsheet is superb
Thank you.Putting in the data as follows, 3.9 diff, T5 gearbox and 40 17's the ratio looks spot on.
2nd gear to 60mph, 70 at 3700rpm in 4th and 2400rpm in 5th at 70, and theoretical top speed of 163mph at 5500rpm in 5th.
Looks spot on to me
Last edited by TableLeg; 06-01-2013 at 12:13 PM.
06-01-2013, 04:28 PM
#33
Not had much luck with the T5 using a GM input shaft. I guess it's just because the T5's over here are from Sierra Cosworths.
So unless I can get a T5 with uprated gearset from the states and import it at a decent price i'll end up having to settle for the cheapest option here in the UK a TKO600.
I'm still looking.
So unless I can get a T5 with uprated gearset from the states and import it at a decent price i'll end up having to settle for the cheapest option here in the UK a TKO600.
I'm still looking.
06-01-2013, 05:12 PM
#34
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
Not had much luck with the T5 using a GM input shaft. I guess it's just because the T5's over here are from Sierra Cosworths.
So unless I can get a T5 with uprated gearset from the states and import it at a decent price i'll end up having to settle for the cheapest option here in the UK a TKO600.
I'm still looking.
So unless I can get a T5 with uprated gearset from the states and import it at a decent price i'll end up having to settle for the cheapest option here in the UK a TKO600.
I'm still looking.
If it was my car, I would give G-Force a call, and have them build you a helical cut dog-ring T5.
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp
Andrew
06-01-2013, 05:23 PM
#35
If you can machine a 1/2" adapter plate (the ford input shaft is 1/2" longer, ford trans has different trans to bell pattern) and an adapter pilot bushing (ford has larger OD), you should be able to mate a Ford trans to a 621 bellhousing, use a ford disc and the sach 1050 flywheel and old school 11" GM pressure plate.
06-01-2013, 05:30 PM
#36
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (7)
If you can machine a 1/2" adapter plate (the ford input shaft is 1/2" longer, ford trans has different trans to bell pattern) and an adapter pilot bushing (ford has larger OD), you should be able to mate a Ford trans to a 621 bellhousing, use a ford disc and the sach 1050 flywheel and old school 11" GM pressure plate.
I was just thinking...Couldn't he replace the Ford bearing retainer for a GM one? This would solve the indexing problem with the 621 bellhousing.
Since we use the LS7 bearing location with the 621 bellhousing, maybe he can have a bronze bushing made to go in the LS1 bearing location and the I.D. of the bushing can be sized for the Ford pilot size.
What do you think?
Andrew
06-01-2013, 07:17 PM
#37
Over at corvetteforum, most simply machine the 1/2" plate for the ford bearing retainer. That takes care of the ford input shaft length and the bearing reatainer diameter, and the different bell, trans bolt patterns. Then an outer flange pilot bushing machined.
Hypothetically, you might be able to use the Ford trans with ford input shaft as is. The bearing retainers are interchangable. Machine a pilot bushing in the inner crank flange, use a ford disc, LS1 flywheel/pressure plate, BUT, you would need a GM bell that would hold an LS1 flywheel/pressure plate, AND maintain the GM input shaft spacing, AND have the ford trans/bellhousing pattern. That bellhousing actually exists, from a mid 90s astro van, but still a lot of unknowns with that combo.
BTW, those bellhousings are about as available as emu eggs here. I did see one on ebay from a seller who knew it could be used for this application, he wanted a premium.
My brain kinda hurts from thinking about that combination.....
Hypothetically, you might be able to use the Ford trans with ford input shaft as is. The bearing retainers are interchangable. Machine a pilot bushing in the inner crank flange, use a ford disc, LS1 flywheel/pressure plate, BUT, you would need a GM bell that would hold an LS1 flywheel/pressure plate, AND maintain the GM input shaft spacing, AND have the ford trans/bellhousing pattern. That bellhousing actually exists, from a mid 90s astro van, but still a lot of unknowns with that combo.
BTW, those bellhousings are about as available as emu eggs here. I did see one on ebay from a seller who knew it could be used for this application, he wanted a premium.
My brain kinda hurts from thinking about that combination.....
Last edited by garys 68; 06-01-2013 at 08:25 PM.
06-02-2013, 04:26 AM
#38
Thanks again guys
A lot of what you've just said might as well have been in a completely different language to me
It also seems a very complicated way to achieve what I need. I would much rather be able to fit the gearbox and be done with it if you know what I mean.
I can get a T5 over here, with uprated gearset for a good price but it comes with the Cosworth sized input shaft. Therefore I do not know if it is at all possible to have the input shaft changed to a GM sized one or not. I did ask the company who the sells this gearbox but the reply was that it was a Sierra Cosworth sized input shaft.
I can also get a suitbale clutch for over 500bhp to match the T5 so that then leaves the mating between the clutch and the flywheel which I imagine is not possible.
A lot of what you've just said might as well have been in a completely different language to me
It also seems a very complicated way to achieve what I need. I would much rather be able to fit the gearbox and be done with it if you know what I mean.
I can get a T5 over here, with uprated gearset for a good price but it comes with the Cosworth sized input shaft. Therefore I do not know if it is at all possible to have the input shaft changed to a GM sized one or not. I did ask the company who the sells this gearbox but the reply was that it was a Sierra Cosworth sized input shaft.
I can also get a suitbale clutch for over 500bhp to match the T5 so that then leaves the mating between the clutch and the flywheel which I imagine is not possible.
06-02-2013, 04:35 AM
#39
9 Second Club
Clutch will be the easy bit.
Sorting a spigot bearing or adaptor for that part, again would be easy.
The awkward part here is the bellhousing, and is any bellhousing the correct height to suit the Cossie box.
So..
What length is the spline and input shaft on the Word Class T5 in the US ?
And likewise, what length are the Cossie versions ( Gears etc should be able to advise here )
Once you know this, then you can decide what is needed to make the Cossie box fit.
But also ask, there are various forums in the UK some of the guys on the V8 Forum will be more familiar, about hot rods, drag stuff etc where there are loads of cars with US engines, and probably a huge amount of US T5's knocking about that could be rebuilt locally.
That may simplify the installation.
So put the T5 query out there, and ask if there are any US WC T5's about second hand. Condition isnt that important really as you'll get it rebuilt. They might even have a SBC bellhousing already which is the same fitment as far as I know apart from one bolt.
Sorting a spigot bearing or adaptor for that part, again would be easy.
The awkward part here is the bellhousing, and is any bellhousing the correct height to suit the Cossie box.
So..
What length is the spline and input shaft on the Word Class T5 in the US ?
And likewise, what length are the Cossie versions ( Gears etc should be able to advise here )
Once you know this, then you can decide what is needed to make the Cossie box fit.
But also ask, there are various forums in the UK some of the guys on the V8 Forum will be more familiar, about hot rods, drag stuff etc where there are loads of cars with US engines, and probably a huge amount of US T5's knocking about that could be rebuilt locally.
That may simplify the installation.
So put the T5 query out there, and ask if there are any US WC T5's about second hand. Condition isnt that important really as you'll get it rebuilt. They might even have a SBC bellhousing already which is the same fitment as far as I know apart from one bolt.
06-02-2013, 05:20 AM
#40
Thanks Steve
I am seriously starting to wonder about my engine and transmission choices.
The main problem being that I know little about American V8's or transmissions or even US cars for that matter.
And the questions I have asked only seem to show it will not be as straight forward as I thought it would be.
I originally looked on roadcarcraft http://www.roadcraftuk.co.uk/index.p...te=common/home (the UK car spares supplier) and they can supply all the parts. A gearbox (albeit a Tko600) with 26 spline GM input shaft, a CNC'd bellhousing for mating to a LS engine and the other bits and pieces needed to complete the job.
This would obviously cost a lot more than buying from the states but it seems to be a straightforward way of doing things by comparison don't you think.
I have read about the issues with the Tko600 shifting but have also read that these issues seem to have been resolved with some modifications to the boxes like by these people http://www.libertysgears.com/ with reference to this page http://www.w8ji.com/tko_600_shifting_problems.htm.
I am seriously starting to wonder about my engine and transmission choices.
The main problem being that I know little about American V8's or transmissions or even US cars for that matter.
And the questions I have asked only seem to show it will not be as straight forward as I thought it would be.
I originally looked on roadcarcraft http://www.roadcraftuk.co.uk/index.p...te=common/home (the UK car spares supplier) and they can supply all the parts. A gearbox (albeit a Tko600) with 26 spline GM input shaft, a CNC'd bellhousing for mating to a LS engine and the other bits and pieces needed to complete the job.
This would obviously cost a lot more than buying from the states but it seems to be a straightforward way of doing things by comparison don't you think.
I have read about the issues with the Tko600 shifting but have also read that these issues seem to have been resolved with some modifications to the boxes like by these people http://www.libertysgears.com/ with reference to this page http://www.w8ji.com/tko_600_shifting_problems.htm.